HOI4 - Development Diary - October 19th 2016

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

ComradeTeal

Private
88 Badges
Aug 16, 2013
16
5
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Impire
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
Given how crucial the Chinese theater is to a realistic representation of the pacific theater, I hope it is very high on that list. Like, next up. Its not hard to argue that China is more important to WW2 than the commonwealth.

I'd like to see you try make that argument considering the strength of the UK was its empire and exactly what made it a great power. I also find it ironic you saying Chinese theatre is crucial to a realistic representation of the pacfic theatre as though the invasion of australian PNG and the bases in NZ and Aus under threat of invasion and used as staging are somehow not as crucial to a 'realistic' representation of that theatre.

Why can't we just accept that they are all crucial and integral to the representation of history in this game, is that so hard? It's not a question of one or the other so just chill out and wait for the next DLC!
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Zarathustra_the

Lt. General
85 Badges
Nov 3, 2011
1.645
985
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
Somewhat interesting side conversation if you care about Anzac politics, but I don't understand what this has to do with the diary?
It started as an interlocutor about whether Australia should be a puppet or not. First and foremost the dominions provided almost free industrial support and resources to the UK. In a sense it makes little sense for the Canadian and Australian resources to require the UK to expend civilian factories for the natural resources much like it does currently. Secondly, Australia and New Zealand did not ratify the Westminster Statute untill 1942 and the late 1940s respectively. In essence they had no legal foreign policy until those points. Since the game starts in 36, they should still be puppets as they had similar legal rights as India at the time.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Dreylad

Recruit
66 Badges
Aug 8, 2009
2
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
It started as an interlocutor about whether Australia should be a puppet or not. First and foremost the dominions provided almost free industrial support and resources to the UK. In a sense it makes little sense for the Canadian and Australian resources to require the UK to expend civilian factories for the natural resources much like it does currently. Secondly, Australia and New Zealand did not ratify the Westminster Statute untill 1942 and the late 1940s respectively. In essence they had no legal foreign policy until those points. Since the game starts in 36, they should still be puppets as they had similar legal rights as India at the time.

That's very true. Canada actually had to have a vote in Parliament over whether or not it should declare war (with pacificsts voting against!) while I don't think Australia or New Zealand made such a decision.

Also it doesn't matter much for the focus tree, but the reasons for the tension over conscription was less to do with English-speaking officers (although I realize podcat says that was A factor not THE factor), and more to do with the Conscription Crisis in the First World War (although as some new research shows, that concern was entirely overblown and based on bad data!)
 

Zarathustra_the

Lt. General
85 Badges
Nov 3, 2011
1.645
985
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
I quoted early in my debate with @Axe99 the speech where australia declared war, it was quite literally, yesterday Great Britain declared war, as a consequence we are now at war with germany... All of two sentences on a radio address, no debate in Parliament, no act of the Governor General, nothing...
 
  • 1
Reactions:

loglolol

Recruit
38 Badges
Feb 16, 2014
3
2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV
I hate to say it. But I think that the Request Land Lease should be free. Most of the other diplomacy options, you can both request, and offer, exept lend lease. Anyone else?
Also, Why isn't there a HOI IV icon under my name :mad:
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

DominusNovus

Field Marshal
86 Badges
Oct 2, 2007
7.624
7.053
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
I'd like to see you try make that argument considering the strength of the UK was its empire and exactly what made it a great power. I also find it ironic you saying Chinese theatre is crucial to a realistic representation of the pacfic theatre as though the invasion of australian PNG and the bases in NZ and Aus under threat of invasion and used as staging are somehow not as crucial to a 'realistic' representation of that theatre.

Why can't we just accept that they are all crucial and integral to the representation of history in this game, is that so hard? It's not a question of one or the other so just chill out and wait for the next DLC!

The War in the Pacific startted in China, and it was the resources need to fight that war that prompted Japan's attacks on the West in the first place.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Lukevan16

Captain
62 Badges
Dec 8, 2012
406
403
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Is there going to be anyways that Commonwealth countries can use each other's Generals? New Zealander Generals served in North Africa, and Claude Auchinlek was put in charge of the Indian Army in I believe 1943. Obviously it would be a bit irritating if AI South Africa nicked Monty from you, but I do think there should be some way for Commonwealth countries to offer their commanders to other Commonwealth countries
 
  • 4
Reactions:

jodirola

Captain
39 Badges
Dec 5, 2012
405
56
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities in Motion
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
@podcat Don't forget the Ecuadorian-Peruvian map, it is wrong, that is not the border on 1936 or 1939, the border you are using is the later 1942 'Rio Protocol' demarcation


before '1941 war' and 'rio protocol' border
before1941.jpg


after '1941 war' and 'rio protocol'
after1942.jpg
 
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
I suggest you look again at the circumstances of why they would not ratify the westminster statute. The UAP were pursuing a collaborative imperial defense policy concentrated on fortress Singapore. I actually suspect you have the nature of the relationship of control back to front as well. The menzies document according to most sources appears to have been a political gesture to keep the alp suppressed in Parliament. The source i linked clearly references the shift to an American centred policy as originating with Curtin. Without the westminster ratification Australia had no foreign policy capacity in law. This was deliberate to maintain British defence. From 31 the uk wanted an independent Australia and NZ. NZ and UAP AUS did not want this. Ultimately it is the trade relationship of puppets I want for commonwealth powers more than anything. Furthermore carlton as i recall is hardly a peer reviewed source.

I agree with all of the above (including about Carlton - I'm afraid all of my reading that'd qualify as peer-reviewed or as-good-as is either work or naval-related at the moment, the last time I read that quality of material about Australian and international politics would have been around 20 years ago - but I may well read more once I've sated my navy fetish, if I'm still kicking ;) - although I think Carlton did a pretty good job - his attention to detail with naval matters impressed me, so if he was half as rigorous in his aside on the Elias and Gordon case, then it should still be of a similar-enough quality, even if it hasn't been through the formal peer review process (which, in my experience, was hardly a guarantee of quality in any event, although better than nothing)).

However, I'd argue that in 1936 Australia did have a foreign policy in fact, even if it didn't in law. Australia had a state representative in Washington that represented Australia's interests to the US Government. We made statements about our views on Japan's international behaviour (a bit later than 1936, but still pre-Statute). When war broke out, Australia offered the services of the RAN to Britain (rather than just had them assumed) and offered to send troops (and far from all of them). When war was declared, Australia declared war (without any dissent amongst on political side of things, and very little in society more broadly), and if we hadn't, I would consider it incredibly unlikely that Britain would (or could) have forced us to join in. This is the crux of my argument, that Australia (and New Zealand) were the masters of their own destiny. They chose to throw in with the UK, and continue to be part of the Imperial apparatus (which, imo, was a sensible thing for them to do), but it was their choice. Had they chosen otherwise, then it was on them, and it was unlikely Britain would have intervened.

Putting this in the context of a game where one can play as Australia and New Zealand, I would like to see players in charge of those countries having a choice about how they go about things, as I firmly believe those countries had a choice historically. I think one illustration of this is the counterfactual of what would have happened had the ALP not lost the 1931 election, and passed the Statue of Westminster - ie, it was up to Australia, not Britain, what Australia did with its foreign policy. From the time the Statute was passed in British Parliament (and, arguably, from before then to a smaller degree), Australia had de facto control over its foreign policy, even if it generally chose to exercise it in a way that was very much in line with Imperial (ie, British) interests.

I think you need to accept that their is no evidence of an asserted Australian policy in defiance to the imperial policy until Curtin in 42. And this I think would justify a puppet status to be removed by a focus.

This is turning things on its head a bit. I'm saying that to indicate a puppet relationship we need evidence that Britain coerced Australia into taking action against its will. If we make the bar for puppethood being no evidence of asserting policy in defiance of another allied nation then Australia (and Britain, and a bunch of other nations) become puppets during the Korean War, and the US will, at times, be a puppet of the UK during WW2. It also means that Australia doesn't become independent in 1942, it just transfers it's puppetedness (not a proper word :)) from the UK to the USA.

I'd argue that the evidence for being a puppet is coercion by the master, rather than defiance by the puppet, as interests need to diverge sufficiently before the kind of defiance you're looking for will be evident but independence can be achieved well before those interests diverge.

I'd also note that Curtin was just another Prime Minister - when he successfully defied Churchill in keeping the 6th and 7th divisions out of Burma, he had no different legal position than Menzies (or Fadden, or Lyons) did before him. The difference was that, by this point, interests had sufficiently diverged to require (in Curtin's eyes, and I personally back his judgement) the need to exercise the independence in foreign policy that had existed for many years before that point.

I quoted early in my debate with @Axe99 the speech where australia declared war, it was quite literally, yesterday Great Britain declared war, as a consequence we are now at war with germany... All of two sentences on a radio address, no debate in Parliament, no act of the Governor General, nothing...

Australia isn't generally one to debate wars in Parliament before starting them (see Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan), and it's worth noting that declarations of war come in all shapes and sizes (France was covered off in Britain's declaration of war - but that doesn't mean France was a puppet - and at least according to wikipedia (I know, rubbish source, but I'm buggered and doing it quick and dirty - deffo tear it to shreds if wiki's not up to the task) France didn't ratify the legislation that formalised them being at war until the day after Britain had declared war for them). That Australia didn't feel the need for a debate on the matter (which it didn't, there was widespread support for it across politics and society) doesn't indicate subservience, just a unity of purpose and a perceived unity of interest. Australia went "all the way with LBJ" in the 1960s, but (despite perhaps some of the comments by protesters at the time :)) we were never a puppet of the US.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Zarathustra_the

Lt. General
85 Badges
Nov 3, 2011
1.645
985
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
I agree with all of the above (including about Carlton - I'm afraid all of my reading that'd qualify as peer-reviewed or as-good-as is either work or naval-related at the moment, the last time I read that quality of material about Australian and international politics would have been around 20 years ago - but I may well read more once I've sated my navy fetish, if I'm still kicking ;) - although I think Carlton did a pretty good job - his attention to detail with naval matters impressed me, so if he was half as rigorous in his aside on the Elias and Gordon case, then it should still be of a similar-enough quality, even if it hasn't been through the formal peer review process (which, in my experience, was hardly a guarantee of quality in any event, although better than nothing)).

However, I'd argue that in 1936 Australia did have a foreign policy in fact, even if it didn't in law. Australia had a state representative in Washington that represented Australia's interests to the US Government. We made statements about our views on Japan's international behaviour (a bit later than 1936, but still pre-Statute). When war broke out, Australia offered the services of the RAN to Britain (rather than just had them assumed) and offered to send troops (and far from all of them). When war was declared, Australia declared war (without any dissent amongst on political side of things, and very little in society more broadly), and if we hadn't, I would consider it incredibly unlikely that Britain would (or could) have forced us to join in. This is the crux of my argument, that Australia (and New Zealand) were the masters of their own destiny. They chose to throw in with the UK, and continue to be part of the Imperial apparatus (which, imo, was a sensible thing for them to do), but it was their choice. Had they chosen otherwise, then it was on them, and it was unlikely Britain would have intervened.

Putting this in the context of a game where one can play as Australia and New Zealand, I would like to see players in charge of those countries having a choice about how they go about things, as I firmly believe those countries had a choice historically. I think one illustration of this is the counterfactual of what would have happened had the ALP not lost the 1931 election, and passed the Statue of Westminster - ie, it was up to Australia, not Britain, what Australia did with its foreign policy. From the time the Statute was passed in British Parliament (and, arguably, from before then to a smaller degree), Australia had de facto control over its foreign policy, even if it generally chose to exercise it in a way that was very much in line with Imperial (ie, British) interests.



This is turning things on its head a bit. I'm saying that to indicate a puppet relationship we need evidence that Britain coerced Australia into taking action against its will. If we make the bar for puppethood being no evidence of asserting policy in defiance of another allied nation then Australia (and Britain, and a bunch of other nations) become puppets during the Korean War, and the US will, at times, be a puppet of the UK during WW2. It also means that Australia doesn't become independent in 1942, it just transfers it's puppetedness (not a proper word :)) from the UK to the USA.

I'd argue that the evidence for being a puppet is coercion by the master, rather than defiance by the puppet, as interests need to diverge sufficiently before the kind of defiance you're looking for will be evident but independence can be achieved well before those interests diverge.

I'd also note that Curtin was just another Prime Minister - when he successfully defied Churchill in keeping the 6th and 7th divisions out of Burma, he had no different legal position than Menzies (or Fadden, or Lyons) did before him. The difference was that, by this point, interests had sufficiently diverged to require (in Curtin's eyes, and I personally back his judgement) the need to exercise the independence in foreign policy that had existed for many years before that point.



Australia isn't generally one to debate wars in Parliament before starting them (see Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan), and it's worth noting that declarations of war come in all shapes and sizes (France was covered off in Britain's declaration of war - but that doesn't mean France was a puppet - and at least according to wikipedia (I know, rubbish source, but I'm buggered and doing it quick and dirty - deffo tear it to shreds if wiki's not up to the task) France didn't ratify the legislation that formalised them being at war until the day after Britain had declared war for them). That Australia didn't feel the need for a debate on the matter (which it didn't, there was widespread support for it across politics and society) doesn't indicate subservience, just a unity of purpose and a perceived unity of interest. Australia went "all the way with LBJ" in the 1960s, but (despite perhaps some of the comments by protesters at the time :)) we were never a puppet of the US.


A couple of points on the declaration, as per the alliance treaty, the British had the power to declare war for France and vice versa, this existed in the treaty clause as a mechanism of the shared defense. It was also in the treaty of mutual defense before the first world war. Secondly, in Australia it is a reserve power to declare war, just as it is in the UK. This requires explicit evocation by the Prime Minister. Menzies statement actually reflects the legal circumstances, because of the UK we are now at war. This suggests a distinct lack of the power on the part of Australia in of itself. The key point in this instance is the constitutional arrangements for the declaration of war. Chamberlains declaration was via the the pre-established arrangements. By the refusal to respond to the final note, the cabinet decision that a war was consequentially in effect became normative. For France the treaty of mutual defense thus came into effect and made it so also. It is similar to how the treaty ensured an inability of individual surrender.

Looking through the documents, it seems that Australia under the UAP expressly wanted to have no foreign policy powers to ensure a British obligation to Australia's defense. I am at no point not suggesting that Australia should be stuck as a puppet, but with the start in 1936, with Australia historically subordinate by choice for the next six years, surely this is a good choice to reflect the relationship by the puppet status? Give Australia a focus to ratify the statute and break the puppet status, but otherwise keep it in place. It had been British practice since 1928 to consider the dominions co-equal within the commonwealth, however legal force of this required the ratification of the statute, a status which Australia deliberately refused, out of concern for it's inability to defend itself. Australia and New Zealand prior to the experience of the Fall of Singapore, did not want to be responsible for their own defense as this was something both beyond their manpower and economic capabilities. In this sense, they chose to be effective puppets to force Britain to be obligated to provide the Military defense. If that meant they were obligated to fight in British wars so be it.

The key point on Curtin is to look to ALP policy which was unique. The ALP had more or less been kept from government as much as possible by any number of combinations of political parties on a pro-imperial policy base. This is a key aspect for anyone with an understanding of the history of the ALP. Essentially, the ALP always professed a policy platform of an independent Australia unwedded to Great Britain. This undoubtedly had some connection to the strong Catholic and Irish sympathies of the Australian Labor Party, and the social issues that fed into both. Lyons, Menzies, Hughes and Fadden all were strong pro-empire political forces, and Lyons especially wanted to ensure a British defense of Australia in the face of Japan. Remember also that the government of Fadden fell from two independents who had supported Menzies from 1940 supporting Curtin, likewise, Curtin relied upon them. Until the Imperial defense policy was proven a failure with the fall of Singapore these conservatively minded independents would not support the acceptance of the statute even if it was ALP policy.

I guess all this combined is perhaps why Australia as currently in game is so badly represented politically. Curtin was no where near political power in 1936 or even 1939. The UAP and the Country Party had absolute majorities at both times. It is my hope that we will see a revisiting of the political setup of Australia as part of this DLC to reflect a reality. It is bad enough there being no Stanly Baldwin in charge of the UK, but to have a man who only became Prime Minister because of the facts of the war as Prime Minister well before the war became seems almost intolerable to my Historians sensibilities.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:

Chema1994

Captain
31 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
313
83
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines
Will be the AI also requesting lend lease? At the moment it's hard to know which equipment is needed by your allies, that's also a very important thing for the US since you need to have your equipment used by your allies so you can get some precious xp.
Also what about giving destroyers (or maybe even light cruisers) to your allies?
 

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
I am at no point not suggesting that Australia should be stuck as a puppet, but with the start in 1936, with Australia historically subordinate by choice for the next six years, surely this is a good choice to reflect the relationship by the puppet status? Give Australia a focus to ratify the statute and break the puppet status, but otherwise keep it in place. It had been British practice since 1928 to consider the dominions co-equal within the commonwealth, however legal force of this required the ratification of the statute, a status which Australia deliberately refused, out of concern for it's inability to defend itself. Australia and New Zealand prior to the experience of the Fall of Singapore, did not want to be responsible for their own defense as this was something both beyond their manpower and economic capabilities. In this sense, they chose to be effective puppets to force Britain to be obligated to provide the Military defense. If that meant they were obligated to fight in British wars so be it.

I'd be happy with this - the key is that the Australia and New Zealand are driving the choice - so if they are puppets by choice, and they as actors are the ones that terminate the arrangement that'd work. My concern was making them puppets in a HoI4 sense where they lack the control to change their situation (which is how puppets are defined in a HoI4 sense). It still isn't perfect, but it's close enough that at the HoI4 level it doesn't make a difference, and I agree that it'd be closer than having them independent at game start (and it also adds a national focus that reflects an interesting historical situation, and gives players a choice - although I'm not quite sure how I'd set up the costs/benefits of it off the top of my head, beyond the obvious "no more locked into UK declaration of war"). I'd make sure the NF was a quick one though - say no longer to do than the time it took to sail from Suez to Ceylon say - so that the player can quickly decide it wants its troops back home :). I'd still have Canada, South Africa and the Irish Free State as independent nations at game start though.

As for Curtin being PM on game start, you'll get no disagreement with me there :). I'm not as worried about that just because Australia's hardly the only nation suffering, and my modding focus is on naval matters, but I agree that I hope we get that sorted at some stage. I suspect it may not be with this DLC though, and we might find it gets looked after with a political-themed DLC at some point (as there's a lot of potential for deeper political play).

Speaking of which, I'd expect it would be possible to mod both things without too much trouble. Cheers for the discussion and thoughts, both interesting and enlightening :).
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Hells2014

Private
32 Badges
Jul 1, 2014
12
74
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • The Showdown Effect
What is it with some Paradox Forum users and thinking that China is a major power.... Not quite historical
So you do know that China lost 14 to even possibly 20 million people in the war against Japan, right? They also fought since 1937, and never surrendered like France did (Not a really significant factor, but is relevant).

The main factor is that they were given veto power and a permanent seat on the UNSC, along with Britain, Russia, France, America and, of course, China. These seats were based on the war and the efforts of each country. In a global aspect, it's pretty significant and just because they got annihilated by Japanese troops, doesn't mean that they are not a Major power; they had a part in the war to such a significant enough degree, to be considered for the UNSC. If that is not enough, I don't really know what is, honestly.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Gamer_1745

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Sep 2, 2012
8.048
4.411
www.youtube.com
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
China was not a Great Power 1936-45. How many battleships did they produce? What was their monthly Fighter, Bomber & Transport plane production? What was their monthly Tank production?

Things like this should show if China was a 'Major' or what was called a 'Great Power'.
 
  • 5
  • 5
Reactions:

Augustin B.

Corporal
49 Badges
Aug 18, 2016
37
41
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
So you do know that China lost 14 to even possibly 20 million people in the war against Japan, right? They also fought since 1937, and never surrendered like France did (Not a really significant factor, but is relevant).

The main factor is that they were given veto power and a permanent seat on the UNSC, along with Britain, Russia, France, America and, of course, China. These seats were based on the war and the efforts of each country. In a global aspect, it's pretty significant and just because they got annihilated by Japanese troops, doesn't mean that they are not a Major power; they had a part in the war to such a significant enough degree, to be considered for the UNSC. If that is not enough, I don't really know what is, honestly.

Having huge losses does not make you a great power. China was divided, weak and did not have significant industry. Its military was weak and ineffective.
You have to remember that Japan managed to fight a two front war vs China while fighting the USA.
China is not a major power, they have a large population, but that alone does not make you a major, and China certainly does not deserve to be on the starting screen.
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

magistrat70

Sergeant
21 Badges
Sep 2, 2016
66
6
instagram.com
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
One of the things we are focusing on in this expansion is to flesh out the commonwealth nations with focus trees, art, flavor and special mechanics. First up is Canada because it was the first of the commonwealth nations to send troops to Britain.

I am very happy that soon will be addition to the game. Later, however, I would love to see the focus for two Spains and two Chinas, as well as an analogue of the League of Nations.
 
  • 1
Reactions: