HoI4 DevDiary - Tank Designer

[sudpud]

Super happy with the resource management for tanks now
No longer will I forego moderns because they use chromium

Unless i'm misreading something - foregoing the chromium means your modern tanks will have bad armor. Maybe that isn't a big deal to you, but, FYI.

 

[minimouse007]

What is happening with focus bonuses? the fact that the 41 hull is 1 research away is basically a buff to any focus with armour research bonus now, as i understand now designing a good tank will depend a lot more on xp in this period, as a scarce resource, but how does it affect research, that you have moved the first medium hull (rightfully) to 34?

 

[Deathbringer620]

Unless i'm misreading something - foregoing the chromium means your modern tanks will have bad armor. Maybe that isn't a big deal to you, but, FYI.

Yeah but it won't matter much against AI. Moderns never get built in my MP games so not worried about the armour too much

 

[SilkySteve]

Just use one battalion of each type?

But he's talking about using two different medium tank battalions which isn't possible at the moment and I didn't see mentioned in the diary

 

[MrNewVegas]

It would have been much better to work on finding use-cases for the existing tanks rather than adding new tanks with no use-cases!

This is questionable game design as it basically adds complexity without depth. This is a major issue that the HOI4 designers struggle with (a recent example was the addition of different types of recon).
Especially taking into account what happened with the MTG ship designer. But I understand the need to add some shiny features to put on the DLC product page or 3D models (such as the armored car in previous DLC).

A module system is only interesting if:

1. several significantly different templates for the same unit are viable. Otherwise —and this is what happened with MTG— you're simply adding extra clicks to achieve what could be already done before. In MTG, there is for example only 1 optimal detection ship template, so why force us to click on all the modules? Same for other ships.
2. the choices you make on modules actually have an impact. Making people choose between Armor A, Armor B or Armor C is useless if difference between those modules is negligible in the final fight calculations.
3. (applies to single player only): the AI is competent enough that designing templates actually has a payoff. In MTG, that isn't the case; any template will stomp the AI, so, after the first few hours of discovery, why bother designing templates? (navies are actually not needed in single-player as the AI kills all it ships purposefully on naval bombers, but that's another topic).

Additionally, no true effort was made to balance modules MTG in subsequent patches. Balance in a module system is essential, otherwise there are optimal templates which defeat the very goal of having a module system.

Question to the devs:
Currently, we already have many different tanks, however people overwhelmingly use the same ones (medium tanks).
What makes you think that adding a template designer is beneficial to the gameplay?
What's going to happen is that people will build the same optimal design repeatedly, with extra clicks now. It would have been much better to work on finding use-cases for the existing tanks rather than adding new tanks with no use-cases!

This is an excellent point and should be addressed, but (of course) it will not be.

 

[TurnDownForWatt]

Question to the devs:
Currently, we already have many different tanks, however people overwhelmingly use the same ones (medium tanks).

If you think that Medium Tanks are optimal in Vanilla, then you have no business giving the Devs advice.

 

[safe-keeper]

Yeah, hopefully hitting auto-design-> auto-update will do a good enough job to be viable. If you are in a hyper-competitive MP I suspect it won't, but since this is the system the Ai uses we have a double incentive to make it work.

Tanks for the reply .

 

[Archangel85]

This looks really nice - exceeds my expectations, in fact. Is there any way I can get a head start on updating the Waltzing Matilda mod for it? I have all the AFV stats listed, but converting them to the designer-module format looks like a big job!

By the way: "Armoured Fighting Vehicle Designer" would work for SPGs and such as well as for "tanks". Just saying.

The script is pretty similar to the ship designer. You have your modules:

tank_gasoline_engine = {
category = tank_engine_type
sfx = sfx_ui_sd_module_engine

add_stats = {
build_cost_ic = 3
fuel_consumption = 2
maximum_speed = 1
}
multiply_stats = {
maximum_speed = 0.15
}

}

and your templates:

create_equipment_variant = {
name = "SOUMUA S35"
type = medium_tank_chassis_1
parent_version = 0
modules = {
main_armament_slot = tank_small_cannon_2
turret_type_slot = tank_medium_one_man_tank_turret
suspension_type_slot = tank_bogie_suspension
armor_type_slot = tank_welded_armor
engine_type_slot = tank_gasoline_engine
special_type_slot_1 = tank_radio_1
}

(script cut off to avoid revealing the DLC name)

So I guess the question is how much national flavor you want to put into this or if you're okay with the 2pdr having the same stats as the German 37mm.

Does that mean that the Panzer division AI will be a thing that happens, or that it is a thing that has been decided cannot be done in the current game?

It remains a design goal and tech hasn't ruled it out. But it is a more substantial rework of the AI than just a few lines of code telling it to put all its tank divisions into one container.

the occupation of Czechosvakia by the Germans will unlock some tank variant for the Germans such as Panzer 38

I knew I forgot something

 

[sudpud]

Wow, deigned with a response! Sorry, writing on the phone so....
Riveted armour:
Works worse than welded, while also being heavier. My Suggestion: give less armour/level, with higher speed penalty/level.
There was a reason that medium Designs practically never had riveted armour.

Also, I had delayed editing problems, about diesel engines:
Soviets could use an Aluminium diesel that had the same Power/weight ratio as gasoline, with less consumption. As practically everyone else used gasoline, how about a soviet diesel engine speed buff?

This is just not true. The KV2 was about 50% heavier than the GM engine in the sherman, and produced 100-150% of the output. It also had more than double the displacement, which would make the consumption higher than the GM engine. Lastly - it was far less reliable. Remember - Soviet tanks were built to last a few hundred hours - which, given the combat conditions on the eastern front - makes sense. That doesn't mean it was some wonder engine.

 

[CaptainBruh]

before it was research buffs that decided who had the better tank, but now it appears to be XP. does this mean each country will recieve more xp instead of armor research buffs? as italy you can get 3 100x research buffs, but they seem rather useless now compared to that italy gets almost no xp from their tree (just an example, but applies to all countries)

 

[Crowarior]

May I suggest a possible solution for units such as light tanks in late game?

Perhaps your could add another "tactic" or "phase" during every battle (or a chance of it happening) called something like "Combat Reconnaissance Phase".
So in this battle phase, recon forces of each division would fight and the side that wins gets better tactics and bonuses in other stages of the battle. That way you still wanna get some light tanks in some of your divisions you use for attacking. Also, limit only LTs to recon, nothing bigger than that.

Another (bigger) suggestion is, before creating a division template you HAVE to chose is it infantry or armored division. And each division type has different possible recon units available to them. So for example, infantry division wouldn't have tanks but it can have armored cars and stuff like that while armored division can have armored units in it's recon battalions/forces.

 

[Shamas MacShamas]

First game with this DLC I am going to roleplay as Loveheart with an all-tank army, infantry only around for defense of Great Britain proper. I fully expect to fall flat on my face, but it'll be fun.

 

[sudpud]

This is an excellent point and should be addressed, but (of course) it will not be.

How would you respond to this? The naval designer already allows for tremendous player choice, and the abillity to rock, paper, scissors opponent builds to some degree.

Do you want the devs to promise it will be perfectly balanced with no meta build being possible?

That's an impossible ask, especially at this stage. I can already tell that player choice will expand, which is never a bad thing.

EDIT: "Overwhelmingly use mediums" is not true in my games, so OP already isn't starting from a point of authority.

 

[coffeelingfine]

Will there be unique blueprint art in the designer window for different majors

like so I won't see the outline of a Panzer II when designing a Stuart?

Not a big deal or anything but it would add to immersion

 

[MrNewVegas]

May I suggest a possible solution for units such as light tanks in late game?

Perhaps your could add another "tactic" or "phase" during every battle (or a chance of it happening) called something like "Combat Reconnaissance Phase".
So in this battle phase, recon forces of each division would fight and the side that wins gets better tactics and bonuses in other stages of the battle. That way you still wanna get some light tanks in some of your divisions you use for attacking. Also, limit only LTs to recon, nothing bigger than that.

Another (bigger) suggestion is, before creating a division template you HAVE to chose is it infantry or armored division. And each division type has different possible recon units available to them. So for example, infantry division wouldn't have tanks but it can have armored cars and stuff like that while armored division can have armored units in it's recon battalions/forces.

Light tanks are useful at every phase in the game, just not as what you think they should be used for.
But yes, while cannot use light tanks as a shock army in the later stages of the war they are certainly useful at all stages to beat down infantry and wherever heavier armour is prohibitively supply-intensive.

Also you are just desriving the recon company, which can use light tank recon (although it is not as good as AC recon, it gives other buffs I think).
Light tanks are still better than no tank at all, and they are also excellent for quick operations.

 

[Alekscool]

Is it part of DLC or free update?

 

[blackpowder320]

I guess it's possible to make my German tanks more reliable. Hmmm, putting Christie suspensions on my Panthers and Tigers?

EDIT: Panzer IIIs and IVs are *relatively* more reliable so let's go for more reliable Big Cats )

 

[MrNewVegas]

How would you respond to this? The naval designer already allows for tremendous player choice, and the abillity to rock, paper, scissors opponent builds to some degree.

Do you want the devs to promise it will be perfectly balanced with no meta build being possible?

That's an impossible ask, especially at this stage. I can already tell that player choice will expand, which is never a bad thing.

So you agree then that the tank designer is (like the naval designer) more than likely going to be complexity without depth.
Navy is, as it currently stands, a mostly pointless excercise in clicking, because any ship + naval bombers wins in SP, and carrier + naval bomber wins in MP.

In any event, the questions asked are reasonable and if the developers cannot answer the three questions in a satisfactory way you should be seriously worried about the quality of their product.

 

[Deathbringer620]

One more question, what effect will this have on the German-Soviet Tank treaty? Thanks.

 

[sudpud]

Light tanks are useful at every phase in the game, just not as what you think they should be used for.
But yes, while cannot use light tanks as a shock army in the later stages of the war they are certainly useful at all stages to beat down infantry and wherever heavier armour is prohibitively supply-intensive.

Also you are just desriving the recon company, which can use light tank recon (although it is not as good as AC recon, it gives other buffs I think).
Light tanks are still better than no tank at all, and they are also excellent for quick operations.

Care to expand on this? Mediums are only like 5% more supply intensive, and far better. Heavies are 25% more supply intensive. I have absolutely no use for lights other than re-using starting LTs as cheap SPGs for SA. I would never build any more.