HOI4 Dev Diary - Yugoslavia and Air Zones

[Vukodav]

You are aware that "Religious Freedom" means people have the choice to adopt other religions freely like say Islam or Buddhism?

Was allowing the practice of Islam or Buddhism really part of Yugoslavian Traditional values?

Yes. Yugoslavia was quite mixed when it came to religion. There was 48.7% of Orthodox, 37.5% of Roman Catholic and 11.2% of Muslims. The rest goes on other religious groups. Anyone could adopt any religion they wanted, religious freedom was guaranteed. The very idea of Yugoslavia had religious freedoms as an integral part. So "Traditional values" and "Religious freedom" here goes hand in hand.

Although, not many Buddhists in Yugoslavia at the time, which is understandable I guess.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Yes. Yugoslavia was quite mixed when it came to religion. There was 48.7% of Orthodox, 37.5% of Roman Catholic and 11.2% of Muslims. The rest goes on other religious groups. Anyone could adopt any religion they wanted, religious freedom was guaranteed.

I still don't think the Orthodox or Roman Catholics majorities would agree with you that for example Islam was part of Yugoslavia's "Traditional Values", but that's just based on my experience elsewhere. I don't claim to be an expert on Yugoslavia's religious history.

 

[c01mhth10ch]

As far as I know, there is culture of extreme political corretness in Sweden and for devs to see arguing like this only makes it impossible to ever have more details and hisctorical accuracy for balkan region. Even in the obvious things (like using Serbian as voicover language for Yugoslavian troops) there is always someone who wants to explanain to devs some balkan history and you can't talk about that without friction and derailment. People are being often tought complete opposite version of truth in school and will argue till the end of time...

Best of all is that devs and most of the people who are not familiar with intricaties of balkan relations are not that much interested. All those history leassions are pure flame fuel.

Bottom line: If Developers ever decide to give Yugoslavian troops voiceovers they should use Serbian language and be done with it. If anyone whines it's as relevant as whining about lack of female voices or lack of Welsh voiceovers for Brittish units, meaining: some argument could be made for it but because of the tehnical restraints it's not reasonable to expect it.

 

[Duke_Dave]

Hehe, I've been reading this thread and thinking "This is how wars are started".

This game attracts a lot of smart people but also people with nationalist tendencies. In my opinion this discussion was heated but civilised. We all have our conception s about history, and we would like to see them implemented in the game. Also a lot of people have fields of interest where they read a lot, or even do research academic and hobby wise, and we all would like to see our personal field of interest implemented in the game.

 

[Vukodav]

I still don't think the Orthodox or Roman Catholics majorities would agree with you that for example Islam was part of Yugoslavia's "Traditional Values", but that's just based on my experience elsewhere. I don't claim to be an expert on Yugoslavia's religious history.

I am, so that is why I am giving you the information needed. Islam was an integral part of South Slavs for centuries, since the Ottoman occupation in 15th century. Actually, in most cases, in a single family there would a brother Christian and the other a Muslim - that was a way of guaranteeing the safety of one's family no matter who won. One of the most loved ministers in Yugoslavia in the kingdom, Mehmed Meho Spahić, was a Muslim and a leader of the Yugoslav Muslim Organization that was in power in Yugoslavia (JRZ was a coalition government of Serbian Radicals, Yugoslav Muslim Organization and Slovene People's Party).

In the Kingdom of Yugoslavia there were no really religious problems as much as ethnic ones. Only later in the 1980's and 1990's one's religion became tied exclusively with one's ethnicity. But in 1930's no one really cared what religion you were a part of. Islam was on equal grounds with all the others. Religious freedoms were guaranteed in the Constitution and were practiced in real life - Muslims were an integral part of public life of Yugoslavia.

The only religious problems in Yugoslavia were in 1937 with Concordat that sought to give more rights on Catholic church and expand the influence of Vatican to Yugoslavia. Both Muslims and Orthodox Christians protested as in Yugoslavia there could be no privileged religious group. But as far as traditional values are concerned, religious freedom was a part of it. Today, Muslims in the Balkans are some of the last guardians of traditional family values.

Don't project the 1990's into 1930's. While there are some common points, it is not the same thing.

Bottom line: If Developers ever decide to give Yugoslavian troops voiceovers they should use Serbian language and be done with it. If anyone whines it's as relevant as whining about lack of female voices or lack of Welsh voiceovers for Brittish units, meaining: some argument could be made for it but because of the tehnical restraints it's not reasonable to expect it.

Well, in the game you don't actually have "This is voiced in Serbian" or any such notification. But the fact is that "Razumem!" (meaning "I understand!") or any other thing that a soldier would say in the game ("Attack", "We are moving" and so on) is exactly the same in Serbian and Croatian so even people living here would not notice the difference. Call it Serbian, call it Croat, call it Serbo-Croat or Yugoslav language, it does not really matter. At least for those commands in the game, you cannot notice a difference. That is why we all find it surprising that they did not do it.

Have they done it without mentioning what language it actually is, no one would even notice as in these commands at least it is one and the same. So in reality, by not doing it they actually created discussion out of nothing - by wanting to avoid discussion. Paradox... oh, wait!

 

[c01mhth10ch]

Well, in the game you don't actually have "This is voiced in Serbian" or any such notification. But the fact is that "Razumem!" (meaning "I understand!") or any other thing that a soldier would say in the game ("Attack", "We are moving" and so on) is exactly the same in Serbian and Croatian so even people living here would not notice the difference. Call it Serbian, call it Croat, call it Serbo-Croat or Yugoslav language, it does not really matter. At least for those commands in the game, you cannot notice a difference. That is why we all find it surprising that they did not do it.

I agree. But for someone to make voicover into a game he needs to know what language does he needs translations for and voice actors. So I was just saying out of all present day languages if you used Serbian it would be most appropriate. I don't think average game developer in Sweden knows how much difference there is (or to say there isn't) between Serbian, Croatian, Sloveninan etc. I guess that is exactly what coused all the confusion, many language names mentioned but in reallty it's pretty much one language with lots of variations. Plus Slovenian and Macedonian. those are different

 

[Adri2]

Personal talk about the Voiceover :

Its kinda sad,that the yugoslavian troops don´t get a voiceover.
But just for information sake,as an austrian history student with balcan heritage ,it´s kinda obvious that for former yugoslavia you should just do serbo-croatian language and that´s it.
If u have to choose between Serbian and Croatian,then it´s Serbian,because in the End Yugoslavia was more influenced by Serbia and their High Command.(Serbian Royal Dynasty,most Officers Serbian etc.)
In the End it doesn´t matter.
This are all Variants and Dialects of the same languagefamily ( pluricentric language like the different kinds of german -> german in Brd, german in austria, german in belgium,german in luxemburg)
In Linguistics at most austrian and german universities the serbo-croatian languagefamily is taught as B/K/S (Bosnian,C(K)roatian,Serbian) to be fair to all Variants. And when u are able to speak one of them,u understand and are able to speak the other two.
Every Nationality in Yugoslavia has a special Status and has a different view on this topic.
But from a linguistic and historic perception there were only two offical languages in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia:

Serbo-Croatian and Slovene.
The Slovenes had alway a special role in Yugoslavia and were always a lil bit different.

But to be honest ,as a player i don´t care about the voice over and for me it doesn´t matter, as thus small sentences should be extremly similiar (if you take serbo-croatian,serbian or croatian)

Playertalk about the National Focus :

It looks kinda interesting,especially with the time pressure,the gameplays could be really fun.
I will have to look at this Focus more closely when DoD is released.
But it´s a lil bit disappointing that you didn´t included a lil bit more for the communist path or some alliance shifting.

Sure this is a WW2 Game and not a Cold War game,but at least some things could be integrated.
For example a buff for partisans so as an enemy you need more Military Police to hold down your territories.
Or you could make the split of the country kinda like romanias national focus with the alliance shifting.
If Yugoslavia stays royal during the war they stay in the Allies,when they get communist over the path of the time they turn to Comintern (and maybe then another focus where they can leave comintern because of Tito-Stalin-Split and get semi-good trade relations with everyone).
This could be fun and interesting. Just saying..
At the moment i dont see why i should follow the communist path as a player except for the love of roleplay.

Now after writing in this thread, i want to play this DLC!Please tell us when we can get it.

Greetings,Adri2

 

[Vukodav]

most Officers Serbian etc.

Sorry, I hope you won't take it the wrong way but I'll just add it here in case someone is interested.

In 1941 the situation was the following:

Out of 24 High Command departments, only one was in the hands of a Serbian officer. The rest were in Croatian command or ex-Autria-Hungary officers.
Out of 6 Military Districts, only in one was the commander a Serbian officer (Mirko Bogićević). Two were Croats (Romuald Manola i Eugen Kurelec) and three were Slovenes (Branko Tominšek, Danilo Tranpuš i Ignjac Furlan).
Out of 4 Air Brigades, in two commanders were Croats.
Out of 8 Air Regiments (that were organized into before mentioned Air Brigades), 6 commanders were Slovenes and Croats, only two Serbs.
Out of 6 Engineering battalions, in all 6 the commanding officers were Croats.

And this pretty much continued in all the other segments of the military. So actually majority of the army was not under the command of Serbian officers at all. Again, not something really important or something I am willing to make an argument about - I just saw historical inaccuracy and wanted to notify you. Cheers!

 

[Adri2]

Sorry, I hope you won't take it the wrong way but I'll just add it here in case someone is interested.

In 1941 the situation was the following:

Out of 24 High Command departments, only one was in the hands of a Serbian officer. The rest were in Croatian command or ex-Autria-Hungary officers.
Out of 6 Military Districts, only in one was the commander a Serbian officer (Mirko Bogićević). Two were Croats (Romuald Manola i Eugen Kurelec) and three were Slovenes (Branko Tominšek, Danilo Tranpuš i Ignjac Furlan).
Out of 4 Air Brigades, in two commanders were Croats.
Out of 8 Air Regiments (that were organized into before mentioned Air Brigades), 6 commanders were Slovenes and Croats, only two Serbs.
Out of 6 Engineering battalions, in all 6 the commanding officers were Croats.

And this pretty much continued in all the other segments of the military. So actually majority of the army was not under the command of Serbian officers at all. Again, not something really important or something I am willing to make an argument about - I just saw historical inaccuracy and wanted to notify you. Cheers!

In General true and i support your correction of me.
Just wanted to say it´s sometimes a lil bit difficult with this facts. For example i saw some other sources where they overestimate the croatian part of the army or on the other side the serbian part.
For example there is a trick in this statistics that some people make an orhtodox croatian into a serbian or a catholic serbian into a croatian and just say he´s now ours.
And then it´s just about debate and screaming louder.
But yeah in 1941 you are right sorry for misinformation

 

[faljen_isus]

OK, history time!

First of all, Kingdom of SHS was a problematic democracy until 1929, not 1921. In 1920-1921 the communist party got banned after the election victory in some parts of the kingdom.

So that "shit" actually happened in 1928 and was a result of several hours of national humiliation in the National Assembly. It started with humiliation of the dead soldiers who fought for national liberation 1912-1918 by Pavle Radić who said, and I quote, "How much for your Serbian blood? How much for Kajmakčalan? Let us pay and be done with it!". It would be like someone from Brittany asking in the French parliament "How much for your French blood? How much for Verdun? Let us pay and be done with it!". And after several hours of insults Ivan Pernar shouted to Račić "You stole from the begs!". Then Račić asked for the removal of Pernar from the assembly because he would not stop insulting everyone, shouting without the permit to speak - and threatened that if the President of the Assembly does not punish him, he will, and who ever comes in between them is going to die. President declared a pause, did not remove Croatian provocateurs and after 5 minutes Pernar came to Radić and said "Say how much blood have you spilled so we can pay you with gold". Then Račić went berserk "Take that back! Take that back!" to what Pernar just smiled and walked away. And that is when the hell broke loose.

You cannot insult the dead heroes for hours, the ones you actually fought against, and then suffer no consequences. Imagine that someone in Russian parliament asks how much to pay for Russian blood in the Second World War and take out his wallet. Imagine if someone starts insulting the people that died in USA revolution or any other defining war of one's nation. Anyone with a shred of decency and honor cannot let that go unanswered. Nationalism or not. And what was worse was the fact that Croats, who fought for Austria-Hungary, insulted the dead Serbs that fought for the Allies and actually liberated the region of Yugoslavia from Austria-Hungary.

Further, that assassination ended up with a dissolution of the Parliament in 1929, banning of ALL political parties, not just a Croatian one, and the dictatorship of the King Aleksandar I that lasted until 1931 when parties were once again allowed. Ustaše had nothing to do with the mentioned Croatian parties. They were a fringe fascist terrorist movement that hid in Italy.

And in the end, saying that the Black Hand was the result of the nationalism of the Serbian government is very, very wrong. It was a clique of officers that usually worked for their own self-interest and had no governmental connection what so ever. The officers from that organization were put on trial afterwards by that same government. There was the White Hand led by general Petar Živković, they were very influential in political life. But Black Hand? Not bloody likely.



The things with Croats would make sense if Ustaše had any actual influence in Croatia prior to 1941. They didn't, they were a terrorist organization that was situated in Italy. HSS was the main representative of the Croatian people and had the influence you are talking about.

As for Yugoslavia not having much of an impact... I know it is not a common knowledge unfortunately but Yugoslavia supplied 40% of German led during the war, as well as chromium, bauxite and copper (Yugoslavia had the biggest copper mine in Europe at the time, was second in chromium only to Turkey and so on) and during the war hundreds of thousands of German soldiers had to be stationed in Yugoslavia to fight the partisans (who were blowing up the supply lines for Africa Corps as well) that negated their use on the Eastern Front.

So quite a big influence.

1. the serbo-croatian language you speak of was in truth serbian, it may or may not have been under a different label, but it was serbian, no need to escape that truth
2. pavelic who formed the ustashe was a high ranking Party of Rights official and the kings banning of the parties led directly to the party being dissolved thus their emigration to italy and forming the ustashe radical movement (again - cause and effect); the HSS did not break apart like the SP, and as you stated the HSS was the only relevant political power in Croatia what was shown later when the Kingdom was invaded that the germans offered Macek the right of rule. After him declining they brought in the Ustashe.
3. The Black Hand was not a public organization, therefore its public influence is not relevant to the conversation, it was a group of Intelligence officers led by Dragutin Dimitrijevic, known as Apis, who did the coup that removed the Obrenovic from power - therefore his influence is undeniable (be it public or not)
4. to make fun of victims is never fun, but politicians have to exhibit restraint, and no matter the amount of insults you get you do NOT shoot at people during discussions in Parliament
5. the banning of all parties part you state is true, but it only had actual remifications in croatia, as the king acted in the serbian political interest (whether completely what the parties would have wanted or not is not relevant)

Hehe, I've been reading this thread and thinking "This is how wars are started".

especially in the balkans, people here go to war for less

 

[Qatlas]

You cannot insult the dead heroes for hours, the ones you actually fought against, and then suffer no consequences. Imagine that someone in Russian parliament asks how much to pay for Russian blood in the Second World War and take out his wallet. Imagine if someone starts insulting the people that died in USA revolution or any other defining war of one's nation. Anyone with a shred of decency and honor cannot let that go unanswered. Nationalism or not. And what was worse was the fact that Croats, who fought for Austria-Hungary, insulted the dead Serbs that fought for the Allies and actually liberated the region of Yugoslavia from Austria-Hungary.

I can not believe you have assumed such an attitude that someone else has the right to kill for someone else's insult.

 

[Adamgerd]

Yes, thank you. No more 5. infantry Type 3 or 4. Infantry type 4. Also, finally Hungary and Romania don't share the air zone full. That always annoyed me.

 

[Vukodav]

For example there is a trick in this statistics that some people make an orhtodox croatian into a serbian or a catholic serbian into a croatian and just say he´s now ours.

True, but that is from a post-1990's point of view where one's religion was closely tied to one's nationality. But when stating their official historical record of the time, that was the statistic. You really won't find a Serb named Eugen or a Croat named Nemanja

1. the serbo-croatian language you speak of was in truth serbian, it may or may not have been under a different label, but it was serbian, no need to escape that truth
2. pavelic who formed the ustashe was a high ranking Party of Rights official and the kings banning of the parties led directly to the party being dissolved thus their emigration to italy and forming the ustashe radical movement (again - cause and effect); the HSS did not break apart like the SP, and as you stated the HSS was the only relevant political power in Croatia what was shown later when the Kingdom was invaded that the germans offered Macek the right of rule. After him declining they brought in the Ustashe.
3. The Black Hand was not a public organization, therefore its public influence is not relevant to the conversation, it was a group of Intelligence officers led by Dragutin Dimitrijevic, known as Apis, who did the coup that removed the Obrenovic from power - therefore his influence is undeniable (be it public or not)
4. to make fun of victims is never fun, but politicians have to exhibit restraint, and no matter the amount of insults you get you do NOT shoot at people during discussions in Parliament
5. the banning of all parties part you state is true, but it only had actual remifications in croatia, as the king acted in the serbian political interest (whether completely what the parties would have wanted or not is not relevant)

1. So where is that different Croatian language you speak of? From the transcripts of Parliament discussions I have, pretty much the same thing Croatian and Serbian at the time.
2. Pavelic would have organized it either way, but that is not the point. The discussion was on how Crusing Ustaše movement in Italy means that Croats stop pushing for Banovina. If anything, Crushing Ustaše focus (that were for a complete dissolution of Yugoslavia) should give more power and influence to HSS that wanted Banovina.
3. You were talking about Black Hand influence in the government and that nationalism of the Serbian government actually fueled the Black Hand - and I state that is not true. Yes, the officers initiated a coup in 1903 but it had nothing to do with nationalism. And the king that came after the coup actually arrested and killed the members of the Black Hand. You are implying a connection between a Black Hand and the Government, yet it is quite the contrary. The organization that was tied to the Government was the White Hand - the Black Hand was everything but. Influential? Yes, in some Army circles in between 1903 and 1916. Ties with the government? No.
4. Yes, speaking from a current viewpoint, you'd be right. But at the time, after hours of insulting the dead soldiers, refusing to apologize and the unwillingness of the President of the Parliament to sanction Pernar, it was expected. Especially because he actually said that he will do it if provocations don't stop - Pernar was warned and he continued. One's honor was valued back in the day - just because today people can insult one another in the worst way possible does not mean that back in the day it was tolerated. People went to duels to the death even for a much smaller personal insult, let alone an insult like this. Back in day, you had to choose your words carefully.
5. Really? Are we going down this route? -.-

I can not believe you have assumed such an attitude that someone else has the right to kill for someone else's insult.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, back in the day insulting someone meant that you have to defend your words and honor - be you a nationalist, socialist, liberal or what ever. People were killed for less - it was a matter of principle and honor. Just because today it is unimaginable for us (today it is OK for someone to insult your whole family, country, nation, religion and what not - but if you punch him in the face you are the bad guy) it does not mean that 100 years ago people were willing to just go over grave insults like that. Do I think it was OK? No, why would I? But I am aware of the time in history when it did happen and when one's pride and honor were of utmost importance. Killing someone on the basis of an insult was actually still legal in Europe until late 19th and early 20th century. Dueling was even an Olympic sport in early 20th century, luckily without death as a result. Sure, this was not a duel - yet Pernar was warned several times and asked to take back his words. He didn't, he continued to insult. That had a price at the time. In Germany until 1937 if someone insulted you, you had the right to blow his brains out - Nazis actually regulated that a lot to prevent the duels as much as possible.

I am not justifying it from our point of view, I am giving a historical context. Just because I can have a verbal sexual intercourse with your entire family, dead relatives and insult your whole nation and you don''t have the right to even touch me, does not mean that back in the day people were not killed for much less.

 

[Adamgerd]

Not a single country on that slide has been given attention in the dlc so far. So, unless I'm mistaken, Paradox has used their resources on countries that no one plays. Perhaps this is deliberate to encourage people to play them more but that still seems foolish to me.

Hopefully China and Japan will be getting worked on next since nearly 15% of the games are played with those countries. Hopefully it won't be another dlc focused on other countries that were annexed before the war even started or held out for a couple weeks. But at this rate it'll probably be a Denmark/Netherlands focused dlc and people will demand unique tank sprites for the mighty Danish army.

its 40% among majors with trees etc. Overall popularity is 24%. screenie from my presentation at pdxcon:

Just wondering, where is this from? Also why do people want focus trees for majors? Or am I missing something here? Also people play PRC?

 

[Adamgerd]

I've only played an incomplete Germany game, but I have played Sweden, India, France, Australia, Poland, Finland, USA, Mexico, Italy, both Spains, and South Africa.

I've been avoiding China, Turkey and Romania in the hopes of getting focus trees. I've been avoiding the Soviets because I prefer Ironman and the Soviets are basically a big win button against the AI. I've been avoiding Japan and Britain because naval combat and messing with all the ships seems really tedious right now (in addition to losing as the UK being basically impossible against the AI). Island hopping has always been a boring part of HOI for me.

You played Nationalist Spain? You won the Spanish civil war with nationalist spain? Huh, I just played 2-3 Germany (never won), 2 France (won), 1 Canada (never finished), 1 Poland and about 20-30 games of czechoslovakia going fascist, communist and democratically in different ways.

 

[Reinner]

Regarding voice overs for Yugoslavia not having them is pretty lame excuse, that means Czechoslovakia should also not have them because the nation had two languages. Slovak and Czech languages are close and mutually understandable, but still different just like languages in Yugoslavia were.

 

[Adamgerd]

Not a single country on that slide has been given attention in the dlc so far. So, unless I'm mistaken, Paradox has used their resources on countries that no one plays. Perhaps this is deliberate to encourage people to play them more but that still seems foolish to me.

Hopefully China and Japan will be getting worked on next since nearly 15% of the games are played with those countries. Hopefully it won't be another dlc focused on other countries that were annexed before the war even started or held out for a couple weeks. But at this rate it'll probably be a Denmark/Netherlands focused dlc and people will demand unique tank sprites for the mighty Danish army.

I would say most don't play, not that no one plays/played those nations. Also, WW2 start depends on your location. In china, the government says it started in 1931

 

[Adamgerd]

Regarding voice overs for Yugoslavia not having them is pretty lame excuse, that means Czechoslovakia should also not have them because the nation had two languages. Slovak and Czech languages are close and mutually understandable, but still different just like languages in Yugoslavia were.

However, I would say czech and Slovakian are closer than serb and Croatian

 

[Reinner]

However, I would say czech and Slovakian are closer than serb and Croatian

I can't speak for Czech and Slovak, but i can tell you for a fact that comparing Serbian to Croatian is like if you would compare English (British) to American English.
In other words if you can speak Serbian you will understand pretty much everything in Croatia and vice/versa.

 

[SBolshevik]

While more Croats did once speak non-Štokavian dialects (read: those further away from Serbian), I really do doubt that those would even marginally be important (despite Zagreb, for example, once being the bastion of actual Kajkavština, unlike today) within the army command, as even in the 19th century there was a united standard and a push for one language (for example: a Serb, Đuro Daničić, finished the Serbo-Croatian Latin alphabet, made initially by Ljudevit Gaj, a Croat).