HoI4 DevDiary - Tank Designer

[Joshua Happytree]

Just a bit nitpicking Welded armor has always been better than cast armor. With welded armor you can use rolled steel that gives higher viscosity and more uniform steel. The downside is the need for highly qualified welders and material science to produce welding technology fit to this very steel composition and capable of withstanding extreme shock stresses. During WWII the Soviet Union initially had troubles with the former and in 50-60s with the latter (descent welding techs were developed closer to the end of the war yet they didn't not matched post-war requirements initially).

 

[Huandor]

No need for designers, just develop the AI to levels where the AI is attacking with strong divisions, invading using marines, defending their ports, using correct Garrison Templates, stop reassigning Leaders
When that is done, redevelop the whole Air combat
Designing tanks, planes and ships is Lego, this should be a strategy game
The AI won't make any use of designs, they just will waist their designed tanks on garrion somewhere. As currently seen, the ship designer is useless, the AI does not even build ships besides the oldest Tier 1 DD

 

[starkwolf]

No need for designers, just develop the AI to levels where the AI is attacking with strong divisions, invading using marines, defending their ports, using correct Garrison Templates, stop reassigning Leaders
When that is done, redevelop the whole Air combat
Designing tanks, planes and ships is Lego, this should be a strategy game
The AI won't make any use of designs, they just will waist their designed tanks on garrion somewhere. As currently seen, the ship designer is useless, the AI does not even build ships besides the oldest Tier 1 DD

That's all well and good, but so is this. Despite limited resources, I don't doubt the competition between AI upgrades specifically and features such as this are minimal. In either case, I expect that the changes to the tech tree will make it overall a more enjoyable experience, which is the point of both.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

An perfect example to make the Game more interessting (and I play the Game since Version 1.00 came out) is the Ultra-Mod with his Historical Industry-Thing and the Ressources Coal, Bauxit and Iron. You need Factorys to get Steel, Aluminium and Synth. Fuel / Rubber.

The Bonuses, R & D, Leaders in Gouvernment / Military etc. get fully overworked too. And the most important thing is, that all Tanks / Tank-Variants / Prototyps / Ships etc. are only historically resarchable.

I suggest, you look at him and much more test it to see what a Potential Hoi 4 still have. With the Refit which comes with 1.11 "Barbarossa" much of that Potential get used and more will come with other big Refit for the Airforce.

 

[dcalpanda]

Concerning 3D tank models, are we getting some of those as well?

 

[sobrano0]

The terrain modifiers depends only by chassi? The modules doesent not impact on terrain modifiers? I mean a medium tank chassi have always almost the same modifiers than modern tank chassi? No matter what cannon or turret we will inatall on?

 

[Leinad965]

The terrain modifiers depends only by chassi? The modules doesent not impact on terrain modifiers? I mean a medium tank chassi have always almost the same modifiers than modern tank chassi? No matter what cannon or turret we will inatall on?

No, it depends on tank category, which depends on chassi and turret. Medium tank destroyer can have different modifiers than medium self propelled artillery. I am not sure, if really have different modifiers in vanilla or if it is only teoretical possibility for mods

 

[sobrano0]

Normally we should have something like: light tank, light TD, light SPG and light AA. And similar for medium, heavy, super heavy and modern. I want to consider only the light,medium, heavy, and modern tank. In nsb it seems the chassi define if a tank is a light a medium an hard or a modern. Is it correct? My question is: are the others base modifiers still active in nsb? In 1.10.8 modern tank have reduced terrain malus as for medium tanks but with a power of fire and an armor similar to heavy. On the contrary heavy tanks has big terrain malus...

 

[MaxPower001]

Hello,

I need help please.

I am not able in 1937 to add guns to tank chassies or modules. They just dont appear.

I looked through all research tree to find a gun research or something similar. I am confused on how this works.

Could someone please help me out?

Thank you!

 

[MR2]

Hello,

I need help please.

I am not able in 1937 to add guns to tank chassies or modules. They just dont appear.

I looked through all research tree to find a gun research or something similar. I am confused on how this works.

Could someone please help me out?

Thank you!

First thought is a mod conflict. Any mods? Please list. Second, "validate" your files.

 

[MaxPower001]

First thought is a mod conflict. Any mods? Please list. Second, "validate" your files.

Thank you already. I do have mods - following the list:

- MPU Theatre icons
- MPU Theatre Icons (L) Nato
- WWs Veteran Icons
- HOI4 historical flag mode
- More division icons
- Make Peace not War
- AddFewGenerals
- More Model Images
- Enhanced Peace Conference AI


Thank you!

 

[MR2]

Thank you already. I do have mods - following the list:

- MPU Theatre icons
- MPU Theatre Icons (L) Nato
- WWs Veteran Icons
- HOI4 historical flag mode
- More division icons
- Make Peace not War
- AddFewGenerals
- More Model Images
- Enhanced Peace Conference AI


Thank you!

So, now comes the fun part... Load HOI and only one of those mods, check the tank designer for the missing items. Rinse repeat. Until you find the culprit.

I'd start w MDI first, followed by MMI.

Once you find the culprit... contact the Mod creator and inform them of your findings!

Edit: BTW, there is a whole forum dedicated to mods here:

 

[MaxPower001]

Thanks and it was the MPU mod which is really unfortunate due to this being a really nice mod. The vanilla game does not offer a bright variety of division icons unfortunately which should be a focus in developing this game until HOI5.

 

[Xaantiam]

With the new tank designer, is it not possible to convert stockpiled light tanks into TD and/or SP? When I start as Germany, I have some obsolete pz1. I design a Bison, but do not get the option to convert stockpile to this even though the pz1 is marked as obsolete. Bug or the way it is supposed to be??

 

[Altobelli]

With the new tank designer, is it not possible to convert stockpiled light tanks into TD and/or SP? When I start as Germany, I have some obsolete pz1. I design a Bison, but do not get the option to convert stockpile to this even though the pz1 is marked as obsolete. Bug or the way it is supposed to be??

You can convert tanks in the latest beta. I was converting light tanks into light spg wespe

 

[goodcigar]

I'm finding it basically impossible to design historical Tanks in the Tank Designer because of the way Speed is being unclearly represented. The Dev Diary says: " the speed of most historical designs is going to be lower than the stated max speed of the vehicle they are based on. This is because we represent the operational speed of a vehicle, i.e. how far the vehicle can get in 24 hours - tanks don’t drive around all day at maximum speed, they have to stop for refuelling, resting the crew, basic maintenance etc."

Despite this the Tank Designer clearly lists speed as "Max Speed".

I also am unable to find any real life reference to "Operational Speed". I can only find "Operational Range" which is a distance, On-Road or Off-Road. "Operational Speed" seems to be an invention of the Devs with no real life reference. I don't understand why they decided on this "Operational Speed" thing when it would have been much easier to understand by using Road Speed, Off-Road Speed or an Average Speed of them both.

How are we supposed to design historical Tanks without a clear and understandable Speed stat?

Engine types are also meant to be simple to understand. Gasoline Engines are faster than Diesels for the same weight, but Diesels are more reliable. Beyond that, Electric hybrid engines are a very situational pick. We originally intended for them to be a joke pick - costly, unreliable, fuel inefficient - but on some further reading, the rationale behind them was that they offered better mobility in broken terrain. In game, this is represented by a small bonus to breakthrough and defense. Finally, there are gas turbines, which are unlocked from jet engine research. They are the fastest engine option, but take up a lot of fuel. Like armor, engines also have an upgrade system where you can set the level of engine power (up to 20). It should be noted that the speed of most historical designs is going to be lower than the stated max speed of the vehicle they are based on. This is because we represent the operational speed of a vehicle, i.e. how far the vehicle can get in 24 hours - tanks don’t drive around all day at maximum speed, they have to stop for refuelling, resting the crew, basic maintenance etc.

@Archangel85 @Axe99 @GC955 @Ringwraith_JP @ETAIPOS

 

[levjam]

I'm finding it basically impossible to design historical Tanks in the Tank Designer because of the way Speed is being unclearly represented. The Dev Diary says: " the speed of most historical designs is going to be lower than the stated max speed of the vehicle they are based on. This is because we represent the operational speed of a vehicle, i.e. how far the vehicle can get in 24 hours - tanks don’t drive around all day at maximum speed, they have to stop for refuelling, resting the crew, basic maintenance etc."

Despite this the Tank Designer clearly lists speed as "Max Speed".

I also am unable to find any real life reference to "Operational Speed". I can only find "Operational Range" which is a distance, On-Road or Off-Road. "Operational Speed" seems to be an invention of the Devs with no real life reference. I don't understand why they decided on this "Operational Speed" thing when it would have been much easier to understand by using Road Speed, Off-Road Speed or an Average Speed of them both.

How are we supposed to design historical Tanks without a clear and understandable Speed stat?

Engine types are also meant to be simple to understand. Gasoline Engines are faster than Diesels for the same weight, but Diesels are more reliable. Beyond that, Electric hybrid engines are a very situational pick. We originally intended for them to be a joke pick - costly, unreliable, fuel inefficient - but on some further reading, the rationale behind them was that they offered better mobility in broken terrain. In game, this is represented by a small bonus to breakthrough and defense. Finally, there are gas turbines, which are unlocked from jet engine research. They are the fastest engine option, but take up a lot of fuel. Like armor, engines also have an upgrade system where you can set the level of engine power (up to 20). It should be noted that the speed of most historical designs is going to be lower than the stated max speed of the vehicle they are based on. This is because we represent the operational speed of a vehicle, i.e. how far the vehicle can get in 24 hours - tanks don’t drive around all day at maximum speed, they have to stop for refuelling, resting the crew, basic maintenance etc.

@Archangel85

The speed you see in both the tank designer and the division designer represents the speed they move at on the map. The maximum road speed would be pretty irrelevant to how fast the division could actually move. It’s an abstraction, yes, but it makes sense in a strategy game.

 

[Balesir]

I'm finding it basically impossible to design historical Tanks in the Tank Designer because of the way Speed is being unclearly represented. The Dev Diary says: " the speed of most historical designs is going to be lower than the stated max speed of the vehicle they are based on. This is because we represent the operational speed of a vehicle, i.e. how far the vehicle can get in 24 hours - tanks don’t drive around all day at maximum speed, they have to stop for refuelling, resting the crew, basic maintenance etc."

I find that a reasonably good representation can be achieved by multiplying the speed listed in the vehicle stats by 3 and treating this as the vehicle maximum road speed in miles per hour. If you prefer, multiplying by 5 would get an approximate kph figure.

 

[goodcigar]

The speed you see in both the tank designer and the division designer represents the speed they move at on the map. The maximum road speed would be pretty irrelevant to how fast the division could actually move. It’s an abstraction, yes, but it makes sense in a strategy game.

I am aware of what Speed does in the game. That is not the problem or question.

I find that a reasonably good representation can be achieved by multiplying the speed listed in the vehicle stats by 3 and treating this as the vehicle maximum road speed in miles per hour. If you prefer, multiplying by 5 would get an approximate kph figure.

If it was just the max road speed multiplied by three they would have said that don't you think? Unless they just completely pulled numbers randomly out of their butts - they must have done some kind of mathematical calculation to arrive at the vague abstracted numbers they currently have in the Tank Designer listed as "Max Speed". We need to know what calculation they used so we can correctly design historical Tanks. Otherwise we're just picking random numbers that have no bearing to reality.

They talked about "Operation Speed" in the Dev Diary but there is no such thing that exists as far as I can see. They may have made a misquote and meant "Operational Range" which is a common statistic of real life Tanks. You can easily see it on Wikipedia pages for Tanks. Operational Range was split between On-Road and Off-Road numbers. You could also logically average them out as a mix between On-Road and Off-Road, that would be "Cross-Country" I assume.

I have a suspicion this real life "Operational Range" number divided by 24 hours = speed is what they are using as the "Max Speed" number in the Tank Designer. It's the only thing that makes sense.
Example:
Panzer IV
Operational range: 200-320 km
200 km / 24hrs = 8.33 km/h
320 km / 24hrs = 13.3 km/h
So in the Tank Designer the Panzer IV would be a minimum of 8.33 km/h to a maximum of 13.3 km/h. Depending on which range you go with.
Or you could do an average:
260 km / 24hrs = 10.83 km/h

On top of this I have just realized that there is a fundamental new problem now with Armored Divisions. Armored Divisions have to be paired with Motorized Infantry to be effective and realistic. However, Motorized Infantry can only go at 12 Km/h maximum. And they can't be made faster. This means Tank designs can be significantly faster than your Motorized Infantry. Which obviously makes no real life or logical sense. And which means that designing fast Tanks is basically pointless because they can't effectively operate alone. A Motorized Battalion attached to a Tank Battalion should always be able to keep up with it. Trucks are vastly faster than Tanks. Especially World War 2 Tanks.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Otherwise we're just picking random numbers that have no bearing to reality.

Welcome to PDX!

They may have made a misquote and meant "Operational Range" which is a common statistic of real life Tanks.

Operational range is actually more about fuel carried and how far that will get you across various terrains. This has practically nothing to do with speed.