HOI4 Dev Diary - Yugoslavia and Romania

HOI4 Dev Diary - Yugoslavia and Romania

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Mr.Grizzly

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It's a real shame considering much of the work of liberating Yugoslavia was done by the partisans. Yugoslavia is practically begging for a post-capitulation aspect to its tree.
They deserve it more then the Netherlands do, I love the Dutch country and I have recent ancestry to it, especially for the time, but the Dutch military didn't show up from the East Indies and save it, it primarily was saved by Canadian and some British and American troops. Meanwhile, Yugoslavia actually saved itself as Germany pulled more and more troops out and the partisan groups grew and grew, up to ~650,000 by late '44. They fought battles for years against the Germans, Croats and Italians. So they absolutely need a post-invasion tree.

Personally I would make Greece, who needs partisans too, and Yugoslavia be like France, after occupation starts a new tree starts. For Yugoslavia, and I'm talking about historical mode for these countries, Croatia should become a puppet of Italy, since a co-puppet mechanic would be hard, and have its own tree of dealing with the Balkans, perhaps keeping loyal to the Axis or going against it, maybe you make it like Bulgaria and ask for new states to patrol and make a new Yugoslavia but its dominated by Catholic Croats and not Orthodox Serbs, add the choice between keeping a fascist government or embrace the monarchy, they had a King but never really did much but still would be fun path. While a Free Yugoslavia is made, the player would have choices between which ideology becomes the dominate one, so historical would be communist, but you could choose democratic or monarchist ones and fight to liberate Yugoslavia. Greece would be very similar, the Hellenic State would be made, the Axis puppet of Italy, and would have its path, while a Free Greece would have its options as well. There is so much rich gameplay potential in the Balkans and its being ignored, and I understand there are more important fronts, but I fear they won't come back and do these missing major gameplay changes.
 
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Right now, Romania's AI will not change sides unless historical AIs are turned on and the historical changing sides date has been reached.
The problem with this is that in-game, WW2 lasts much shorter, it is usually over by 1943 in Europe. It should rather be tied to Romanian surrender progress plus the Soviet Union having posession of all its cores again.
 
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The problem with this is that in-game, WW2 lasts much shorter, it is usually over by 1943 in Europe.
Maybe the upcoming Barbarossa release will make the war follow a more historical time frame? Though I agree it is a better design coded to conditions and events, than dates.
 
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The problem with this is that in-game, WW2 lasts much shorter, it is usually over by 1943 in Europe. It should rather be tied to Romanian surrender progress plus the Soviet Union having posession of all its cores again.
Agreed. As it stands the implementation mentioned by Meka is the worst possible one in my opinion because it's totally arbitrary. What if the Soviets have been defeated by August 1944?

It seems with the way it's implemented you could have the following scenario: August, 1944. The Soviet Union has already been defeated and annexed by Germany. Britain has capitulated and the entire continents of Asia and Europe are in Axis hands with only the United States and its allies in the Western Hemisphere remaining. Romania switches sides to the allies. This situation doesn't make any sense to me and seems very silly.

We'll probably just mod this out entirely with our house MP mod.. I think it would have made more sense to just not have the AI do it at all and make it a player only thing that just have the AI do it arbitrarily regardless of how the war is going.

Additionally, it seems like it would make more sense if when Romania switches sides that it joins the Comintern rather than the in-game Allies faction.
 
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The flags are unchanged from when the tags were originally added in the MtG patch. Kosovo in particular had no flag until the 1990s, and in-game is largely used to represent Albanian minorities in Yugoslavia. Changing up the Bosnian and Macedonian flags is something that could be considered, but there largely doesn't exist a "Non-Aligned" Macedonian flag from this time period so we'll either be going too far back in history or too far ahead.
Official flags of Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina:
800px-Bosnian-Herzegovinian_Partisans_flag.svg.png

1942 - 1946

800px-Flag_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_(1946–1992).svg.png

1946 - 1992

Either one is much better than 1998 - 2020.
 
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Paradox
Don't, you, like, have anyone capable of just reading a wikipedia on Yugoslav state from its emergence to death?
Wikipedia is wrong, very wrong, in a lot of stuff, not just Balkan wars, but it's the rightest of all the wrongs you see on the internet.
Some will say this is typical Balkan people rattle. But this is just becoming insulting in any game you create. I find it insulting personally, and even if I disagree with a lot of my country neighbours, they'd agree with me on this one.

Ustaša were not even a threat to Yugoslavia, they were never considered at that time as any sort of solution, any sort of saviors in the eyes of Croatian people.
Crushing the Ustaša focus is so wrong
I mean, it should exist, because they were indeed a threat to Yugoslavia in some ways, but crushing the Ustaša has NOTHING to do with Croatians back then. What I want to say is, crushing the Ustaša would not solve the Croatian question and demands for autonomy, they never represented anyone, they held no office, had no influence over the generals or anything before they took power in 1941. They were indeed most aggressive, let's call them 'party' back in the day, but a long road to be of ANY influence in Croatian politics. They became prominent when they were offered to lead the state. And they were offered to lead the state not because they had omnipotent influence in Croatia and Croatian people minds, but because Vladko Maček and HSS, the strongest and most influential party in Croatia REFUSED to lead the state. Hitler wanted Vladko Maček to lead the state of Croatia, not Ante Pavelic and his Ustaše organization. They were trained in Italy, by Italians, to serve as rulers of Croatia when Yugoslavia falls. Hitler had to accept their leadership because no one else would take it.

What happened afterwards, is another story of it's own. Gradually they did become something, they ruled the state, it's obvious they'd gain influence. And with fascist politics they did 'persuade' and persuade a lot of people that they were, are, and will be the only choice in Croatian politics.
Ways to represent some ahistorical rise to Ustaša before they became prominent would be by events and decisions, which would gradually increase some 'Ustaša' anger and raise their sympathies among the people. Them leading an independence uprising is plain wrong, they had no means to do it, and Italy did support them but that would never be enough. Perhaps some events for Italy too, were they would arm them more too would be more logical then this.

What also bothers me is the fact you are using some modern day flags in Yugoslav focus tree, like Bosnian one. This is wrong on so many levels. If only there are no flags from the time period I'd understand - but there is A PLETHORA of flags for every time period of any Balkan state.

Also Pavle Karađorđević is not a collaborator by his nature, or evil intentions. He wanted to save the state from destruction. Because he was never a German loyalist or something as he is represented in your games, but rather the opposite. A guy with intelligence who realized Britain is very, very, far away, and Germany suddenly bordered his country. He is not a fascist. A failed coup would result in Yugoslavia staying even more with Axis, and not be divided by them with their territory taken and made into a puppet. If that happened Pavle would not be the in charge, you have other people in Yugoslavia for those positions.

Where are Četniks, where are Tito's partisans ( and no, focuses for communism before the war are no partisans )
Things in Yugoslavia emerged one after another. Tito became popular in the war, because Germans and Italians destroyed the place and left it to Ustašas to guard who destroyed it even more in collaboration with rogue Četniks.
Nothing happens when Yugoslavia falls to the Axis. It just stays occupied. If it gets liberated in the war it gets liberated as a monarchy. That was not how it happened in history. Because Tito's Yugoslavia emerged in the middle of the war which is entirely different and long topic of how and when.

You make communists focus trees for some implausible things, like Turkey and Greece joining Yugoslav Communist sphere, and yet you cannot make a simple event of another Yugoslavia happening in occupied territories if Germany starts to lose the war. That's when TITO happened, not in 1936, when he was a nobody.
Uh Oh boys looks like the angary Croats have arrived ;)
 
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By that logic, why even try making it historical or even interesting?

Unfortunately PDX didn't really try with Yugoslavia, and the Croats (and other former Yugoslavia people) have a point. And they aren't really being "angry" about it.
 
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Hello there!

I've achieved the change sides event for Romania in my mod (Romania - The Turning Point) and it is very accurate and it's using the white peace deal in order to achieve a separated peace deal for Romania with the commies and with the Allies, feel free to use any of it!

Letting the political stuff away I'd like to tell you that the National Focus of Romania needs quite a few adjustments for the Air Tree.

123.png

Romania was known for having very talented fighter pilots, maybe getting a focus tree that would generate like +25% Aces would be quite a big deal for Romania!
Also maybe it can be mutually exclusive with a 3x100% Doctrine Research Bonus to be balanced (of any doctrine, please allow the palyer to choose the doctrine!)
Romania has no Jet Research Bonus and the Nuclear Bonus is only achievable if you follow the strategic bomber subtree which as mentioned above it's not something you would actually want to do.
Speaking of doctrines... Romania also does not benefit from any Land Doctrine Research Bonus so please consider those as future changes! JL
 
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And this is why doing anything in the Balkans is constantly put in the "too hard" basket. No matter what you do, you trigger one group.
You don't get it.
It's not about doing something right or wrong.
History is a fact. We, ex-YU people may disagree on which politican wanted what, and who was a Serb, who was a Croat, who was a Bosnian.
But history HAPPENED, there is no two ways of history. There is though, a million of ways to interpret history. And that doesn't and shouldn't be in the game.

Things like realistic borders of Banovinas of Yugoslavia should be in the game, if that is the focus of the patch.
If this is a historical game, then I expect Alsace-Lorraine to look as it should, and it does. If this is a historical game, then I expect Sudetenland to look like it should, and it does. And if this is a patch focusing on Yugoslav internal issues and regions, then I expect Banovinas to look like they did, and they DON'T.

Banovinas didn't look like this


But like this:



And in the game this should be represented atleast similar. Those Banovinas should be cutted in two or more pieces so late borders of occupied Yugoslavia can be represented historically. I mean, why is there Kosovo banovina? Why is Kosovo even represented in the game? It doesn't even BELONG to this timeline and is of no issue back then. You are just appesing todays standards.

I mean, I don't want to bash on Meka or anyone, they surely did something, it's going in some direction and focus on these regions is applaudable. But don't say you did it right, because you didn't.
Borders are not even the big issue. We can live with Kosovo Banovina, but it's just a shame that some important things that actually happened are left out while fictional things are getting into the game. It's just insulting. And always have been.
 
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Things like realistic borders of Banovinas of Yugoslavia should be in the game, if that is the focus of the patch.

If this is a historical game, then I expect Alsace-Lorraine to look as it should, and it does. If this is a historical game, then I expect Sudetenland to look like it should, and it does. And if this is a patch focusing on Yugoslav internal issues and regions, then I expect Banovinas to look like they did, and they DON'T.
Is not as simple as that, sadly unless you can claim individual tiles or several micro-provinces it is impossible to represent the exact borders. Sure they could make the Banovinas look as in history by modifying the map, but the historical occupation zones would be even more impossible to represent. Paradox instead went for a compromise where you can somewhat represent historical occupations zones, somewhat represent the Banovinas and somewhat represent modern borders leaving everyone who wants a perfect representation of any of them unhappy.

But even so I do think the map nowadays (maybe Macedonia aside) is much better that previous iterations in the game.
 
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Paradox instead went for a compromise where you can somewhat represent historical occupations zones, somewhat represent the Banovinas and somewhat represent modern borders leaving everyone who wants a perfect representation of any of them unhappy.

But even so I do think the map nowadays (maybe Macedonia aside) is much better that previous iterations in the game.
The problem with this compromise is that they won't be able to please either group. The main issue with modern borders is that it's not ahistorical, it's actual 90s history being showed into interwar-ww2 period of Yugoslavia and that just doesn't work. If the game takes place during the WW2, the actual historical occupation borders would need to be at num. 1 place when it comes priorities. Because it's not, Germany, Italy, Croatia, Albania all look terrible on the map. Even Bulgaria with the upcoming update will look silly with entire Macedonia being annexed to them.

I don't mind Yugoslavia having new devolution path but using modern borders in the path is silly, it's like if Hitler would suddenly decide to split Germany into East and West states or if Stalin would grant complete independence to Belarus, Ukraine (along with Crimea) and the rest of Soviet republics in the east.
 
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The problem with this compromise is that they won't be able to please either group. The main issue with modern borders is that it's not ahistorical, it's actual 90s history being showed into interwar-ww2 period of Yugoslavia and that just doesn't work. If the game takes place during the WW2, the actual historical occupation borders would need to be at num. 1 place when it comes priorities. Because it's not, Germany, Italy, Croatia, Albania all look terrible on the map. Even Bulgaria with the upcoming update will look silly with entire Macedonia being annexed to them.

I don't mind Yugoslavia having new devolution path but using modern borders in the path is silly, it's like if Hitler would suddenly decide to split Germany into East and West states or if Stalin would grant complete independence to Belarus, Ukraine (along with Crimea) and the rest of Soviet republics in the east.
I completely agree with the historical borders and it's a shame we're now so, so close to getting them correct but maybe they'll get rectified in the future and if not, I've got a mod to go live once the update drops to add them in so it's no sweat, unless you play ironman ofc.

I get what you're saying and I partially agree, but it's also for the most part wrong, in a sense. I got a response saying that the banovinas are not the same as the are historically, flavour-wise maybe view it as restructuring the banovinan breakdown into more culture/people based groups instead of arbitrary lines, which they (for the most part) were. The only argument I have against that is that it's still a bit all over the place when it comes to names, and personally I think they should all be changed from their historical banovinan names to avoid confusion.

Also, the "modern" borders that they're pushing for aren't modern; the modern borders of the former Yugoslav states, bar Croatia I think, all followed the same border layout that was in the SFR of Yugoslavia, which puts the divisions in place around 1946 so within the game's time frame of 1936-1948.
SFRY.png

Which is why, all things considered, it'd be more consistent if the newer banovinas that you can decide to release followed a bit more of a similar border structure, having two states in the Vojvodina seems like a bit too border-gorey and unnecessary, for me at least haha.

EDIT: I do agree with you in the sense that historical occupation borders should be of a priority, though I feel it's something that might just have to be fixed through mods unfortunately.
 
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Pbhuh

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The problem with this compromise is that they won't be able to please either group. The main issue with modern borders is that it's not ahistorical, it's actual 90s history being showed into interwar-ww2 period of Yugoslavia and that just doesn't work. If the game takes place during the WW2, the actual historical occupation borders would need to be at num. 1 place when it comes priorities. Because it's not, Germany, Italy, Croatia, Albania all look terrible on the map. Even Bulgaria with the upcoming update will look silly with entire Macedonia being annexed to them.

I don't mind Yugoslavia having new devolution path but using modern borders in the path is silly, it's like if Hitler would suddenly decide to split Germany into East and West states or if Stalin would grant complete independence to Belarus, Ukraine (along with Crimea) and the rest of Soviet republics in the east.
What borders are most important and what borders are less important really depends.

The Banovina Borders are less important to me because they conflict so much with other borders.

When a majority of borders agree, the borders that are most conflicting with the rest should be less important.

687px-Scs_kingdom_provinces_1920_1922_en.png

Banovine_Jugoslavia.png

Axis_occupation_of_Yugoslavia_1941-43.png

1280px-Former_Yugoslavia_2008.png

When we compare this to the proposed states.

I think they did make odd choices and less important choices.

Yugo New States (1).png

First off, Dalmatia and Croatia States need to actually represent the historical borders.

Morava and Serbia being seperate states is pointless.

The amount of states in the south with the irredentist claims seems a tad extreme.

Slovenia being split up on 2 states is fine.

And please make a Srem State or move Srem to Serbia, because this one is the biggest problem with creating modern post yugoslav states. One state fixes at least 4/5 maps. That's a massive gain in accuracy.
 
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Karl I

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The problem with this compromise is that they won't be able to please either group. The main issue with modern borders is that it's not ahistorical, it's actual 90s history being showed into interwar-ww2 period of Yugoslavia and that just doesn't work. If the game takes place during the WW2, the actual historical occupation borders would need to be at num. 1 place when it comes priorities. Because it's not, Germany, Italy, Croatia, Albania all look terrible on the map. Even Bulgaria with the upcoming update will look silly with entire Macedonia being annexed to them.

I don't mind Yugoslavia having new devolution path but using modern borders in the path is silly, it's like if Hitler would suddenly decide to split Germany into East and West states or if Stalin would grant complete independence to Belarus, Ukraine (along with Crimea) and the rest of Soviet republics in the east.
You toutched quite an interesting subject. "Hearts of Iron IV lets you take command of any nation in World War II; the most engaging conflict in world history.". Hearts of Iron IV is, according to the game own description, supposed to be setted in WW2. While we all can enjoy ahistorical paths, the game's first priority should be f*cking WW2, not Cold war, not ww1 and not Victorian Era. This recent paths with an clear alt-history in mind (despite being very enjoyable) cannot forget the main focus of the game is WW2. It bother's me personally how I have to pick up mods to have borders resembling WW2 in a game that should be about WW2.
 
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Eligha

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Glad to see the Romanian changes aswell. Did not expect that, but it was needed and is welcomed! Especially changing sides during the war, something that was most needed to better represent Romania late war.

This might be too much to ask, but will Hungary be able to do the same? They tried to change sides aswell. Did not go so well because of the German invasion and parallell fighting with you guessed right; Romania.
This would be so cool! Historically, after german invasion Ferenc Szálasi and the Nyilaszkeresztes párt came to power. They could even be a german puppet ingame, if the player failed to switch sides. Although I wonder what structural changes would a succesful change of sides would bring.
 
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I hope that the "flip all subjects fascists after the failed coup" will put proper figureheads in the fascist states.
For example, Leon Rupnik, who was the leader of occupied Slovenia.
View attachment 634358

Also, he should be added in as a general since he was a general in Yugoslav army and responsible for building the Rupnik-line (the defensive built on the border with Italy and Austria, based on the Maginot Line, but sadly it never saw completion due to the Axis invasion).
Also on the latter note, there should be a focus added that ACTUALLY builds up the Rupnik Line to the finish to give Yugoslavia some proper fortifications like how Netherlands got them.
1601664409137.png
 

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LogOutGames

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I posted this a few days ago, but I just wanted to drop this here as well just in case the devs didn't see it.

Judging from the latest Paradox stream showing off the new DLC Muntenia still is one huge state. Since Yugoslavia and Romania are getting overhauled and Bulgaria is getting its own focus tree it would be nice if you divided Muntenia in two.


Screenshot 2020-09-26 1722031.jpg


It would be nice if Muntenia was split into two different states.

20200926171304_11.png


The new state should be created from Muntenia's provinces that lie to the south-east of the Danube river.
Maybe Bulgaria could even get a claim to this new state.

This shouldn't be that hard to implement and it would open up a way for players to annex territory only to the south-east of the Danube.

Thanks for reading.
 
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xtfoster

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Personally I would make Greece, who needs partisans too, and Yugoslavia be like France, after occupation starts a new tree starts.
I don't see a direct correlation. France had overseas territories that weren't under (German) occupation, and once they start to get control of them they need an actual tree specific for that part of their 'resistance'. Greece, Poland, Yugoslavia, and others don't really need anything not provided by by the GiE and espionage systems (just don't forget to build your network before being occupied).
 
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