HOI4 is dead, long live HOI5!

[acarerdogan]

Dear Devs,

First of all, I’d like to say that I’m a big fan of all your games (own most of them) and especially the HOI series. And as a HOI veteran since HOI-1, I’d say I’ve had enough experience to point out some issues that were bugging me for some time now.

I’ll say at the beginning what I’m going to say at the end: HOI4 is dead, time to bury it and move on.

I played HOI4 for many hundreds of hours and had a lot of good times. Then why do I say such a thing? Well, one reason is that I love the genre and the era and there are not many games like it. However this game bugged me so much since its launch I don’t even know where to begin. But I can say that the final straw was the release of CK3. Because it was such a GOOD game, I couldn’t believe you guys could make something that great, which made me even more annoyed about HO4. (Note: I never once opened HOI4 after the CK3 launch and I don’t think I ever will).

So, here is a list of my complaints in a random order:

1. It’s been 4 years since the launch and you’re still “SELLING” me focus trees? For real? Modders have made much better focus trees years ago and I’ve been using them anyway, so thanks I won’t take it.
2. Also, how hard it is for you to make focus trees for every nation? I mean… Come on! Unpaid modders can create excellent content in a week and you (people who get paid to do this) can’t even make a decent Soviet focus tree in 4 years? I’m not talking about Honduras mind you, the SOVIET UNION.
3. Game was such an empty garbage at its launch, I can’t believe I paid for it at the time. There was no Manchuko, no puppets, no espionage, no naval modules, no FUEL. Did it honestly take you 3 years to figure out that fuel might be important in a WW2 game?
4. Since you finally added fuel, when are you planning to add “supplies” as a consumable resource? You know, the thing even HOI1 had!!! I’m asking this because I still can’t get my head around the fact that my 5 million strong standing army doesn’t consume a single can of beans and have absolutely ZERO burden on my economy.
5. I don’t know whose idea it was, but “Focus Trees” are just… No. Just no. A flat out bad idea. Please don’t use it in HOI5. Waiting 35-70 days for a game changing event that makes every other mechanic useless… Just why? Why would I even bother with diplomatic mechanics such as relations, asking for alliance, asking for military access, espionage, influence etc when I can just “1 click-ZBAM-youaremyALLYnowLOL” them?
6. Following on that, honestly, who gives a shit about +/- country relations? Anyone? What does it do anyway? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Yeah they can hate you for -200 but you can make the best deal with them through a focus. So why bother?
7. Why is this game soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo laggy?? I upgraded my PC 3 times since HOI4 launch and still can’t get a decent fps. I thought this was inevitable in Paradox games, but then I saw how well CK3 worked. (Also, as mentioned above in article 4, maybe if you had added “supplies”, then every single country wouldn’t be able make 1500 divisions, then the game wouldn’t be this laggy!)
8. It’s been 4 years since launch and still the German AI tries to invade Poland and France simultaneously and fails miserably. Not to mention it utterly fails to take on Norway. I mean… Come on! HOI1 and HOI2 AI’s were much better at this. Unless I’m playing Germany (or have an AI improvement mod), I get zero satisfaction from a single player game.
9. I still don’t know why I can’t get a planning bonus on naval invasions? You know, on one of the most heavily planned military operation types? The only reason I can think of is you don’t even care?
10. When can I get anything more than Generic ministers and Generic companies for the MAJORS?! Oh but you’ve given us bicycle battalions? Wow, such a great addition that nobody has ever used, ever.

I can go on but I think you get the picture. It’s pretty obvious that you don’t really care about HOI4 anymore and you never fully did. But it’s ok. We all had some fun with this game and I think I paid for enough DLCs in return for those fun times.

As I said above, HOI4 is dead, time to bury it and move on. I’ll be playing CK3 now, while waiting for your HOI5 announcement…
Cheers

 

[orochi2k]

while waiting for your HOI5 announcement…

I think it will take quite awhile.

 

[Grzegorz Grzybek]

while waiting for your HOI5 announcement

Wouldn't you like to wait for Victoria 3 first?

 

[acarerdogan]

Wouldn't you like to wait for Victoria 3 first?

I'd murder for it.

 

[Dlin369]

Regarding points 1 and 2, One of the best marketing decisions PdX made was making all the in game portraits paintings rather than use photos. That means in order to capture the Hoi4 style Modders either need to learn how to paint (which is a hurdle) or change everything to photographs on their own.

Looking at BTFB, you can see that PDX dlcs don’t sell trees (well they do, but the trees are meant to highlight the other parts of the dlc).PDX sells art, music, and portraits - things that are difficult for Hoi4 modders outside the big mods to directly compete with. For regular expansions they also sell mechanics and arguably balanced trees with regards to the rest of vanilla.

so regarding trees, modders can and routinely do make better trees than vanilla, and I’m sure the staff are conscious of that. Which is why they usually do things modders really can’t do or have a hard time doing

 

[TalyonUngol]

There is no tree that a modder created that the devs haven't made one better for. Sorry, but a tree for Bhutan doesn't mean that Modders do it better.

 

[acarerdogan]

There is no tree that a modder created that the devs haven't made one better for. Sorry, but a tree for Bhutan doesn't mean that Modders do it better.

If I have to wait 3 years for a decent Germany tree and 4+ years for a Soviet one, I don't care about how good it is. It means they simply don't care as much as the modders who do it in their free time.

And no, modders do it much, MUCH better.

 

[him_15]

HoI 4 is only half way though IMO.

 

[acarerdogan]

HoI 4 is only half way though IMO.

That's my point. It is so badly optimized that %90 players cant even finish a game because of lag. And the whole system (the AI, the focus trees etc) just doesn't work. It's better to let it die and use the CK3 engine for HOI5.

 

[Mr_Dimento]

I do agree there are many problems in HOI4. Slow development, focus trees unchanged since launch, balance issues, focus tree pacing issues, technology imbalances, etc

 

[Cobannos]

Well, I have to disagree on most points. Either I never really experinced those problems besides on non-historical when the AI went batshit craycray, but that's on me then, or they are not real issues, at least for me. DLC foci are much better IMHO but that depends on personal preference. If you don't want 'em, just don't buy 'em. Easy solution.

Although I have to agree that late game lag is horrendous, starting to get really annoying around '43-'44. Some mechanic to reduce the AI division spam should be in order. It really bugs me that the AI just spams divisions not even knowing how to handle them. With my 4 full 24-armies I can wipe out the Soviets or Germans with their one bazillion divisions because they attrition themselves to death etc.. What's the point in having one bazillion divisions without any real fighting capability anyway?

 

[LordLemos]

I would like to add that the naval modules gave hope to everyone that we would have tanks modules and that would be amazing, a closer to HoI3 with visual aid, but after it we are being selled focus trees. IMHO I don't see a problem to get FT if the game is strong, but it has so many issues that maybe is a good idea to get back and start thinking what went wrong, get the good things from HoI1, 2 and 3 and make a better game.

 

[TalyonUngol]

If I have to wait 3 years for a decent Germany tree and 4+ years for a Soviet one, I don't care about how good it is. It means they simply don't care as much as the modders who do it in their free time.

And no, modders do it much, MUCH better.

I have not seen a modder tree out-do a tree done by the devs. Ive played Rt56 and I -HATE- the italian tree. I rather play the current italy in vanilla than that garbage in RT56.

 

[bitmode]

I can go on but I think you get the picture. It’s pretty obvious that you don’t really care about HOI4 anymore and you never fully did. But it’s ok. We all had some fun with this game and I think I paid for enough DLCs in return for those fun times.

As I said above, HOI4 is dead, time to bury it and move on.

While I mostly agree with you in terms of design mistakes etc, my outlook is rather the opposite. Hoi4 is still raking in heaps of money and even when hoi5 does eventually come around it will take a lot of lessons from 4 -- just not the ones your are hoping for. E.g. you can bet that hoi5 will have focus trees again (or something very similar) because this is what enabled them to really cash in on the alt-history craze. It is also not unlikely the same team will make it, who seem to be rather comfortable with the design decisions in hoi4.

My money is on hoi6. Playing the loooong game.

 

[Rashie]

Id be shocked if we saw a HoI5 release within the next 4 years, minimum.

 

[Áurum]

There is no tree that a modder created that the devs haven't made one better for. Sorry, but a tree for Bhutan doesn't mean that Modders do it better.

Really? Just compare the content Russia has in Kaiserreich and the content it has in vanilla and cry. Same for the USA. If you think modders are worse than devs at trees, you haven't tried enough mods.

Dear Devs,

First of all, I’d like to say that I’m a big fan of all your games (own most of them) and especially the HOI series. And as a HOI veteran since HOI-1, I’d say I’ve had enough experience to point out some issues that were bugging me for some time now.

I’ll say at the beginning what I’m going to say at the end: HOI4 is dead, time to bury it and move on.

I played HOI4 for many hundreds of hours and had a lot of good times. Then why do I say such a thing? Well, one reason is that I love the genre and the era and there are not many games like it. However this game bugged me so much since its launch I don’t even know where to begin. But I can say that the final straw was the release of CK3. Because it was such a GOOD game, I couldn’t believe you guys could make something that great, which made me even more annoyed about HO4. (Note: I never once opened HOI4 after the CK3 launch and I don’t think I ever will).

So, here is a list of my complaints in a random order:

1. It’s been 4 years since the launch and you’re still “SELLING” me focus trees? For real? Modders have made much better focus trees years ago and I’ve been using them anyway, so thanks I won’t take it.
2. Also, how hard it is for you to make focus trees for every nation? I mean… Come on! Unpaid modders can create excellent content in a week and you (people who get paid to do this) can’t even make a decent Soviet focus tree in 4 years? I’m not talking about Honduras mind you, the SOVIET UNION.
3. Game was such an empty garbage at its launch, I can’t believe I paid for it at the time. There was no Manchuko, no puppets, no espionage, no naval modules, no FUEL. Did it honestly take you 3 years to figure out that fuel might be important in a WW2 game?
4. Since you finally added fuel, when are you planning to add “supplies” as a consumable resource? You know, the thing even HOI1 had!!! I’m asking this because I still can’t get my head around the fact that my 5 million strong standing army doesn’t consume a single can of beans and have absolutely ZERO burden on my economy.
5. I don’t know whose idea it was, but “Focus Trees” are just… No. Just no. A flat out bad idea. Please don’t use it in HOI5. Waiting 35-70 days for a game changing event that makes every other mechanic useless… Just why? Why would I even bother with diplomatic mechanics such as relations, asking for alliance, asking for military access, espionage, influence etc when I can just “1 click-ZBAM-youaremyALLYnowLOL” them?
6. Following on that, honestly, who gives a shit about +/- country relations? Anyone? What does it do anyway? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Yeah they can hate you for -200 but you can make the best deal with them through a focus. So why bother?
7. Why is this game soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo laggy?? I upgraded my PC 3 times since HOI4 launch and still can’t get a decent fps. I thought this was inevitable in Paradox games, but then I saw how well CK3 worked. (Also, as mentioned above in article 4, maybe if you had added “supplies”, then every single country wouldn’t be able make 1500 divisions, then the game wouldn’t be this laggy!)
8. It’s been 4 years since launch and still the German AI tries to invade Poland and France simultaneously and fails miserably. Not to mention it utterly fails to take on Norway. I mean… Come on! HOI1 and HOI2 AI’s were much better at this. Unless I’m playing Germany (or have an AI improvement mod), I get zero satisfaction from a single player game.
9. I still don’t know why I can’t get a planning bonus on naval invasions? You know, on one of the most heavily planned military operation types? The only reason I can think of is you don’t even care?
10. When can I get anything more than Generic ministers and Generic companies for the MAJORS?! Oh but you’ve given us bicycle battalions? Wow, such a great addition that nobody has ever used, ever.

I can go on but I think you get the picture. It’s pretty obvious that you don’t really care about HOI4 anymore and you never fully did. But it’s ok. We all had some fun with this game and I think I paid for enough DLCs in return for those fun times.

As I said above, HOI4 is dead, time to bury it and move on. I’ll be playing CK3 now, while waiting for your HOI5 announcement…
Cheers

Focus trees do have their purpose. If used well, they are meant to tell a story. Just see the German Socialist Republic focus tree in TNO and it's like reading its story. When you reach the focus called "This isn't working" you know something is wrong. And the next focuses will give you very bad feelings. Or just ask yourself why the Burgundian focus tree names are hidden if you don't play Burgundy.

Focuses that just give free war goals to railroad the AI to war are a very bad implementation, yes, but from the political or narrative side, they can be very interesting.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Really? Just compare the content Russia has in Kaiserreich and the content it has in vanilla and cry. Same for the USA. If you think modders are worse than devs at trees, you haven't tried enough mods.


Focus trees do have their purpose. If used well, they are meant to tell a story. Just see the German Socialist Republic focus tree in TNO and it's like reading its story. When you reach the focus called "This isn't working" you know something is wrong. And the next focuses will give you very bad feelings. Or just ask yourself why the Burgundian focus tree names are hidden if you don't play Burgundy.

Focuses that just give free war goals to railroad the AI to war are a very bad implementation, yes, but from the political or narrative side, they can be very interesting.

Yes and when the Soviets come out with their tree in the next DLC it will more than likely be 10X better than any tree. I despise Kaiserreich personally as they removed alot of what I enjoy of vanila, which was the formable nations. Meaning, minor nations are even worse with that mod which isn't fun to me.

RT56 is the only good tree mod out there imo and even then I prefre playing vanilla trees and the DLC trees.

but thats just my opinoin.

 

[Áurum]

Yes and when the Soviets come out with their tree in the next DLC it will more than likely be 10X better than any tree. I despise Kaiserreich personally as they removed alot of what I enjoy of vanila, which was the formable nations. Meaning, minor nations are even worse with that mod which isn't fun to me.

RT56 is the only good tree mod out there imo and even then I prefre playing vanilla trees and the DLC trees.

but thats just my opinoin.

If you expect meme formable nations, then Kaiserriech won't have that. It has Central America, Yugoslavia, Italy, Greater Poland, United Kingdom, Greater Arabia, Unified China, Unified India, Danubian Federation, Greater Greece, Greater Romania... There are less formable nations, but many minors have content to expand, get new lands and cores and become strong. They often have overpowered focuses too to compensate for being minors. It's just that there's no Byzantium memes.

Honestly, if you don't like Kaiserreich, you haven't played enough. Many, many minors are fun and can become strong.

 

[RELee]

I am going to close this thread before it becomes what I believe it to be destined to be, a real troll fest.

There are so many ways to be helpful in improving this game and getting help with technical issues that I don't believe a complaint thread like this is needed. Suggestions are freely asked for in the Suggestion thread, there is a tech support forum for problems as well as a technical support helpdesk, and there is a Bug Reporting forum for pointing out issues that may need some loving care. The developers take steps upon every released DLC to address issues with free patches. The DLC is optional. No one is required to purchase them, but they go a long way insuring that the company continues to make money to help pay for improvements to the game.

There are no redeeming virtues to this thread at this point.