HOI4 - Development Diary - 12th of August 2016 **read OP edit**

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grandad1982

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@podcat I have a question. Are you guys thinking about adding a simple terrain map mode or a dedicated infrastructure map mode? I for one would find that super helpful.

Also any chance you can look at how airwings work? The having to make and manage loads of small wings to be efficient thing seems against the idea of reducing pointless (unfun) micro. In a similar vein can we please be able to assign airwings to multiple zones if in range like we can with naval missions? Please? I'll buy you a set of commemorative stamps of some kind.......
 
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I would like to add my two cents in.

I think the hostility displayed by segments of the community boil down to two things:
1. A sense of entitlement and lack of perspective on the part of the community.
2. A communication failure on the part of Paradox.

I wager that most people will agree that the game's current state is a disappointment. Us players hoped for a better game, and I'm sure the developers would have liked for the feedback to be more positive. But troublesome launches are nothing new, nor are they even rare. But they don't always lead to such vitriol.

Paradox -- you guys should do a better job in communicating with the consumer. I don't mean developers should spend time on the forums responding to every thread, but don't you have community managers? People whose sole job is too communicate? I get that the team was on vacation, but I was under the impression that like many other studios, you either had paid employees or volunteers who moderate the forums and serve as something of a liaison between the developers and the community. Do you not have someone outside of Sweden that fulfills this role? We sometimes go quite a while without hearing from anyone, and often the one we hear from is podcat. Don't get me wrong, podcat is great but he shouldn't be the one responding to threads.

Gamers -- We need to be more mature. Throwing e-tantrums and using hyperbole will not solve anything or lead to anything productive.
 
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Telenil

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I'm a games-programmer myself and I know that when I've finished a game, I don't ever want to even look at it again. Looking at the code, for the millionth time, is painful. Testing, re-testing and tweaking is boring and not the reason you got into gaming or game-programming. You just want to ditch it and start on something new, fresh and exciting. Games programmer's heads are filled with ideas for other games, but you just haven't got the time or energy to work on them all. AI programming is boring and difficult - people keep making the mistake of thinking of AI as some sort of generic program. It's not, it's different and needs to tweaked and tested for every game, every patch, every update.

As much as I'd like to get Hoi4 back off the shelf and start playing it again, I personally think the modern approach of releasing games to the public early is a good thing, in the long run. It's frustrating for us, but I think we should try to be patient and accept that it eventually leads to a better game. The public will play the game, explore every nook and cranny and report the faults to the developers, who can then fix it without having to play through the game themselves. Believe me, you don't want to play your own game after 4 years or so of development.

Hoi4 is a great game, it just needs a competent Ai and I'll be playing it non-stop. Hoi3 was terrible until the final version as are most games today. We should support Paradox and if you're currently bored of Hoi4, play something else for a month, then try again.
Agreed. I'm not a programer but I have run a mod on an other game for several years and I have a similar experience. A point comes when you can't see the mistakes even when they are staring you in the face, and I fixed bugs more efficiently by looking at YouTube playthroughs than by my own testing. You relax and take notes, which works better than re-starting a game yourself for the 101th time.

I wouldn't be saying this if I played a standard game, but the huge scope and complexity of HoI4 mean glitches are inevitable. Not sure where exactly you should draw the line (modding community are much less demanding since everything is free), but the studio clearly invested a lot of time and effort in the game.
 
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Thats not happening. Diaries will cover things we have done, or are in the process of doing. Not promises of the future. if our naval combat changes are done on friday I'll talk about them, otherwise that will be talked about later.

This seems to be a very good choice to me, I imagine this anger now would pale in comparison if things talked about were never actually done.

On a side note, though not perfect, I have enjoyed HOI 4 very much so far, and would especially like to say how much better multiplayer seems to get with every paradox release.
 
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RVallant

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Gamers -- We need to be more mature. Throwing e-tantrums and using hyperbole will not solve anything or lead to anything productive.

Calling gamers entitled isn't going to aid in that process... I really dislike the whole 'oh you're entitled' argument anyway, as people aren't generally asking for 'special treatment', they're asking for a better product, that they're dispensing money on, which gives them that right to be 'entitled' if you want to use that word.

IMO Entitlement is asking for a special edition game, exclusively for myself and no one else. ;)

Really, if there's any hostility (and I've been away so I haven't really paid much heed to it), it'll probably be down to the fact Paradox goes off on a nice summer holiday, leaving people with a product that perhaps was/is in need of a bit of polish before the holiday was taken. That's how I see it anyway, it's all timing to be honest.
 
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bowman2011

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Gamers -- We need to be more mature. Throwing e-tantrums and using hyperbole will not solve anything or lead to anything productive.

"Anybody can become angry — that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way — that is not within everybody's power and is not easy." ~ Aristotle


------
 
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Strategikon

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Well I think that some very valid points about the problems of the game have been roused. Some cirtisism has not been very polite or constructive. Thats propably because long time fans of this Company have great expectations. Some of those has been left unfulfilled which leads to frustration. Also PI should have been more active on communicating.

It´s good to hear, that consumer feedback has been heard.

In my opinion the attacks on the holidays were a bit uncivil. Workers have right to rest. I write this as an citizen of an other welfare state where we also have reasonable holidays. I would have liked to spend my five weeks with a better game, but well such is life.
 
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I also want to thank the PI for making this kind of games that even an history buff can enjoy. Although I would like a bit more historical accuracy and a bit less sandbox, but on the whole the balance is propably quite ok after the AI is upgraded.
 
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Ninaran

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Not sure if that's a bug or not but last time I played Monastic Commune of Tibet and joined the Comintern, when the Soviet's attacked Finland and the Allies, they kind of.. left me with the Raj. I was fighting troops from the Raj, UK, France, South Africa, Switzerland.. all by myself. Finland was annexed within a week or two, so that wasn't the issue but then the Soviet's just parked 240 divisions on the German border, completely ignoring the south.

In EU4 I can at least set provinces as a focus for my allies to somewhat guide them if they get stuck, but as far as I know there is no such mechanic in HoI4.

What can I do if my ally simply refuses to move, even if I push the Raj 65% towards capitulation and kill six times more troops than I lose...
 

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Its also about expectations. I think the AI is close to (but not better) than HOI3 with all expansions and patches in level. Since games are completely changed you start from scratch with ai every time you cant really build on previous work. In fact I'm pretty sure the hoi4 ai is likely the best ai we have done on release for any of our titles. Stuff that people call "broken ai" like Germany not stomping everything is mostly due to changes in the game allowing minors to be more fun and playable, and also, and this is important, actually having AI's that are trying to play the game, not just sit there and wait to get rolled over.
I think it is bad decision to make game more interesting to play with minors and for this purpose doing them so strong.
But for me biggest problem is huge abstraction level in the game.. research not tied to anything, in hoi3 there were some logic with theoretical and practical practice, now we get research that is based on nothing. And furthermore we have research slots that are based on nothing at all and some minor can have 5 slots as Germany for nothing.. really strange decision for me. Especially when you have such great mechanic with ship dockyards, why didn't you used this in research I don't understand. It could be epic win if you would implemented this, for example we could have some research facility buildings on the map like dockyards and for research we would need to choose what to research and assign to this project not more than 15 research facilities .. we could build more and we could bomb them in enemy countries.. this would be epic. But you (developers) chosen other option with abstraction .. this is not understandable for me especially when you have such mechanics in the game.
National focuses... I don't really like them for free stuff they are giving ... for me they are breaking immersion.
And for minors there could be other mechanics so that they would not be too outdated with their technologies. For example make technologies less expensive if for example 3 countries have researched technology make it 25% less expensive and if 5 countries have this technology make it 50% less and when 10 countries make it 75% less expensive. So that majors would always be at their top research abilities, but this would simulate situation when discoveries that known to many countries become easier for research... like in reality (for me at least it is realistic way).

Hope my post will not offend anyone from dev team, just my thoughts and I really hope that future expansions will minimize abstraction level in this game. I was so hyped when i for the first time seen new production system in the game in dev diaries, but then I was afraid from too big abstraction levels in this game when I was reading next dev diaries and now after game is out I see I was right. And I see this as biggest problem with hoi4. But thank you for your work.
 
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One of the advantages of dubious AI is that well-thought out plans rarely fall short due to poor execution. It was pretty relaxing. The only tense moment was when I invaded the US (having taken advantage of the dodgy Royal Navy) before going after the USSR. It was a bit difficult to get the troops back before the Soviets were in Berlin.

Which reminds of another thing about the AI's front issue. It's pretty easy for a player to figure out whether or not to leave a front empty, even if it's ridiculously ahistorical. What should the AI do? This only really applies to quiet borders (and islands) though. I think right now it mostly bases the decision on non-aggression pacts?
 

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it does to some extent depend on what is in the nation specific settings. In BICE the nation specific settings were primarily economic ( as opposed to combat bonus/ negative) so those nations would be stronger or weaker in terms of overall game production and research.
 
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Art1985

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it does to some extent depend on what is in the nation specific settings. In BICE the nation specific settings were primarily economic ( as opposed to combat bonus/ negative) so those nations would be stronger or weaker in terms of overall game production and research.
It would be great if at least it BLACK ICE we could have multiple options for every country to adjust .. economy, building efficiency and so on...
I think it is great addition to the game, if someone don't like this they can not use it.
 

Exterous

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The problem is that some people there are confusing flawed AI with broken game. They can't understand that coding a decent AI for such a game requires time and a lot of work.

It goes beyond that for some of us. Obviously coding AI takes a lot of time and work. And HOI IV took a lot of time to develop and release - far far longer than originally planned. The hope was that the delay would give us a game that had far fewer issues than it currently does. For me - only Germany Italy and Japan are fun to play. The last two only because you have to try and keep Germany from killing you with their suicidal DOWing. There are also issues that you would really think should have been caught by Q&A and beta testers. In 138 hours of play I haven't had a single game where the AI's weren't sending huge armies to fight it out in the Sahara. The AI constantly under produces the equipment it needs to equip its divisions which is pretty easy to see by switching country tags. Suicide invasions. Lack of defending the coast lines. Improper front garrisoning (Germany having 3/4 of its units sitting on a peaceful Soviet boarder while the UK takes Rome.) All of those seem exceedingly common by looking at the threads here on the forum yet they are somehow still in the game? For me that either speaks to the quality of Q&A dept or the resources (time, money, etc) they were given. Neither option is appealing to me

Your player base largely like to play single player and you are failing at delivering that experience. This game has caused me more than once to just quit in a bewildered fury because of the AI and design decisions. I have literally had to tag switch to play the AI and at least give it some guidance, which should never happen, not have I ever had to do it before. Between the AI and your bewildering design choices I find myself in a position of what happened behind the scenes on this game. I also don't think I'm the only one based on the sheer toxic response all over these forums. This game and how it is being handled has fundamentally damaged your credibility with your main player base, which genuinely appreciate your games and their developers, but in this case is being handled so poorly that you risk permanent damage with that player base. Sure you sold a lot of new copies to new players, but that is not as sustainable as having devoted customers.

I've bought quite a few Paradox games on or before release going all the way back to EU1 and HOI1 but after Stellaris and now HOI IV I'm done doing that. Its just not worth it for me to play during what apparently is a half a year of game fixing.

What concerns me the most is the lack of attention and immediate concern spent on this game right now compared to Stellaris but I made the mistake in thinking Hearts of Iron IV would be the flagship title. Just goes to show that sales numbers dictate where resources and dedication should go. I just feel bad for those few left to work on Hearts of Iron IV now. Just seems pointless to me when all that caution in not making the same mistakes with Hearts of Iron III's release and then it ultimately ends up in development hell anyway.
(snip)
By the time the next patch is released it'll be 3 months since release (including that 1 month Summer break). I'm just left feeling bitter with the situation and the little progress that's been made so far. In future, please do not launch major games like this right before Paradox's summer holiday. It's not fun for you, the hardworking devs, and it's not fun for us, the paying customer.

A lot of this. Its clear the developers are passionate about their work and it does seem like they have put a lot of effort into this title. But something somewhere is missing in the development cycle. Paradox isn't forthcoming with where they think that might be or even if they know it exists. From a company standpoint I can somewhat understand that but from a consumer standpoint I don't like it. I don't necessarily blame the employees for what could be a company issue but the last several months have made it very unlikely I will buy another Paradox title before it becomes heavily discounted through a sale
 
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ggsimmonds

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Calling gamers entitled isn't going to aid in that process... I really dislike the whole 'oh you're entitled' argument anyway, as people aren't generally asking for 'special treatment', they're asking for a better product, that they're dispensing money on, which gives them that right to be 'entitled' if you want to use that word.

IMO Entitlement is asking for a special edition game, exclusively for myself and no one else. ;)

Really, if there's any hostility (and I've been away so I haven't really paid much heed to it), it'll probably be down to the fact Paradox goes off on a nice summer holiday, leaving people with a product that perhaps was/is in need of a bit of polish before the holiday was taken. That's how I see it anyway, it's all timing to be honest.

I like how these days wanting a game that works properly gets you labelled "Entitled."
It is not merely wanting a working game that makes one become entitled.

Its the attitude of "oh you are working on this for the patch? That doesn't please me, you need to do this instead..." and "you should not get a vacation until I am pleased with the state of the game" mindset.

Keep in mind that I am not saying that all those that are disappointed feel like they are entitled. I am talking about those that don't make constructive criticism or productive statements
 
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aruon

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I like how these days wanting a game that works properly gets you labelled "Entitled."

just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it doesn't work properly. HOI 3 had a crappy AI, but it worked properly as far as it was designed (provided you were nowhere near water). and HOI 4 is lightyears ahead of its predecessor.
crafting an AI is possibly the single most frustrating and hellish part of development because any one flaw can kill a game as large and complex as this. if anyone could get a perfect AI in a HOI game by the 20th try, i'd give them my life savings.

and yes, you did just sound incredibly entitled.
 
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Dalwin

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I'm a games-programmer myself and I know that when I've finished a game, I don't ever want to even look at it again. Looking at the code, for the millionth time, is painful. Testing, re-testing and tweaking is boring and not the reason you got into gaming or game-programming. You just want to ditch it and start on something new, fresh and exciting. Games programmer's heads are filled with ideas for other games, but you just haven't got the time or energy to work on them all. AI programming is boring and difficult - people keep making the mistake of thinking of AI as some sort of generic program. It's not, it's different and needs to tweaked and tested for every game, every patch, every update.

As much as I'd like to get Hoi4 back off the shelf and start playing it again, I personally think the modern approach of releasing games to the public early is a good thing, in the long run. It's frustrating for us, but I think we should try to be patient and accept that it eventually leads to a better game. The public will play the game, explore every nook and cranny and report the faults to the developers, who can then fix it without having to play through the game themselves. Believe me, you don't want to play your own game after 4 years or so of development.

Hoi4 is a great game, it just needs a competent Ai and I'll be playing it non-stop. Hoi3 was terrible until the final version as are most games today. We should support Paradox and if you're currently bored of Hoi4, play something else for a month, then try again.
I am sure that I am not alone in taking the approach that when I buy such a game as this on launch day I know there will be a period of painful growth. This can indeed be frustrating but it also has its rewards. With Paradox I feel that, at least once in a while, my voice is heard. My ideas get listened to and on occasion even adopted.

This process of helping to form the game with input from the forum consensus is why I buy PDX games early and why I stay active in the forums.
 
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seldon

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I understand that people have been away and that everyone is entitled to their vacation, but you also have to understand that many people have been dealing with some of these issues for over six weeks. No one should have expected any meaningful information to come out the first week you were back, but I think it was a reasonable expectation to expect something substantial this past week. When that didn't happen, people started to vent their frustrations. It is a matter of opinion on whether you think the content in this past week's DD was substantial or not, but I personally do not believe it was.

If anything good comes from this thread, I hope Paradox at least considers dedicating a community manager to the game, at least on a temporary basis. It would take a lot of the burden off all the developers and let them focus on their work. They should absolutely still engage and participate in the forums, but they should not be obligated to or take the full wrath of the community when there is a hot issue. That is what the community manager is there for - to be the punching bag.

Anyway, just my opinion and general attempt to help out.

I do think it's great that developers read the forum, But, I second the suggestion of dedicating a community manager to the forums . They are a lot cheaper than developers and a good one can help synthesise the feedback.

My mentor taught the most important equation in life.

Satisfaction = Reality - Expectations. If expectations are too high you'll never be satisfied.

I had fairly high expectations for both Stellaris and HOI IV. Stellaris is nowhere close to what I expected the AI to be bad but is even worse than I imagined, and while the early game is fun the middle game is simply boring.

In contrast, HOI IV has actually exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect much from the AI, so I'm not too disappointed that while the tactical AI is competent that global AI is pretty bad.

At this point, HOI IV is what it is. I'm very much enjoying the game as sort of sandbox game. I'm not expecting the AI to provide much of a challenge. Players need to come to grips with what the game is and is likely to remain through this most of this year.

I'm delighted that you are providing the ability to buff individual country, especially because I specifically asked for it. I believe this feature combined with other things like not have the AI send 100 divisions to Africa or Denmark, better divisions builds will make it possible to setup fairly challenging single player games.

Of course, it will still be possible to exploit the broken systems of the game. But if you are playing the Japanese and realize that CL are the uber ship, then in makes no sense to both buffs the US and the UK, while only building CLs.

I do think it is important for Paradox and the community manager to set expectation properly. Players who are expecting HOI3 OOBs, features from HOI2, or Oil rules are simply going to be disappointed. On the other players who think that doing something about Oil or supplies in order to stop countries from deploying hundreds of understrength divisions have a legitimate complaint. The solution to the problem of small countries having way too many divisions may or may not involve oil, maintenance etc.

I'd suggest in the next couple of weeks, one the developer diaries summarize the feedback that you guys have gotten, and try and set expectations on what things should be improved in the short-term, what's likely to be addressed in the long-term and possibility with a DLC, and what isn't going to be changed. So people can start developing mods if that's what they want.
 
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