HoI4 Dev Teasers (previously Podcat's Twitter Teasers)

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Krey_Lollipop

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Was this half the common or unique half? Or was it a mix?

While I'm about 450% certain (not a typo, I expect there to be several) there's gonna be a Baltic union, I'm not entirely sold that this is it. It probably is, but it could also just be some alliance or other fluff.
 
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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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Was this half the common or unique half? Or was it a mix?

All of the Balts will share a communism branch, but will have unique historical and alt-historical branches (non-commie). This is partially the reason I think it is still possible for them to make a Finnish tree.
 
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Krey_Lollipop

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All of the Balts will share a communism branch, but will have unique historical and alt-historical branches (non-commie). This is partially the reason I think it is still possible for them to make a Finnish tree.
I got a bit uncertain because the dev-diary wasn't entirely clear. The Belarus-Lithuania SSR for one doesn't seem like something the other Baltics would pursue.

Considering all the speculation combined with the fact that they haven't told us that no, there will be no Finland (like with Italy), I'm expecting there to be a Finnish tree. Although I guess they could pull a trick on us and implement everything crucial to Finland without giving them a focus tree. That was my experience with Norway. I expected them to be in MTG because Weserübung didn't work properly back then, but instead they patched the AI et voila, now everything works fine.
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Although I guess they could pull a trick on us and implement everything crucial to Finland without giving them a focus tree.

We are soon in the sixth year of post-release development. If they don't by now give the nation that in WW2 inflicted 1.5-1.8 million casualties and took out of action 3,000-3,500 tanks and aircraft, each, which I'm quite certain is more than what France, Italy and most of the minors in WW2 did combined, a focus tree, I might just send a strongly worded letter to Podcat. :p

EDIT: Just to clarify, I keep stressing these figures not because of national pride, but because the scope of the nation's participation in WW2 is largely unknown to the general public, and that's without even talking about the importance of Finland's role in relation to Leningrad and the Murmansk Railway, in 1941-42 in particular, and the what-if scenarios related to those two (the Finnish Army was capable of bringing about an end to both during that timeframe, but chose not to).
 
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safe-keeper

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All of the Balts will share a communism branch, but will have unique historical and alt-historical branches (non-commie). This is partially the reason I think it is still possible for them to make a Finnish tree.
Of course they are making a Finnish tree. Can't have the eastern front without Finland.
 

PurpulaPhoenixum53

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Of course they are making a Finnish tree. Can't have the eastern front without Finland.

Well I mean you could, but then it wouldn't be a true Eastern Front.
 
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kaguravitro

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Of course they are making a Finnish tree. Can't have the eastern front without Finland.
No so sure. It's impossible don't have urss but I don't see why they make Finland special, possible they will pack into a Scandinavia thing. But if they make longer the new mechanic they should add more things until we burn down their studio
 
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Dryhad

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No so sure. It's impossible don't have urss but I don't see why they make Finland special, possible they will pack into a Scandinavia thing. But if they make longer the new mechanic they should add more things until we burn down their studio
USSR doesn't matter. They've been doing revamps of the majors since Waking the Tiger and they've still included new trees for the minors. The Poland revamp they've even said is free (technically, part of Poland: United and Ready, which is free DLC) so that can even be excluded as a selling point for Barbarossa; the Baltics are shared or partially shared. There is plenty of room for Finland. It seems absurd to me to conclude that because we haven't yet had a dev diary about Finland (all of, what, six dev diaries in?) that therefore there is no Finland tree.
 
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Krey_Lollipop

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We are soon in the sixth year of post-release development. If they don't by now give the nation that in WW2 inflicted 1.5-1.8 million casualties and took out of action 3,000-3,500 tanks and aircraft, each, which I'm quite certain is more than what France, Italy and most of the minors in WW2 did combined, a focus tree, I might just send a strongly worded letter to Podcat. :p

EDIT: Just to clarify, I keep stressing these figures not because of national pride, but because the scope of the nation's participation in WW2 is largely unknown to the general public, and that's without even talking about the importance of Finland's role in relation to Leningrad and the Murmansk Railway, in 1941-42 in particular, and the what-if scenarios related to those two (the Finnish Army was capable of bringing about an end to both during that timeframe, but chose not to).
Having a Finnish heritage, I've been playing many games to learn about my ancestral home recently. All Bridges Burning, Punaisten ja valkoisten taistelu Suomessa 1918 and Order of Battle: WWII. I would have also played Steel Battalion 2 if my computer was better equipped. So I'd be all for a focus tree filled with Oys, continuation wars and potential what-ifs.

However, from a pessimistic point of view, those figures say nothing. I've had similar figures in my current campaign as Lithuania and that didn't require a fancy focus tree (I even dropped the first two nukes in the world). The main issue with Finland in-game at the moment (for me at least) is that they tend to have a Winter-War and maybe a Continuation war of some kind, but I don't think I've ever seen the Lapland war. All that could however be fixed by giving the Soviets a focus or two which forces Finland to take arms again.

Still, if we don't get it, do feel free to reference me in that letter.
 
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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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There is plenty of room for Finland. It seems absurd to me to conclude that because we haven't yet had a dev diary about Finland (all of, what, six dev diaries in?) that therefore there is no Finland tree.

Considering they're enhancing the effect of weather on combat and strategy, I think that it would make sense for the Finns to get a tree. This is heightened by the fact that the DLC (not content packs) are trending bigger and bigger, so doing 5 focus trees and enormous tree for the USSR would amazing, and they've been working on it for a year. I would actually be more surprised if Finland wasn't included. 90% confidence that Finland will be in this.
 
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fr-rein

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Just to clarify, I keep stressing these figures not because of national pride, but because the scope of the nation's participation in WW2 is largely unknown to the general public, and that's without even talking about the importance of Finland's role in relation to Leningrad and the Murmansk Railway, in 1941-42 in particular, and the what-if scenarios related to those two (the Finnish Army was capable of bringing about an end to both during that timeframe, but chose not to).

WWII in East is Red Army, vodka, Katyusha fighting Nazis in public knowledge. All other nations barely have much attention.

Still, given recent Baltic tree, I am strongly inclined to believe that Finland content will be there and it won't be the nation of Europe excluded from WWII game.
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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However, from a pessimistic point of view, those figures say nothing. I've had similar figures in my current campaign as Lithuania and that didn't require a fancy focus tree (I even dropped the first two nukes in the world).

Sure, in HoI4 you can conquer the world as Luxembourg and cause a hundred million casualties as the AI grinds against your lines endlessly. But that doesn't mean a nation's historical involvement in WW2 shouldn't matter. The game is still at its core, or at least is marketed as, a WW2 grand strategy game; in other words, what happened in WW2 should matter. If it were up to me (and if I didn't have to worry about money), I'd have used historical involvement as a metric on which country gets content first... But I know that's not the most profitable business model for the game, so it is what it is.

The main issue with Finland in-game at the moment (for me at least) is that they tend to have a Winter-War and maybe a Continuation war of some kind, but I don't think I've ever seen the Lapland war.

The Winter War basically exists in the game only in name, the Continuation and Lapland Wars not even in that. I'm still hoping PDX fixes that at least to some extent in this upcoming DLC, but they've already done a gigantic Polish tree, smaller Baltic trees, and the USSR's tree will probably be even bigger than Poland's. I'm worried there's not enough steam (or financial incentive) left in this DLC to still make a reasonably large Finnish tree as well, though some of the stuff in the latest Estonian tree reveal gives me a bit of hope.

Once they do eventually make a Finnish tree, I do hope they do justice to the fact that Finland was at war during every year of WW2: 30.11.1939-13.3.1940, 25.6.1941-19.9.1944 and 15.9.1944-27.4.1945 (WW, CW and LW respectively), and never collapsed, unlike many of the countries who already have focus trees, many of whom collapsed in mere weeks or did not fight at all, and deliver the historical and plausible what-if content that fact deserves.
 
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We are soon in the sixth year of post-release development. If they don't by now give the nation that in WW2 inflicted 1.5-1.8 million casualties and took out of action 3,000-3,500 tanks and aircraft, each, which I'm quite certain is more than what France, Italy and most of the minors in WW2 did combined, a focus tree, I might just send a strongly worded letter to Podcat. :p

EDIT: Just to clarify, I keep stressing these figures not because of national pride, but because the scope of the nation's participation in WW2 is largely unknown to the general public, and that's without even talking about the importance of Finland's role in relation to Leningrad and the Murmansk Railway, in 1941-42 in particular, and the what-if scenarios related to those two (the Finnish Army was capable of bringing about an end to both during that timeframe, but chose not to).
Sorry but no. No, they didn’t want to but couldn’t. The Finnish troops were stopped and there was a stalemate when both sides did not have the strength to solve the problem.
 
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Sure, in HoI4 you can conquer the world as Luxembourg and cause a hundred million casualties as the AI grinds against your lines endlessly. But that doesn't mean a nation's historical involvement in WW2 shouldn't matter. The game is still at its core, or at least is marketed as, a WW2 grand strategy game; in other words, what happened in WW2 should matter. If it were up to me (and if I didn't have to worry about money), I'd have used historical involvement as a metric on which country gets content first... But I know that's not the most profitable business model for the game, so it is what it is.



The Winter War basically exists in the game only in name, the Continuation and Lapland Wars not even in that. I'm still hoping PDX fixes that at least to some extent in this upcoming DLC, but they've already done a gigantic Polish tree, smaller Baltic trees, and the USSR's tree will probably be even bigger than Poland's. I'm worried there's not enough steam (or financial incentive) left in this DLC to still make a reasonably large Finnish tree as well, though some of the stuff in the latest Estonian tree reveal gives me a bit of hope.

Once they do eventually make a Finnish tree, I do hope they do justice to the fact that Finland was at war during every year of WW2: 30.11.1939-13.3.1940, 25.6.1941-19.9.1944 and 15.9.1944-27.4.1945 (WW, CW and LW respectively), and never collapsed, unlike many of the countries who already have focus trees, many of whom collapsed in mere weeks or did not fight at all, and deliver the historical and plausible what-if content that fact deserves.
Just to clarify, what I meant was that Finland doesn't really need neither a focus tree nor historical flavour (generals, graphics, companies etc) to make the game live up to a decent (but not perfect) historical standard. It could all be done far easier by just giving the Soviets and the Germans focuses that shove Finland in the right direction.

But that is as I said a very pessimistic point of view.

(EDIT) Also, I've probably never played as Finland, and that's probably in large because they do a really poor job of selling the country. Why would I want to play as them when the LW is missing entirely and the CW I have to start manually? The lack of content beyond that makes it even less appealing.
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Sorry but no. No, they didn’t want to but couldn’t. The Finnish troops were stopped and there was a stalemate when both sides did not have the strength to solve the problem.

In August 1941 the Finns reached their pre-1940 border on the Karelian Isthmus and in some places crossed it to straighten the frontline (the old border formed a wedge into the Finnish side of the Isthmus), this necessitated punching through the Russian Karelian Fortified Region (KaUR) in some places which was done. The divisions expected to continue the advance, and plans for continuing the advance on the eastern part of the Isthmus were drawn up, but Mannerheim who was not interested in the destruction of St. Petersburg (Leningrad), deemed sufficient defensive positions had been reached and halted the advance.

The Finnish divisions remained in good condition and the strength of the Finnish forces near the KaUR on the Karelian Isthmus in September 1941 was 2.5x that of the Russian defenders. Strength figures from 6.9.1941, picture is self-explanatory and needn't translation:

1621450941843.png


Excluding the 3 artillery and 1 heavy artillery battalion of the 8th Division and the coastal artillery reserved for coastal brigades still in the process of forming, the Finns in the beginning of September 1941 had 184 light cannon, 44 medium howitzers, 40 medium cannon, 68 heavy howitzers and 18 very heavy howitzers near the vicinity of the KaUR. The 8th Division was further back on the Isthmus near Koivisto, but could have been used in puncturing through the KaUR if so desired. Similarly, coastal artillery could have supported the advance as it had done during the reconquest of the Karelian Isthmus in the past month.

Table of Finnish artillery formations and equipment on the Isthmus at the beginning of September, excluding coastal artillery:

1621453007273.png


Guide to units:
I/KTR 11 = First battalion of Field Artillery Regiment 11
Rask.Psto 21 = Heavy Artillery Battalion 21
10. Jär.Ptri = 10th Very Heavy Artillery Company
Patteristo, shortened psto. = battalion-sized artillery unit
Patteri, shortened ptri. = company-sized artillery unit

Guide to equipment:
9/203 H 17 = nine 203mm model 1917 howitzers
12/105 K 29 = twelve 105mm model 1929 cannon
H = Howitzer
K = Cannon

The Finns facing the KaUR enjoyed approximately a 2:1 advantage in the amount of artillery compared to the Russians, and over 2:1 in terms of firepower, taking into account the more numerical heavy artillery the Finns possessed. The Russian 23rd Army on the KaUR had under 200 guns, of which only 22 were 152mm.

The reconquest of Finnish Karelia had proven the Finns were fully capable of breaching heavily fortified defences, and it is likely the Finns could have punched through the rest of the KaUR and cut Leningrad from its access to Lake Ladoga, resulting in the city's capitulation some weeks later. The strong rear fortifications of the KaUR known from later during the war did not yet exist in September 1941.

The above pictures and most of the information is from a thesis called The actions of the Finnish Army against the Karelian Fortified Region in September 1941 (Suomen Armeijan toiminta Karjalan linnoitusaluetta vastaan syyskuussa 1941).

Similarly, and one could say even more certainly, the Finnish Army was completely able to cut the Murmansk railway by spring 1942 with a strike to Sorokka (Soroka/Belomorsk) from the Rukajärvi-Maaselkä (Rugozero-Maselgskaya) direction. The Russian forces facing the Finns there were weak and withered down from poor supply, and a Finnish detachment that had previously blown up a section of the Murmansk railway in January 1942 had proven how vulnerable the railway was. With the commitment of only a few divisions, the Finns would have outnumbered the Russian defenders 3:1 and been able to reach Sorokka and cut the Murmansk railway, after which it was planned that defence of the Sorokka area be handed over to the Germans.

Here I'm using another thesis, called The Sorokka-plan: The importance of information from reconnaissance in the preparation of the operation during January-March 1942 (quite a mouthful when translated to English from the original: Sorokka-suunnitelma: Tiedustelutietojen merkitys operaation valmistelussa tammi-maaliskuussa 1942), which goes to great lengths of assessing the feasibility of the plan and concluding that it would have been completely possible to carry it out successfully with a few divisions.

Mannerheim stopped the Finnish Army, not the Russians. The reasons for this were mainly political: the Finns had achieved their goals of reaching defensively favourable terrain, wanted to maintain that they were in a separate defensive war against the Russians and not a part of the German war of conquest, and did not want the Americans to declare war on them, which they would have, had the Finns permanently cut the Murmansk railway. And then there were Mannerheim's personal feelings on the city of St. Petersburg, having spent much of his life there, which I think were the primary reasons behind his reluctance to engage in any kind of hostility towards the city.

Also if you want to continue this, I suggest it be done in a new thread.

EDIT (to avoid double-posting):

Just to clarify, what I meant was that Finland doesn't really need neither a focus tree nor historical flavour (generals, graphics, companies etc) to make the game live up to a decent historical standard.

You can't reach historical performance as Finland with historical force ratios, not even close. You'll be curb stomped even by AI SOV under those conditions.

See e.g.:

Ironically, 13.3.1940 the Russians had 58 divisions on the Finnish front, another 4 nominally under the Finnish Democratic Republic, though these 4 were less than half the size of a Russian division, and another 10 divisions in reserve. Furthermore there were 3 airlanding brigades, 1 infantry-MG brigade, 8 tank brigades, 10 tank regiments, various border and reinforcement brigades. These amounted to 11,266 artillery guns and mortars, 2,998 tanks, 3,885 aircraft, in total about 1,000,000 men.

Those figures are off, for both sides. Considering that these figures are supposed to include all forces that participated in the war, even if it's not simultaneously, a more accurate listing of statistics would be:

Soviet Union
1,500,000 men (200,000-300,000 KIA/MIA, 300,000-600,000 WIA, 5,000 POW)
c. 6,541 tanks (3,179 were "lost" on the Karelian Isthmus alone, hundreds in other sectors, of which 2,200-2,500 to enemy action, the rest to breakdowns. Hundreds repaired or recaptured post-war)
c. 4,500-5,000 aircraft (1,000 lost, possibly more, c. 650-700 to enemy action)

Finland
372,000 men (25,904 KIA/MIA, 43,557 WIA, 1,000 POW)
c. 13+ tanks (13 Vickers 6-tons, a handful of WW1 Renault FT-17s that were only used as static, dug in defences. 8 Vickers 6-tons lost in combat/due to breakdowns. A number of Renault FT-17s were either lost or abandoned where they were after the peace - recaptured in the Continuation War as they were so obsolete even the Russians didn't bother taking them)
c. 230 aircraft (64 lost, 47 to enemy action; 35 to enemy fighters, 8 to AA)

Navies also played a role, e.g. the Red Banner Baltic Fleet had orders to cut Finland's vital trade routes, but failed in this. I won't go into detail regarding navies though since they weren't mentioned and weren't ultimately that relevant because of the ice. And honestly because writing this post and checking all the figures has taken too long already. :p This Finnish Wikipedia article covers naval activities during the war in some detail, use Google Translate if you're interested (the English article on the topic is lackluster by comparison): https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisodan_merisotatoimet

Minor corrections to the above: there were 1.2M Red Army soldiers on the front 13.3.1940, the total amount of Finnish participants in the WW number at around 400k, and there were about 38 Finnish tanks (20 Renault FT-17s and 18 Vickers 6-tons). Also, taking into account the casualties the Russians received, and their frontline strength at the end of the war, the number of Red Army soldiers that participated in the WW is likely more than 1.5M, probably closer to 2M.
 
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Crecer13

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In August 1941 the Finns reached their pre-1940 border on the Karelian Isthmus and in some places crossed it to straighten the frontline (the old border formed a wedge into the Finnish side of the Isthmus), this necessitated punching through the Russian Karelian Fortified Region (KaUR) in some places which was done. The divisions expected to continue the advance, and plans for continuing the advance on the eastern part of the Isthmus were drawn up, but Mannerheim who was not interested in the destruction of St. Petersburg (Leningrad), deemed sufficient defensive positions had been reached and halted the advance.

Excuse me, but in the conditions that developed on that front and the Romanians could break through the defenses. On 06/22/1941, the 142nd Rifle Division defended a front with a length of 59 kilometers. The neighboring 115th Rifle Division defended a 47-kilometer front. Let me remind you that the Rifle Division, according to the Field Regulations, must defend a front with a length of 8-12 kilometers.

And as much as you wanted to talk about the very popular theory that the Finns didn't want to continue, the Finns just didn't cant to. The Finns found themselves in a difficult situation, their troops were divided between Ladoga and Onega lakes, between which there was no railroad and advance in this sector from the flank attack.

By the end of 1941, the Finnish casualties were 80% of the potential annual conscripts. How long could the Finns advance with such losses?
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Excuse me, but in the conditions that developed on that front and the Romanians could break through the defenses. On 06/22/1941, the 142nd Rifle Division defended a front with a length of 59 kilometers. The neighboring 115th Rifle Division defended a 47-kilometer front. Let me remind you that the Rifle Division, according to the Field Regulations, must defend a front with a length of 8-12 kilometers.

And as much as you wanted to talk about the very popular theory that the Finns didn't want to continue, the Finns just didn't cant to. The Finns found themselves in a difficult situation, their troops were divided between Ladoga and Onega lakes, between which there was no railroad and advance in this sector from the flank attack.

Ok, you just ignored everything I said. That's fine, but it also means it's useless to continue this discussion with you.

By the end of 1941, the Finnish casualties were 80% of the potential annual conscripts. How long could the Finns advance with such losses

The Finns suffered 26,355 dead and missing, and under 50,000 wounded (most of which returned to service) during 1941, or a total of about 13-15% of the entire armed forces (about 500,000 men in June 1941, not including subsequent reinforcements). There were 850,578 men in Finland between the ages of 20 and 49 at the end of 1940, or 1,032,567 when including ages 20-59. Yeah, I think you're a bit off with that 80%... :)
 
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Crecer13

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The Finns suffered 26,355 dead and missing, and under 50,000 wounded (most of which returned to service) during 1941, or a total of about 13-15% of the entire armed forces (about 500,000 men in June 1941, not including subsequent reinforcements). There were 850,578 men in Finland between the ages of 20 and 49 at the end of 1940, or 1,032,567 when including ages 20-59. Yeah, I think you're a bit off with that 80%... :)

Call Bernd Wegner insane. From Peace to War: Germany, Soviet Russia, and the World, 1939-1941
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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He looks to be quoting Helge Seppälä. Thing is, even if the total casualty figure were 80% of a single age group being called up, that's still a drop in the bucket when you have 30 or even 40 age groups to draw from. Given that most wounded recovered to fighting condition, probably about 30-40k of 1941 losses were irrecoverable. Even if breaching the KaUR and cutting the Murmansk railway would have doubled the losses of 1941, which it probably would not have, it would have been sustainable.

To illustrate the point, by the time the Continuation War ended on 19.9.1944, the FDF had suffered a total of about 224k casualties, 63k of those dead or missing, 294k and 89k respectively when including the Winter War, yet it was larger and better equipped than ever before in its history, standing at about 530k men. Actually it likely could have gone on a successful offensive and retaken much of the territory lost in June 1944 after the Russians had depleted their forces in Karelia against the Finnish VKT and U-lines, and in the marshlands east of Ilomantsi, had the Finnish leadership chose to gamble and continue the war, rather than get out when peace terms were no longer unconditional surrender, as they had been during the summer of 1944 until the Finnish victories of July and August.
 
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Sure, in HoI4 you can conquer the world as Luxembourg and cause a hundred million casualties as the AI grinds against your lines endlessly. But that doesn't mean a nation's historical involvement in WW2 shouldn't matter. The game is still at its core, or at least is marketed as, a WW2 grand strategy game; in other words, what happened in WW2 should matter. If it were up to me (and if I didn't have to worry about money), I'd have used historical involvement as a metric on which country gets content first... But I know that's not the most profitable business model for the game, so it is what it is.



The Winter War basically exists in the game only in name, the Continuation and Lapland Wars not even in that. I'm still hoping PDX fixes that at least to some extent in this upcoming DLC, but they've already done a gigantic Polish tree, smaller Baltic trees, and the USSR's tree will probably be even bigger than Poland's. I'm worried there's not enough steam (or financial incentive) left in this DLC to still make a reasonably large Finnish tree as well, though some of the stuff in the latest Estonian tree reveal gives me a bit of hope.

Once they do eventually make a Finnish tree, I do hope they do justice to the fact that Finland was at war during every year of WW2: 30.11.1939-13.3.1940, 25.6.1941-19.9.1944 and 15.9.1944-27.4.1945 (WW, CW and LW respectively), and never collapsed, unlike many of the countries who already have focus trees, many of whom collapsed in mere weeks or did not fight at all, and deliver the historical and plausible what-if content that fact deserves.
I don’t disagree, but it seems the trend has been larger focus trees as development continues. War contribution is a secondary consideration.

I mean, look at Mexico, Spain, Portugal etc. their trees are massive. USA, Germany, UK and Japan are tiny by comparison, and 2 of those have been “updated” twice.
 
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