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HoI4 Dev Diary - The Imperial Japanese Navy (AAR)

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary from the frozen wasteland that is Sweden in January. Today, we will have another short AAR of a naval warfare scenario, similar to the one we did earlier about raiding and submarine warfare.


This was played as an MP game between me and Niall (@Ceebie), with me defending the Empire of Japan’s honor against Niall’s filthy American imperialists.


Starting as Japan, I immediately face a number of issues that should sound very familiar: I have very limited resources, particularly in terms of oil. This is now a much bigger issue as I can still happily build ships and airplanes and tanks, but I won’t be able to run them for free. However, if I want to upgrade my ships (and knowing Niall, I absolutely do), I will need naval experience, and China is unlikely to provide me with a lot of it. So I need to run training missions for my fleet, which gobbles up fuel at a rapid pace (I could only take out my main fleet units for a few brief weeks before the fuel situation became critical).


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At the same time, while I could trade for more oil, it will cost civilian factories which I desperately need to build up my own industry or to trade for steel to continue my military buildup. I decided to keep the trading for oil to a minimum in order to more quickly build up my industry and increase the size of my fleet.


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My first target is, of course, China, and we start the war with them in the middle of 1937. It quickly becomes apparent that I underestimate the Chinese. Fighting rages hard along the border for several weeks, and a number of naval landings that attempt to force the AI to draw troops away from the main front are quickly contained by local garrisons, but at least not pushed back into the sea. Part of the problem is that the fleets tasked with invasion support contain some of my battleships, which eat up absurd amounts of fuel, and my attempts to turn the tide through prolific use of air support eat into my fuel supplies even more.


By early 1938, we are slowly grinding forward and have managed to inflict serious casualties on the Chinese, but my fuel stockpile has shrunken to just 30 days of current use. I curtail air support to only support my main thrust and send the naval forces providing shore bombardment back to port. Progress slows, but eventually we link up with the landing forces, at least saving me from an embarrassing early defeat. The massive amounts of Land XP also allow me to run through the doctrine tree quite a bit faster than Niall could ever hope to. Sadly the war in the Pacific will not be fought on land.


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It would take until early 1941 for the Chinese to fall, even though the writing is on the wall by the middle of 1940. I blame the poor infrastructure and awful terrain in China - my leadership is, after all, beyond any reasonable doubt.


In the meantime, Niall has been quietly modernizing his fleet and has started his rearmament. While a good amount of his effort is spent on helping out the British in Europe, I have no doubt that he has something in store for me. While I was deeply engaged in managing the war in China, I received some out-of-game intelligence (Niall bragging in the kitchen that his destroyer swarms would annihilate me) that makes me realize that my fleet lacks some key capabilities. The starting Japanese light cruisers are fairly mediocre, most have been built during the 20ies and are not up to the task of winning a firefight against the likes of a Brooklyn Class cruiser with no less than 3 light cruiser battery modules. What I do have is a lot of torpedoes, and I invest a little into researching upgraded torpedoes and better launchers. The Japanese Long Lance national spirit gives me another perk, as it negates the enemy screening to an extend, which means that my torpedoes can hit his capitals even through 100% screening.


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So while I was slowly grinding my way across China, I also decided on my buildup strategy:


  • No new battleships, since they eat up a lot of fuel and I have enough to cover my carriers. However, I did later decide to build at least one Yamato-class as an insurance against Niall developing modern battleships.

  • A force of 4 light carriers. Japan starts with two (Ryujo and returning fan favourite Hosho), with two Zuhio class building. While these only carry 40 planes each, they will be used to provide cover for operations in and around the Dutch East Indies.

  • A force of 4 fleet carriers, with another force of 4 joining later. Akagi and Kaga will be joined by 2 more Soryu class carriers and form the main strike force in the Central Pacific.

  • A heavy emphasis on air defense and torpedoes. After researching dual purpose main armaments, I design a new destroyer class with improved AA and better torpedo armament. These are joined by a quartet of light torpedo cruisers from the Japanese focus.

  • Lots and lots of Naval Bombers to damage the enemy during the approach and pick off stragglers. Once the battle is fought, his damaged ships would likely try and find a close naval base for repairs, so having naval bombers ready to attack them in port would let me finish them off.

  • Once I identified the fleet’s weakness in defense against destroyers, I also designed a version of the Mogami Class heavy cruisers dedicated to light gun support. I built another 4 of these.

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The fleet’s main objective, however, is to provide support for landings to seize resource rich areas in the Dutch East Indies. To protect the sea lanes to and from these islands, I will need to secure the Philippines, and that is where things get a little dicey.


While I have little doubt that my forces can take over Sumatra, Java and Borneo, Malaya might be a tough nut to crack, and I know that Niall has already started to fortify the Philippines. I have researched amphibious armor well in advance and with China now pacified, I start to turn up production in an attempt to give my marines a bit more punch and hopefully allow me to seize a foothold even against heavy opposition.

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Thinking ahead, I also research improved naval bombers and the next generation of carrier planes. Once my main objectives are secured, I will use swarms of naval bombers to hold them down while I move my fleets to stage two and take on Australia.


To give myself some more time to buildup, I delay my attack on the US until early 1942. This allows me to form a second strike force of two fleet carriers (Shokaku and Zuikaku, both repeat Soryus as I was unable to scrape together enough XP to design an upgraded carrier).


The first battles are very encouraging. Whenever my patrols find one of his scouting units, my strike fleets sortie and make short work of them, Niall’s vaunted Destroyer swarms being no match for my upgraded cruisers and destroyers. I am somewhat confident that I can attrit his screening forces faster than he can replace them, which would eventually force his fleet to remain in port or eat absurd numbers of torpedoes.

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Things quickly turn a little chaotic as my strike fleets and patrols intercept a number of troop convoys. While I first thought that these were going to the Philippines, they instead turn out to be trying to seize islands in the Central Pacific. Things don’t go well for him, as he has decided to keep his battleships and carriers on strike duty instead of covering his invasion convoys. Several divisions are effectively destroyed at sea, and the remains fail to gain any footholds.


At the same time, my invasions in the DEI, supported by the old battleships Ise and Hyuga, have run into stiff opposition while attempting to land in Borneo. I shift some tactical bombers into the theater to help break the stalemate, and we are starting to make progress. The two-pronged assault succeeds in establishing a foothold, but it is a reminder that Niall has not been idle and is ready to fight for every inch of ground in this vital area.

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While my marines still struggle to make landfall in the Philippines, a bigger drama unfolds in the Bismarck Sea. Niall has finally unleashed his main strike force, after one of his patrols found my carrier fleet.


The Battle of the Bismarck Sea does not go particularly well for the Imperial Navy. With several battleships detached for minor repairs, the US Navy breaks through my screening units and manages to do an end run on my carriers, sinking all four for no capital ship loses on their side. The survivors straggle home, many ships badly damaged during the ferocious engagement as my battle line attempted to screen against the full might of the US battlefleet.

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However, Niall’s victory has come at a steep cost. Most of his battlefleet is badly damaged, and he has nothing to follow his success up with. More than that, I still have 6 carriers in reserve (2 fleet, 4 light), and several hundred naval bombers scouring the Bismarck Sea means that he has to risk his battleships again to sail them to safer harbours for repairs. Several of them take further damage as they retreat, many of them out of the battle for almost a year.

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While Niall has blunted my offensive power quite severely, he has nothing to interfere with in my operations in the DEI, which were the main objective. Trying to use the Philippines as an unsinkable aircraft carrier has become next to impossible as trying to supply it with fuel would cost him too many convoys and tank his war support. The Japanese conquest of the southern resource area won’t quite be the lightning strike it was in history, but it is as inevitable as the rising of the sun.

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With hindsight, my performance in the naval war thus far comes down to:

  • Lack of radar allowing Niall to get the drop on me in a critical moment

  • Lack of training due to fuel concerns

  • Insufficient coverage of the seazones with naval bombers failing to disrupt the enemy on the approach

  • Not enough screening vessels to protect my carriers against his battle fleet. Although Yamato sunk several ships and survived to fight another day, spending the same amount of 3 heavy cruisers would likely have yielded better results

  • Good performance of my light forces when engaged on equal terms

That is all for today. Tune in at 1600 CET for another stream with an indepth look at fuel.
 
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So , am i correct in that the land based air wiping out all the carrier planes been addressed?
They have stated more than once that it will be fixed, but have not seen any 'proof' it actually is yet.
 
@Archangel85 Will the other minor countries from previous expansions get their naval trees updated as well, like from Together for Victory and Death or Dishonor?
 
While I get this is a neat way to describe how everything culminates together in a potential session between you and a friend this doesn't seem to add much in value in terms of information game for the new release. Ignoring the obvious questions for a release date why don't you announce a contest to have individuals test your build out in a beta in order to report bugs or major balancing flaws before it fully gets released? I mean it be nice to get a update with it not suffering through obnoxious stuff like we saw within the initial phase of waking the tiger. Which either just didn't work or were so one sided mechanic wise that it just made the whole thing a slog for months until you guys got around to fixing some of the stuff.
 
Looking at the one naval battle you showed us. it looks like the following:

1. Planes are used after DDs find the enemy.
2. DDs and CLs are scouting. You call it screening but its really scouting.
3. Battleships delivered the killing blow on the carriers.

I want to be able to do the following:

1. Build naval carrier and land based planes scout, find, and kill the enemy. Planes should be able to sink carriers without surface fleet assistance.
2. I want to build a modern navy in the game without battleships and be successful. I should be able to do this.Battleships became obsolete for naval combat during WWII. They were not that effective in the battle of Leyte. Had Taffy 3 been under the command of a naval air admiral and not MacArthur, some of the aircraft would have been armed for ship combat and some armed to support the landings. Taffy 3 would have been even more successful against the IJN battleships and cruisers. That is why in modern navies, there aren't any battleships.
3. Build Cruisers, Light cruisers and destroyers that screen carriers and/or protect SLOCs.
3a. CLs and DDs protect SLOCs.
3b. CAs, CLs and DDs screen carriers in the rear not the front of the battle.

If your DLC does these three things above, then you have succeeded in building an excellent, comprehensive, grand strategy WWII game and will have made my day. I am hoping that what I saw in the AAR is a McArthur trying to be an Admiral and what I want to see is Nimitz planning and leading the Naval battle. I am hoping that a good respectable Admiral playing the game can mimic Nimitz and that the mechanics of the game, that we cannot mod, allow it.
I just have to mention that Battleships are not obsolete and if just a little time was put into them they could work well in the modern world with more speed and etc...
 
I just have to mention that Battleships are not obsolete and if just a little time was put into them they could work well in the modern world with more speed and etc...
Well they are testing railguns and lasers, so maybe some sort of gun platform will make a comeback in the future for the warships of the world.
 
JESUS CHRIST IS THIS EVER GOING TO BE FINISHED?!

That feeling when Kingdon Hearts 3 comes out sooner than this expansion..............................

Vaporware confirmed.
 
I suspect you are a half glass empty person.

Or perhaps you don't realise that modders modify while game designers design. There is a huge difference between changing a group of basic game designs and modding an existing structure.

You seem to have a lot of Pdx games - don't you think it better to support one of the few companies that produces computer games that require thought rather than reflexes? To me $19.99 is a small price to pay for the many hundreds of hours of enjoyment I get from Pdx games. That is far less than the price of a meal, just over the cost of a movie ticket.

I am not some fanatic supporter of Pdx and have been quite critical of HOI4 - I have hardly played vanilla and I pre-bought the whole package. The game is finally looking as though I can play it through. But I am not unhappy at Pdx. In a world where Fortnite and its clones rule, I am grateful for what I get. I am also grateful for unpaid modders - I have played BI since it first put out its HOI3 mod.

Having said all that, my impatience for that which must not be named is at bursting point. Give me release!
What are you a beggar? These were features RIPPED from the previous game which they made with less resources and a smaller company, but now it takes them a year to give us systems that shouldve shipped with the game? Oh but i should be grateful because the big daddy corp gave me a drop of water this year .This is a giant corporation and they have not updated their game in a full year? It's unacceptable and the only reason some people tolerate it is because of their past games. They can only coast by on their past reputation for so long.
 
Cheers for the DD Archangel :) A lot to like there, and it sounds like the naval game is getting some real depth in it, far beyond the degree of HoI's past, which makes me smile a lot :D.

defending the Empire of Japan’s honor

Banzai!

Mutsu small.jpg


I received some out-of-game intelligence (Niall bragging in the kitchen that his destroyer swarms would annihilate me)

Espionage DLC confirmed, now with 'nothing is safe at the water cooler' feature o_O

JESUS CHRIST IS THIS EVER GOING TO BE FINISHED?!

That feeling when Kingdon Hearts 3 comes out sooner than this expansion..............................

Vaporware confirmed.

At least at the moment the complainers on the forum that like to complain about DLCs being too small aren't making much in the way of noise - but this is the cost of it - from what we've seen in DDs, there's a stack of content and mechanical work in Man the Guns. Given this, it's hardly surprising that it's taking a fair bit of time.
 
I just have to mention that Battleships are not obsolete and if just a little time was put into them they could work well in the modern world with more speed and etc...

Really? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/01/04/Navy-wants-to-mothball-USS-Iowa-New-Jersey/5553631429200/

This link shows the USN differs with your opinion. Annual cost in 1991 of one battleship was 34 million and when the New Jersey was used in the lebanese civil war of 1983, the USN said it was of little value. A modern missile cruiser armed with tomahawk missiles and UAV(unmanned Air Vehicles) , drones costs 15 million a year or half of a battleship and just as effective. Battleships do not give you the biggest bang for your buck IRL; it seems they are an exception in HOI IV.

Also research USS Missouri and USS Wisconsin for their final glory in the Gulf War of 1991. Soon thereafter, the USN mothballed them again and turned them into the museum pieces they really are.
 
In the stream today @Archangel85 and @Ceebie mentioned that the pearl harbor focus on the us tree went the way of the dodo. they also said a US player would be really pissed if the player lost 9 battleships at the completion of a Japanese focus. Of course that same focus would give the American 100 percent stability and 100 percent war support. So PDX, what is wrong with a little bit of IRL?
 
This link shows the USN differs with your opinion. Annual cost in 1991 of one battleship was 34 million and when the New Jersey was used in the lebanese civil war of 1983, the USN said it was of little value. A modern missile cruiser armed with tomahawk missiles and UAV(unmanned Air Vehicles) , drones costs 15 million a year or half of a battleship and just as effective. Battleships do not give you the biggest bang for your buck IRL; it seems they are an exception in HOI IV.

Also research USS Missouri and USS Wisconsin for their final glory in the Gulf War of 1991. Soon thereafter, the USN mothballed them again and turned them into the museum pieces they really are.

...Got sources? Modern day ships cost a lot more, even frigates are costing over 30M annually in 1991 dollars.

Also, it was originally planned to replace the Iowas with the Zumwalts, but the Zumwalts ended up being so over budget that contracts were breached and the whole project was canned, leading to only three destroyers being built total out of an originally planned thirty two.
 
Cheers for the DD Archangel :) A lot to like there, and it sounds like the naval game is getting some real depth in it, far beyond the degree of HoI's past, which makes me smile a lot :D.



Banzai!

View attachment 446479



Espionage DLC confirmed, now with 'nothing is safe at the water cooler' feature o_O



At least at the moment the complainers on the forum that like to complain about DLCs being too small aren't making much in the way of noise - but this is the cost of it - from what we've seen in DDs, there's a stack of content and mechanical work in Man the Guns. Given this, it's hardly surprising that it's taking a fair bit of time.
Nah theyre just lazy and its wayy cheaper to space out dlc like this and makes them way more money (all they care about). If you havent noticed for all their games their recent dlcs are all negative for a reason. It takes them a year to implement things which were in the previous game? Give me a break indie devs manage to put out more work than these jokers. Modders do more work than both but thats because they have passion unlike pdx