HOI4 - Development Diary - October 5th 2016

[kaspar42]

Hearts of Iron IV
For HOI4 we changed the supply flow system to be instant and based around bottlenecks instead. The goal being that it should be easily apparent what is causing your frontline problems. We also moved to larger areas to get a better manage the complexity for calculations and display to player.

What I would love to see in a supply system, is the dynamic of having to halt an advance to allow supply to catch up. This would require each supply region to have a supply stockpile with can be depleted, and for units to use drastically more supplies when in combat than out of. Is this something you could implement in the future?
Right now, supply problems are most easily solved by advancing to spread your units out over more regions.

 

[alanschu]

as for air, I am not happy with it, but HOI3's air system was much worse in my book. People generally ignored it completely so they wouldnt have to mess with it.

Your current air system reminds me a lot of what Matrix Games' War in the Pacific does. It's not perfect of course but I think that you're on an interesting track with it as I like how WITP deals with a lot of the air combat stuff. I hope you can keep iterating on it to nail it down in a way that feels great! Good luck!

 

[Soranya]

It might not be so bad if people went back and actually experienced how stuff was rather than what they remember with rose-tinted glasses. The HOI3 ai was atrocious at a lot of things and could not adapt to anything, its just that people dont remember and exagerate a lot. HOI4 ai beats it in most fields even with 3 expansions behind it, although there are still areas where the HOI3 is is better for sure.

as for air, I am not happy with it, but HOI3's air system was much worse in my book. People generally ignored it completely so they wouldnt have to mess with it.

Its true that the HOI3 AI was not adaptive at all, but at least if you tried to stick with the historic course of the game you had something to call resitance - in HOI4 you can basically do whatever you want and you will win in the end...

And cudos for wanting to improve the Supply system. I hope the Strategic element of starving enemies of Fuel will come to this game.

 

[sage2]

It might not be so bad if people went back and actually experienced how stuff was rather than what they remember with rose-tinted glasses. The HOI3 ai was atrocious at a lot of things and could not adapt to anything, its just that people dont remember and exagerate a lot. HOI4 ai beats it in most fields even with 3 expansions behind it, although there are still areas where the HOI3 is is better for sure.

as for air, I am not happy with it, but HOI3's air system was much worse in my book. People generally ignored it completely so they wouldnt have to mess with it.

I've been playing a lot of HOI3 lately. The HOI3 AI isn't very good -- but my impressions is that it absolutely does / doesn't do some things that desperately needed for HOI4:

1) If I move friendly troops into a line with allies, the allies will slow move troops elsewhere onto the front. This is the right behavior as it avoids going drastically over supply. This also feels 'immersive' in that those provinces become 'my' sector of the front. HOI4 doesn't do that.

2) No random denuding fronts and better per-front division allocations in general.

3) Better at avoiding encirclements. AI makes getting successful encirclements quite a bit harder than HOI4.

4) Better air allocations (no starting barbarosa with no air cover).

In my (strong) opinion, discussing / hinting at DLC is premature. HOI4 needs at least another major patch to improve the critical issue.

 

[safe-keeper]

Hidden gem of an observation: Earlier versions of HoI displayed maps that provided instant and clean visual information to the gamer.

In this game of "Design a wargame," I'd encourage Paradox to choose the "cartography" focus instead of the "artwork" focus.

Example: when zoomed out in HoI4, the terrain disappears.
Suggestion: allow players to see terrain at different levels of zoom out.

HoI4 is a great game based on a long tradition. Dip into that tradition and drink deeply from that part which was good: basic cartography

Keep up the good work, Paradox!

I miss War in the East's system where you could hit a key to hide all information -- units, map colurs to show who controls which provinces, battle indicators, and so on -- and show only the map and borders. It was hugely useful.

In Hearts of Iron 4, you need to zoom in and out to control what the game shows you, when this could easily have been controlled by hot keys. It's a good system in theory, but when 3D models, battle indicators, counters, and battle planner lines clutter up my view and I just want to see the terrain, or frontlines, or even simple things like where exactly the frontline or a national border runs, it's just annoying.

 

[Serathion]

Podcat using NATO counters. Blasphemy!

 

[safe-keeper]

That 50 likes, 50 dislikes....

See @podcat

The direction you guys have picked, is really swimming upstream.

No other dev dairies for any other PDX product get this kind of mixed response. People are upset, and imho, rightfully so. Perhaps you guys can still turn this around and sell your different vision for HOI4 to the fans, but as I said, youre swimming upstream to do it, its going to be very difficult to win those of us who are dissatisfied with the new direction of HOI4 without making some concessions to us.

Really? People weren't this angry when they released HOI3, which was, from what I heard, even more "broken" on launch than HOI4, and which was also pretty different from previous HOI titles. Someone dug up threads from back then which were very similar to the ones posted now.

Since you brought up rail....

Isnt it odd that you can rail deploy IE Strategic Redeployment on rail, in provinces that uh...absolutely do not have rail roads. Like Strat-deploying across the Sahara...

How does that work lol?

Not to mention, why is the movement rate, supply through-put, etc, the same for every province on the map? Doesnt matter if its Colon in Panama (one of the smallest provinces) or one in Siberia.

The supply through put and movement costs are the same. That makes zero sense.

Now that you mention it -- yes, absolutely. Would be cool if there was a cap on how many units could be strat-moved in a single state, based on infrastructure.

Europe Engulfed, a board game I keep referring to, has a strat-move system that allows you to quickly move units across the map. Thing is, each nation has its own cap -- Germany can move seven blocks, while Italy, I believe, can move only two. Also, you can limit Germany's strat-move cap for a turn through strategic bombing raids.

I wouldn't mind a system that calculated how many units could be strat-moved at once globally, and how many could be moved through each state. Abstracted, sure, but a beginning nonetheless. Good idea!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Really? People weren't this angry when they released HOI3, which was, from what I heard, even more "broken" on launch than HOI4...

 

[Alex_brunius]

You forgot one thing that goes directly against reality: the farther you are from your capital or supply source (because irl there is one) the better your logistic situation can become, as the more provinces of a state you get, the more supply you get, even if those recently gotten provinces are farther from your supply source than the ones you already had. It is absurd. And very counterintuitive.

But that is only valid while your still in the same supply area. Once you get to the next area it repeats and you start at low levels again...

So overall in the big picture your not actually getting more supplies for moving further away.

And on top of this you have the -50% supply from occupied territory still being applied (AFAIK), so home will always supply more then abroad.

 

[nkibilko]

It's weird that something from 2002 looks so "old" and outdated to me. There is music from 2002 that i still consider "new", i remember that year so clearly... That feeling of finally knowing what "old people" were talking about when i was younger.

 

[Emren]

That 50 likes, 50 dislikes....

See @podcat

The direction you guys have picked, is really swimming upstream.

No other dev dairies for any other PDX product get this kind of mixed response. People are upset, and imho, rightfully so. Perhaps you guys can still turn this around and sell your different vision for HOI4 to the fans, but as I said, youre swimming upstream to do it, its going to be very difficult to win those of us who are dissatisfied with the new direction of HOI4 without making some concessions to us.

Oh, come on. In the diaries before launch, it was very clear that this game was going in a very different direction. You should not be surprised at the changes. And based on your join date, you should, be now, be used to the Paradox approach - which is, launch, fix, expand, fix, expand, fix, ad nauseum. No doubt HOI4 will be very different down the road, and a more satisfying experience altogether. But you need to be patient...

 

[DominusNovus]

Hidden gem of an observation: Earlier versions of HoI displayed maps that provided instant and clean visual information to the gamer.

In this game of "Design a wargame," I'd encourage Paradox to choose the "cartography" focus instead of the "artwork" focus.

Example: when zoomed out in HoI4, the terrain disappears.
Suggestion: allow players to see terrain at different levels of zoom out.

HoI4 is a great game based on a long tradition. Dip into that tradition and drink deeply from that part which was good: basic cartography

Keep up the good work, Paradox!

Even when zoomed in, its not 100% clear what the terrain is (maybe 90%). EU4 has a simple terrain mapmode, and its not even a wargame.

 

[Uberbrandon]

Because my available gaming time is very limited (two kids under 3!) I'm holding off on playing until things are a little more refined and immersive. This DD just made me nostalgic .

However, seeing the evolution of the systems actually makes the current system a little more clear to me (I started back in HOI 1 when I was 14!) oh god has life changed since then...

 

[seattle]

It's weird that something from 2002 looks so "old" and outdated to me. There is music from 2002 that i still consider "new", i remember that year so clearly... That feeling of finally knowing what "old people" were talking about when i was younger.

Well, a mixture of Moore's Law and PDS gradually comprehending usability engineering is a proper explanation for that phenomenon.
As for your music analogy: 1987's Appetite for Destruction sounds newer and fresher than anything the music industry dishes out today.

 

[Krafty]

A chunk of those dislikes are likely people frustrated that we've gotten two dev diaries in a row with no information on game development, which follows a general trend since release. Everyone at Paradox should learn from Wiz, he's far and away the best person they have at communicating with the fan base.

Very true. Though people have seemed to overwelmingly agree that we need a new direction, and it seems to be the general consensus that we become more historical and realistic, and perhaps examine some past systems in previous games that we enjoyed that just need a little tweaking and to be reintroduced in HOI4.

Along with that people are lamenting the AI, and alot of things that we've lost in the shuffle, like a terrain map mode, air commanders, fuel, etc.

 

[Krafty]

Oh, come on. In the diaries before launch, it was very clear that this game was going in a very different direction. You should not be surprised at the changes. And based on your join date, you should, be now, be used to the Paradox approach - which is, launch, fix, expand, fix, expand, fix, ad nauseum. No doubt HOI4 will be very different down the road, and a more satisfying experience altogether. But you need to be patient...

Correct. I am not surprised. Nor is anyone else.

The point is, that the direction they chose is a failure in most peoples eyes. We would like a new direction. Many things work very well, im not a fan of National Focuses, but they are overwelmingly liked. The production system is fantastic. I see almost no complaints over this. Its the broad plan set forth before release, that now after release, is clear to many that it was not the best course. Sandboxy simplified grand strategy with WW2 flavor, isnt as attractive to many (a majority) as a more simulation style (but not replaying ww2 exactly as it happened, we dont want to be WiTE/WiTW/WiTP) game with solid believable AI.

I am very familiar with this process, and thats why im saying what im saying. Ive seen this company for a decade. Along with launch, fix, expand, fix, expand, etc, is games having an initial "direction" and that "direction" being changed due to fan and customer reaction and criticism.

EU4s coalition's comes to mind.

They are very open to listening to the community, and the community is saying "We want something different" with a large caveat of "After the AI is challenging and working".

 

[Krafty]

Even when zoomed in, its not 100% clear what the terrain is (maybe 90%). EU4 has a simple terrain mapmode, and its not even a wargame.

In Asia its horrible. Hills, mountains, and deserts all around western and northern China all look exactly the same. Without mousing over each province its nigh impossible to tell which kind of terrain it is.

Marshes are hard to see. Hills are rough. Mountains are only obvious if you know world geography. I know theres mountains between Spain and France, I know where the Urals are, but if I didnt, id be struggling each and every time to figure out what the terrain is. Is it a hill? Is it a mountain?

A simplified terrain map mode is in every other product....why on earth youd leave it out of HOI4 is beyond me.

 

[Cairo-East]

Man... HOI1.

So much fun, so much time adjusting the slider settings.

 

[nkibilko]

Even when zoomed in, its not 100% clear what the terrain is (maybe 90%). EU4 has a simple terrain mapmode, and its not even a wargame.

If i remember correctly all you have to do is hover your mouse pointer over the province in question and it tells you the specific terrain in the tooltip.

 

[Krafty]

Am I the only one who set auto control for production sliders, set them to focus on upgrades, and never touched them again?

If I wanted to free up more IC for something, id turn off upgrades for specific units.

The political sliders from HOI2 however were awesome. Hawk vs Dove, Centralized vs Decentralized. Those were cool ways to tailor your nation each year. I miss the Jan 1st events and gameplay decisions.