HOI4 Dev Diary - Yugoslavia and Air Zones

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Sarmatian

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The things with Croats would make sense if Ustaše had any actual influence in Croatia prior to 1941. They didn't, they were a terrorist organization that was situated in Italy. HSS was the main representative of the Croatian people and had the influence you are talking about.

As for Yugoslavia not having much of an impact... I know it is not a common knowledge unfortunately but Yugoslavia supplied 40% of German led during the war, as well as chromium, bauxite and copper (Yugoslavia had the biggest copper mine in Europe at the time, was second in chromium only to Turkey and so on) and during the war hundreds of thousands of German soldiers had to be stationed in Yugoslavia to fight the partisans (who were blowing up the supply lines for Africa Corps as well) that negated their use on the Eastern Front.

So quite a big influence.

You're arguing semantics now. It doesn't matter if we call them Ustase or Radical Movement # 25312. It's a simple choice that works well withing game's framework: establish autocratic control and deal with a radical movement OR promote autonomous rule to an extent and cut the support for the radical movement.

I know about Yugoslavia's contribution. Citing figures without context or interesting trivia isn't going to change the fact that Yugoslavian contribution to the war was MINOR compared to the MAJORS (USSR, US, UK...). This is not belittling Yugoslavia or Yugoslavians. Pound for pound, Yugoslavia certainly did more than its part, but in absolute terms, it doesn't come close to the majors.
The focus tree is unique and interesting, allowing for various what if scenarions and offering good replay value. That should be enough.
 

King-Salomon

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just looking at the discussion here, I am glad there is no voice over for yugoslavia !

Guess what would have happened if they recorded "the wrong" dialect/language/speaker (maybe a bosnian speaker who was raised in Montenegro, speaking in croation dialect trying to sound like an serbian officer who was trained in Slovenia) if this discussion is "only" about the lack of the voice over...

But it's not only Yugoslavia, so... here are even people in the forum wining that there is no individuell voice over for every english speaking minor/major/country/city ...

If you want a voice over - do it yourself in a mod !

Yugoslavia still seems to be a place to dangerous to discuss anything about...

It's sad, but looks like there idea to not implement it was the right one..

PS: don't get me wrong, I would be pissed myself if all german voice over was in bavarian or saxon instead of "high german", (cool would be if each "command" could be in 3-4 different versions - this would also solve your problems guys.. but it isn't...) ... so I understand the basic (especially after the bloody civil war few years ago and the "problems" there are till now.. so the best aspect is to not do a vioce over for the "problematic regions"
 

faljen_isus

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True, but that is from a post-1990's point of view where one's religion was closely tied to one's nationality. But when stating their official historical record of the time, that was the statistic. You really won't find a Serb named Eugen or a Croat named Nemanja :D



1. So where is that different Croatian language you speak of? From the transcripts of Parliament discussions I have, pretty much the same thing Croatian and Serbian at the time.
2. Pavelic would have organized it either way, but that is not the point. The discussion was on how Crusing Ustaše movement in Italy means that Croats stop pushing for Banovina. If anything, Crushing Ustaše focus (that were for a complete dissolution of Yugoslavia) should give more power and influence to HSS that wanted Banovina.
3. You were talking about Black Hand influence in the government and that nationalism of the Serbian government actually fueled the Black Hand - and I state that is not true. Yes, the officers initiated a coup in 1903 but it had nothing to do with nationalism. And the king that came after the coup actually arrested and killed the members of the Black Hand. You are implying a connection between a Black Hand and the Government, yet it is quite the contrary. The organization that was tied to the Government was the White Hand - the Black Hand was everything but. Influential? Yes, in some Army circles in between 1903 and 1916. Ties with the government? No.
4. Yes, speaking from a current viewpoint, you'd be right. But at the time, after hours of insulting the dead soldiers, refusing to apologize and the unwillingness of the President of the Parliament to sanction Pernar, it was expected. Especially because he actually said that he will do it if provocations don't stop - Pernar was warned and he continued. One's honor was valued back in the day - just because today people can insult one another in the worst way possible does not mean that back in the day it was tolerated. People went to duels to the death even for a much smaller personal insult, let alone an insult like this. Back in day, you had to choose your words carefully.
5. Really? Are we going down this route? -.-

Yeah, as a matter of fact, back in the day insulting someone meant that you have to defend your words and honor - be you a nationalist, socialist, liberal or what ever. People were killed for less - it was a matter of principle and honor. Just because today it is unimaginable for us (today it is OK for someone to insult your whole family, country, nation, religion and what not - but if you punch him in the face you are the bad guy) it does not mean that 100 years ago people were willing to just go over grave insults like that. Do I think it was OK? No, why would I? But I am aware of the time in history when it did happen and when one's pride and honor were of utmost importance. Killing someone on the basis of an insult was actually still legal in Europe until late 19th and early 20th century. Dueling was even an Olympic sport in early 20th century, luckily without death as a result. Sure, this was not a duel - yet Pernar was warned several times and asked to take back his words. He didn't, he continued to insult. That had a price at the time. In Germany until 1937 if someone insulted you, you had the right to blow his brains out - Nazis actually regulated that a lot to prevent the duels as much as possible.

I am not justifying it from our point of view, I am giving a historical context. Just because I can have a verbal sexual intercourse with your entire family, dead relatives and insult your whole nation and you don''t have the right to even touch me, does not mean that back in the day people were not killed for much less.

1. as i mentioned and elaborated in an earlier post, the languages did converge after the reforms by Ljudevit Gaj in Croatia (began in 1830 where Gaj decided to standardize the stokavstina dialect that was in that time the least spoken dialect withing the kingdom, but in turn understood by all) and after the serbian reforms started by Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (in 1850, after the Wienna literary agreement that was propagated by the croatian illyrist movement under the idea of creating a new language base to strengthen the idea of a larger state that would later enable Croatia to become independent or get a huge level of autonomy within the empire), before that if you took an average serb and an average croat it would be as if a slovene were to speak to a bulgarian today - it is a slavic language but its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Today serbian and croatian are, as a result of the last 150 years of convergence extremely close, but they were not that in the past, and the convergence did not occur naturaly, which makes the very language an unnatural esperanto-like product

2. he would not have organized anything because the growing power of the HSS would make his movement and party either obsolete or the ideology would have drowned in the mass support gained by the HSS (HSS had more or less paramilitary formations during the Banovina that were pretty close to an actual army within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia that you can get)

3. the Black Hand organized the assassination to remove the threat of a Trialist monarchy, which also meant the appeasement of the slavic nations under the crown, that would disable serbian territorial aspirations to the east according to the Nacertanije by Garasanin in 1844., so even if you are correct in stating that the coup wasnt a nationalistic act, the assassination of 1914. was, thus making the Black Hand a nationalist organisation

4. i agree that insults should be dealt with, but dealt with accordingly. attempted murder in a royal parliament is not understandable in any century and is more insulting than the very insult that was done in the first place. but, again to note, i agree with you that insults are not a way to go

5. if you were to provide me with any evidence that the serbian part of the monarchy was experiencing any kind or number of problems, issues or anything in that manner i will gladly listen (read) and amend my opinion accordingly
 

Vukodav

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You're arguing semantics now. It doesn't matter if we call them Ustase or Radical Movement # 25312. It's a simple choice that works well withing game's framework: establish autocratic control and deal with a radical movement OR promote autonomous rule to an extent and cut the support for the radical movement.

Yeah, because who the hell cares about historical accuracy? Let us call Nazi Party the Rainbow Unicorn Party, because that is just semantics - as long as it works it should not matter how it is called.

1. as i mentioned and elaborated in an earlier post, the languages did converge after the reforms by Ljudevit Gaj in Croatia (began in 1830 where Gaj decided to standardize the stokavstina dialect that was in that time the least spoken dialect withing the kingdom, but in turn understood by all) and after the serbian reforms started by Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (in 1850, after the Wienna literary agreement that was propagated by the croatian illyrist movement under the idea of creating a new language base to strengthen the idea of a larger state that would later enable Croatia to become independent or get a huge level of autonomy within the empire), before that if you took an average serb and an average croat it would be as if a slovene were to speak to a bulgarian today - it is a slavic language but its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Today serbian and croatian are, as a result of the last 150 years of convergence extremely close, but they were not that in the past, and the convergence did not occur naturaly, which makes the very language an unnatural esperanto-like product

2. he would not have organized anything because the growing power of the HSS would make his movement and party either obsolete or the ideology would have drowned in the mass support gained by the HSS (HSS had more or less paramilitary formations during the Banovina that were pretty close to an actual army within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia that you can get)

3. the Black Hand organized the assassination to remove the threat of a Trialist monarchy, which also meant the appeasement of the slavic nations under the crown, that would disable serbian territorial aspirations to the east according to the Nacertanije by Garasanin in 1844., so even if you are correct in stating that the coup wasnt a nationalistic act, the assassination of 1914. was, thus making the Black Hand a nationalist organisation

4. i agree that insults should be dealt with, but dealt with accordingly. attempted murder in a royal parliament is not understandable in any century and is more insulting than the very insult that was done in the first place. but, again to note, i agree with you that insults are not a way to go

5. if you were to provide me with any evidence that the serbian part of the monarchy was experiencing any kind or number of problems, issues or anything in that manner i will gladly listen (read) and amend my opinion accordingly

1. You really ought to learn a difference between a language and a dialect. This was not meant as patronizing but you cannot make an equivalence between one of the dialects that was a bit different than Serbian and the Croatian language in general. That is like saying that the Serbian language from Pirot area is not Serbian and base your argument on differences between them. Language is one thing, dialect another. Serbian and Croatian have always been the same with individuals dialects being different between each other, sometimes even more within the same language. For instance, a man from Belgrade will have no problem understanding someone from Split, but I hardly doubt that he would understand a word a person from Pirot says - even though it is the same language.

2. You just enter a logical fallacy loop here. He did organize it, and HSS did gain massive support - but it did not make his movement or ideology obsolete or drowned. Creation of Ustaše had nothing to do with anything else - it was an idea started long before.

3. Yeah, because some captains and majors in the Serbian army had the blueprints for the ideas of the Archduke so they decided to stop him... right. And I don't know where the hell you got the idea that reorganization of the empire would appease the Slavs - quite the contrary, it would provide them with a platform and political power for secession. Just like Croats were not actually appeased by Banovina in 1939 - they wanted independence. But I don't know, maybe Croats would indeed be appeased in reorganized Austria-Hungary, all other Slavs had a bit different idea.

And this is not a discussion if the Black Hand itself was nationalistic - you accused the Serbian government of, and I quote "that same radicalism by the serbian government led by the Black Hand". When was the Serbian government led by a Black Hand?! Never - it was a secret military organization that actually got destroyed by the same government you are accusing.

Also, maybe worth noting, Hungary was strongly opposed to the reorganization of the kingdom as Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia were under the Hungarian crown so any attempt would likely result in a war that would be highly beneficial to the Serbian nationalist circles - they would just scoop up the territory after the civil war in the A-U empire with little to no bloodshed. So it was all contrary to your claims. And before you say "there would be no war" I might point out that at every radical change in the organization of A-U, there was one. Plus, war or not, decentralization and reorganization would weaken and hasten the collapse of the empire that was already rotten to the core.

4. You would be surprised how many assassinations happened in parliaments and other similar government buildings. Because it is not just the punishment, it is also a message.

5. Problems? No problems, Serbs lived like kings. Not that Slovenia had 6 times more developed industry and industrial income per capita than Serbia, and Croatia double in 1938. Not that during the history of the kingdom 1918-1938 there were 2.193 factories constructed, of those 403 in Slovenia, 732 in Croatia (Slavnonia and Dalmatia included) and only 428 in Serbia that was actually the most devastated region after the Great War. Source: Ekonomska struktura Jugoslavije 1918-1941, Nakladni zavod Hrvatske, page 17.

Right after the war, in 1919, Serbia had some 70 factories, while Croatia and Slovenia were left with with 960. So more to start with and more constructed during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Croatian banks were the strongest in the kingdom, Croatia had access to the biggest ports and the sea for tourism and trade and had the best infrastructure network.

No problems really, just for some unknown reason most of the money and reparation funds went to Slovenia and Croatia while Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia were left piss poor. The Yugoslav government was so Serbo-centric that majority of the money and investments went to Croatia and Slovenia, that were already better off that the rest in the first place. But other than that, insults and subversive actions of liberated regions, national betrayal during the war, really, everything was just fine and dandy in Serbia. I don't know what was I thinking, sorry.

And if you really want to know, Serbian nationalists at the time actually did not want Yugoslavia at all. Generals from the Great War urged the king to give Split and everything north of it to Italians and be done with it, less headache - and after all, Croats and Slovenes were on the loosing side in the war. So Yugoslavia (both of 'em) was everything except some fruit of a Serbian nationalist dream - on the contrary, it was a nightmare, they hated the very idea of it. So that is why it is very funny, and a bit ironic, when some Serbian nationalism is mentioned in the same context as Yugoslavia. But hey, nationalists didn't actually have a say so we got what we got, a Frankenstein country that no one actually wanted except the king (a guy that no one actually loved and who framed and put the legitimate king in the nuthouse) and the Allies that wanted a strong buffer state. I really don't like nationalists, especially Serbian ones, yet even I am not willing to trump historical facts just on the basis of some personal preferences.

EDIT: Also, this discussion has gone long enough already, let us not spam anymore. If you want to continue conversation, we can use private message and exchange documents and information if you want. Cheers! ;)
 
Last edited:

Fryslan0109

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Hehe, I've been reading this thread and thinking "This is how wars are started".

"I cannot tell you when the flame war will occur, but I can tell you where … Some damned foolish thread on the Balkans will set it off." -Otto von Bismarck, probably
 

Nicolas-

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Yugoslavia... a country that no one plays and has 1% chance of surviving past 1937 and even if it did it would end the game.

I just don't understand what's wrong with Paradox. It's been one year now, and I've seen no promising updates.
 
Last edited:

Qatlas

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And if you really want to know, Serbian nationalists at the time actually did not want Yugoslavia at all. Generals from the Great War urged the king to give Split and everything north of it to Italians and be done with it, less headache

No they didn't want Yugoslavia at all, they want Great Serbia, and they got much much more, and they were not satisfied.
Poor Serbs now had to worry about hegemony:D
 

Delta041

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Hi there.

I am very excited to see this new development for Yugoslavia. In your last stream with mr. D. :) you have mentioned that you cant get accurate sound for units, because you do not know what language we spoke in Yugoslavia back then. As far as I can tell in Titos Yugoslavia Serbo-Croatian language was the staple. Although Slovenian was also excepted. Since Yugoslavia was devided internaly and Titos iron fist along with Brotherhood and unity was the epoxy glue that held our former nation together, you could make random sounds from Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia and it would be perfectly ok. In my opinion. :) May be I can help with this :) Keep up the good work!
 

Gort11

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Yugoslavia... a country that no one plays and has 1% chance of surviving past 1937 and even if it did it would end the game.

I just don't understand what's wrong with Paradox. It's been one year now, and I've seen no promising updates.

I'm definitely interested in playing Yugoslavia. I only haven't played them so far because they have no focus tree.

Likewise Czechoslovakia.
 

Solaxe

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Yugoslavia... a country that no one plays and has 1% chance of surviving past 1937 and even if it did it would end the game.

I just don't understand what's wrong with Paradox. It's been one year now, and I've seen no promising updates.

Not everyone finds playing Germany 24/7 entertaining
 

Delta041

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I'm definitely interested in playing Yugoslavia. I only haven't played them so far because they have no focus tree.

Likewise Czechoslovakia.


Yes. Yugoslavia is challenging to play even today. But I was able to defeat the Germans and Italians 2x if I prepared correctly. Playing Germany is funn but playing underdog countries for me is better and more challenging.
 

Ksyr

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Yugoslavia... a country that no one plays and has 1% chance of surviving past 1937 and even if it did it would end the game.

I just don't understand what's wrong with Paradox. It's been one year now, and I've seen no promising updates.
Why wouldn't it survive past 1937? In a majority of my games it survives longer than Poland, Denmark, Norway and France. And Benelux.
 

Adamgerd

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Yugoslavia... a country that no one plays and has 1% chance of surviving past 1937 and even if it did it would end the game.

I just don't understand what's wrong with Paradox. It's been one year now, and I've seen no promising updates.
Not everyone enjoys just keep playing Germany over and over. Also, 1937? I've never seen them annexed by Germany. And if you don't like the dlc, you don't have to buy it. Some people enjoy sandbox more so than playing historical WW2 over and over
 

Adamgerd

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I'm definitely interested in playing Yugoslavia. I only haven't played them so far because they have no focus tree.

Likewise Czechoslovakia.
Yeah, I do want to play Yugoslavia, but I didn't really find a balanced mod with a focus tree. Czechoslovakia at least actually has a balanced focus tree as a mod
 

virre

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Lets make something clear.
This patch has done nothing new mechanics wise for the air warfare. This has added nothing but ui fixes, while great and needed, is not the big air warfare update atleast I was hoping for.

Planes still teleport to airzones and apparently you cant intercept them while the fly over the entire english chanel. Sorry guys, we cant shoot down those 10,000 bombers going for the capital, they arent in our airzone.
The air warfare game will still be just mass produce planes and whoever has the most wins. Looking forward to the 100k plane grind.
Still no air supply, although it isnt really needed considering you can invade sovijet union during high winter with 100% attrition and it doesnt matter at all.

Nothing at all will change. Just take stacks of afew 1000 planes, put them over a air zone and come back in afew months/years.

Where is the new mechanics? or have I missed something ?