HoI4 Dev Diary - Soviet Union Exiles

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Bratyn

Content Design Lead
Paradox Staff
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Dec 25, 2012
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“Comrade Bratyn, you have been found guilty of counter-WW2 activity. You have been seen consorting with citizens and even figurehead ideologues of the Imperator team. Undeniable proof of work by your hand can be seen in publications by this group of dissidents made over the course of the past year. You do not fool us. We know “Drikus” is just another alias you use.
“Your attempts at shirking your duties to the Team will not be tolerated. Discussion of the Classical Period is wholly unacceptable behaviour for a HoI4 citizen; publication of treasonous material is a crime far, far worse. You are hereby stripped of your rank and sentenced to the mines in HoI-beria. Perhaps a year’s hard labor working on good, proper WW2 material will enable you to see the errors of your ways, and rehabilitate you sufficiently to regain your previous liberties.
“Comrade Bratyn, I will not welcome you back. You were foolish to think you could ever leave, in the first place.”


Hello everyone, and welcome to the third (yes you read that right) dev diary on the Soviet Union focus tree! And yes, in the words of a famous hero who fought valiantly and sacrificed himself for the defense of Earth some 25 years ago: “Hello boys! I’m baaaaaaaaaack!” Not to worry, though! Unlike Russel, I’m not here to destroy the project by dealing catastrophic damage to the superweapon that is this very next DLC that we’re unleashing upon a collection of RVs near a remote and officially non-existing military base in Nevada the world. That requires backbone, and we’re not allowed to have one of those here in HoI-beria.

It has already been explained in previous DDs that the sheer size of the Soviet tree has meant multiple CDs have been slaving away working proudly on it. This has been doubly the case for the non-Communist branches (which the eagle-eyed among you already noticed in last week's diary must lurk off to the side of the picture you were shown): the collection of CDs that have contributed to these branches have almost been as numerous and varied as the groups comprising the White Movement that inspired them... *Laughs nervously, glancing at his room’s locked door* While I initially was given some background features to toil away on, I eventually was drafted into this group of laborers-- *Glances at the silhouettes of guards visible through the window in the door, sweating this time and continuing in an excessively loud voice* ...Erhhh, I-I mean, I volunteered for this honorable task to contribute in some small way to the ever-increasing glory of the HoI4 Team, which has so graciously and mercifully deigned to allow me to prove my unceasing loyalty through my labor! *Sweats profusely* ...I, uh, am also proud to have volunteered as… as spokesman for this assembled group of CDs, and tell you all about what we’ve been doing!

*Clears throat raspily* Very well, let’s get started.


The Exiles

In 1936 the so-called White Movement was in shambles. Despite extensive international support, the Bolsheviks had eventually defeated the loose and diverse anti-Communist coalition (who really only agreed on one point: that the communists must be defeated) that vied for control of the country in the Russian Civil War. With many of their leaders dead, much of the remnants of the Whites fled the country rather than be purged. Many of these fled to Manchuria, which in the early 1930s was invaded and occupied by the Japanese.

In the years afterwards these exiles in Manchuria were supported by the Japanese to cause problems for the Soviets across the border (including such intrepid endeavours as erecting a giant neon swastika 3km from the Soviet-Manchurian border). While certainly not the only collection of White exiles in the world, they were the only ones to be in any conceivable position to do any material damage whatsoever to the Soviet state. If an anti-Soviet uprising was to take place, it would therefore likely be in the old White-controlled areas of the Far East and Siberia: far from the tightly-controlled industrial areas of the far west of the Soviet Union, and where Japanese equipment and support would be most forthcoming.

Are you up for the challenge of ousting the Bolsheviks after all, guiding the nation through an Electric Boogaloo of Russian civil wars, reinstating the Romanovs, and, finally, returning its former Glory to the Russian Empire?

Exiles_full.png

The Build-Up

If so, the only way to affect such a drastic change by the mid-1930s is through civil war.

In many ways the build-up to the Civil War for the Nationalists and the Tsarists plays similar to the Communist Opposition build-ups, albeit with a somewhat different touch. The red army is highly politicized so you will find it harder to actually gain a large following there, and you won’t get any support from the NKVD either. But let’s look at the “pre-civil-war” part of the tree:

precivilwar branch.png

This part of the branch all revolves around various ways in which to prepare for the civil war: obtaining equipment, units, factories, national spirits, decisions, and even advisors for when the civil war kicks off. At the same time, decisions allow you to spread your influence (starting in the Far East) throughout the Soviet Union, readying states for an uprising to coincide with crossing the border from Manchuria. Despite this preparatory work, however, the Soviets have solidified their power tremendously over the past 20 years, and this war will be a challenge.

approach semyonov.png


Religion

One way of preparing for the continuation of the counterrevolution, and undermining communist support, is to gain the support of the church. Some of the Orthodox Church’s bishops (‘metropolitans’) had fled abroad rather than cooperate with such a militant atheist government as Stalin’s. Others elected to stay, and in 1927 Patriarch Sergy issued a divisive Proclamation on behalf of the Russian Orthodox Church that professed absolute loyalty to the Communist government of the country. Many metropolitans broke communion with him as a result. Despite the proclamation, 1931 still saw the destruction of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow, to make room for a colossal Palace of the Soviets. These are the kinds of decisions that need to be overturned to return faith and religion to the central position that it deserves in Russian society, providing suitable rewards accordingly.

article 124.png


religion branch.png

Eventually, you may begin the war:

the hands do.png


As stated, it will not be easy, and the Soviets enjoy a tremendous military and industrial advantage over you. You will have to make intelligent use of your resources and subversive activities to level the playing field even slightly and make an unlikely victory happen. Luckily, the possibility of foreign aid exists, though even this may not be enough. The final ‘ace in the hole’ is swallowing your pride and making the Japanese an offer they cannot resist: the elimination of a rival power to their northwest, major territorial gains on the Pacific coast, and even the installation of a subject regime in the power vacuum their rival’s collapse would create… All this might buy their direct involvement, but the price is very high...

Consolidation

civilwar recovery.png

Once the civil war has been won, it is now time to consolidate your power, rebuild the war-torn nation, and replace the White provisional government with the more stable will of a Romanov. This calls for the convening of a Zemsky Sobor, who will elect Tsar Vladimir I to this position.

return of the tsar.png


These focuses (and some of the later religious branch’s focuses) also will also spark the return of many anti-Communist exiles to their homeland. From here, you may continue to embrace either of the two predominant ideological flows that comprise the White Movement:

tsarist fascist branches.png

The first of these is the Tsarist branch - solidifying the Tsar’s autocratic control over the country and restoring the Romanov dynasty. This branch seeks to restore the Russian Empire’s old borders; reconquering the many states that were lost after the Great War, and pushing beyond.

tsarist branch.png

The second of these is the Fascist branch - turning over power to Rodzaevsky and reducing the Tsarist to a figurehead monarch, like in many nations in the West. Under this leadership, the embarrassments of old will be redressed and avenged; in particular the Empire’s defeat at the hands of Japan over 30 years prior. This path also focuses on naval build-up in the far east, and even explores bold forays into the Americas…

fascist branch.png

Finally, a doublet of formable nations exist for these branches. As the Tsarists, it is possible to extol the unity of the Slavic Peoples, and truly take up the role of their Protector. Be strong enough, be liked enough, and Slavic nations under threat will join you willingly. If not, you may take them by force. Regardless of how you unify them: you may form a grand Union of the Slavs if you succeed in this task.

panslavic nationalism.png


panslavic nationalism decisions.png


Alternatively (and open to both branches), you might emphasize the role of the Church in the new nation you have created. Choosing this spiritual path will elevate the Metropolitan of Harbin to leader of the nation, and opens up the ability to claim Russia’s rightful place as the only true heirs of an empire long gone…

third rome.png


Finally, I’ll briefly hand over the word to Comrade @Wrongwraith.

New Releasables

As hinted in last week's DD we’ve also added a few more releasable countries that can become independent in a peace deal or through focuses. So basically all SSR’s, ASSR’s and some of the Okrugs of the USSR are covered, as well as some other countries that existed before the establishment of the Soviet Union in 1922.

To give you an idea, the map can now look like this:

fragmented_SU.png

Some of the releasable countries overlap. For example, the Far Eastern Republic has cores on both Chukotka and Vladivostok as well. The map above shows as many simultaneous countries as possible in the Soviet Union area.

And of course this means loads of new flags. Some of you guessed right last week! The flags shown were for an independent communist Karelia and a non-aligned Buryat Republic.

And there are loads more, like this one for example:

sakha_republic.png


In addition, we added a few new formables for those countries, just in case you feel like reforming Idel Ural for example.



Now, with that out of the way: that was all from us for today! It should go without saying that the tree is still being actively worked on, and so what you saw here may not represent 100% what is eventually released. I do hope you liked this little peek into what’s going on with the not-so-Communist Soviet things! *Attempts to feign a joyful laugh, but then glances nervously at the door again, leans forward, and adds in an urgent whisper:* I mean it… If I don’t meet my quota of likes and get a ratio of above 90% for this diary I’ll be scrubbing keyboards for a month!

Oh - almost forgot - the Soviet Focus Tree behemoth as of currently:


soviet.jpg





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You're right, somebody hast to be the bad guy, otherwise the party will not start. Yet, there is only one bad guy needed - and this could be achieved with some hidden interlocks.
You don't even need the interlocks - even with historical checkbox off, what are the chances that both Germany and Russia go democratic, while Britain and France don't pick the alternative?
 
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Ad far as I know, there is exactly one example in history where countries which really deserved the designation "democratic" were at war with each other, and this were some allied bombing raids on Finnland during WW2, and even these raids were very limited. So generally speaking, democrats don't shot at each other.
That depends very much on how you define 'democratic'.
 
Yes. But you can see 29 pages of people mostly listing why they don't like it. And whether for reasons founded or unfounded, these are the people who are going to be buying the finished product. I would say that whatever your view, one should at the very least respect the fact that those who are willing to pay for it want something that they feel will not be provided. And that it behooves the devs to listen to.
The tree after the first two USSR dev diaries was great. I think that most people can agree.
It is this latter part that most players think lacks research. Do I hate the DLC for it? No, because the positive in my opinion outweighs the not so good.
Perhaps the development time could have been invested in some better fitting content (Finland?), but I don’t work at Paradox.
 
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Why is the assumption that Democratic-ideology countries necessarily get along? In KR you can have SPD Germany and Democratic Russia fight without any issues.
Because the devs decreed it so. Mechanically, Democracy is the most limited in waging war. Design-wise, it is very rare for an explicitly Democratic country and focus path to poop on another explicitly Democratic country. In fact, if you exclude huge memes like Turkey's Misak-ı Millî or Mexico's March Southwards, or gamey like getting just enough Communist support for the 30% threshold as the USA, it's just Britain's Home Defense branch, and Netherlands's Minor Democracies attacking Britain.

Also, forming the Berlin-Moscow Axis will make every Democracy (including Sweden and Switzerland) shit its pants, flip USA back Democratic and all form one faction. Make of that what you will.
 
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Personally, I am considering a potential democratic path for the USSR or the transition to social democracy through Bukharin, if he is very keen on liberal reforms or through the dictatorship of the Belakh generals with a gradual transition to democratic rule
Bukharin had no interest in social democracy or liberalism. But he might have gone too far too fast with market reforms and lost control of the situation.
 
Yes. But you can see 29 pages of people mostly listing why they don't like it. And whether for reasons founded or unfounded, these are the people who are going to be buying the finished product. I would say that whatever your view, one should at the very least respect the fact that those who are willing to pay for it want something that they feel will not be provided. And that it behooves the devs to listen to.
People tend to complain more then they take the time to talk about the parts they like. This Russian Tree is by far the best PDX have ever done. Any demands to rework it seems unfunded.
 
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People tend to complain more then they take the time to talk about the parts they like. This Russian Tree is by far the best PDX have ever done. Any demands to rework it seems unfounded.
What about those one who did talk about it? Even went as far as repairing the branch to give it more depth like Kuro did? You can look up his posts here, heck, even my early posts in this devdiary which has me giving my favourite dev here necessary feedbacks.

I'm agree though that everything else on the Soviet Focus Tree except this one branch is the best they have ever done, ever. It's PDX Gold Team's Content Designers' Magnum Opus, and i'm for certain believes that this branch is just WIP along with the portraits and we'll see the completed version on the next week or two.

Make Democratic Russia at least as interesting as Democratic Turkey or Devolutist Yugoslavia, or Monarchist Russia as Monarchist Germany, or Fascist Russia as Facsist UK. They can do better than this one branch as shown in literally every other branches in this Focus Tree.
 
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This is a Morse coded message for those who didn't know


SAVE ME! LAST NIGHT THE CAMP ONLY FED ME A SWEDISH BANANA-AND-CURRY PIZZA!
 
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SAVE ME! LAST NIGHT THE CAMP ONLY FED ME A SWEDISH BANANA-AND-CURRY PIZZA!
I thought I was the only one who noticed it
 
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Thanks for your support, guys! I updated/cleaned up some things on CM mini tree to make it feel more immersive and less clunky, probably the last version. I hope Paradox will consider this.

Doesn't your fascist branch lack some improvement though? Two or three political and diplomatic focuses would be nice for them.
 
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i think it would be cool if you add a democratic path, i know the russian republic didnt last for long, but being honest here, neither the us, britain or japan were ever communist but they have paths for doing just that, i think it would add more flavour to the game and make it more interesting
 
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Doesn't your fascist branch lack some improvement though? Two or three political and diplomatic focuses would be nice for them.
Well, i tried to make this as less ambitious and time consuming as possible to fix the major issues so Paradox maybe considered doing something like this. Out of both trees from paradox, the fascist is kinda more developed than a monarchist one. I gave them shared with monarchists panslavic nationalism along with cbs on old borders and exclusive bizzare theocracy path. As for diplomacy... i don't know. The Germans are the only possible option, but if RFP goes panslavic, their interests would clash badly.
 
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It is possible that you can also add Siberia, maybe even Irkutsk and Urals too as a releasable tags? It could fix the bordergore a little bit and maybe you could also add some nations that you can split Russia proper for roleplay/flavour purposes? I would really like to split up Eastern Russia into something like Novgorod and Moscow and not only Belarus and Ukraine
 
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The most possible option would be choosing opposition to Stalin but... actually having an option to build Soviet Union on democratic ground as the civil war concludes. There could be many reasons - death of leadership, war exhaustion, desire to accommodate other side rather than having purges, you name it. It is tricky, but not impossible concept to actually get Democratic USSR as a result of would-be Civil War failing to bring Right/Left opposition a clear victory/defeat and different factions settling theory problems between themselves in democratic way instead of reenactment of Stalin Purges.

Choosing such scenario would give you Democracy as USSR, communist democracy even. And it does not rely on Russian liberals at all.
So basically something like the Supreme Soviet focus branch that was described in the previous DD?
 
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So basically something like the Supreme Soviet focus branch that was described in the previous DD?

Basically just add it an alternative finisher to become Democracy. And maybe some fluff in text and such.

That would not be Russian Republic/Federation but Democratic Soviet Union that is pretty fitting and still plausible in this route.

That's little work to do, gives highly plausible Democratic route, makes it more of an endgame content.

That's just my opinion though, there may be more issues with it.
 
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Basically just add it an alternative finisher to become Democracy. And maybe some fluff in text and such.

That would not be Russian Republic/Federation but Democratic Soviet Union that is pretty fitting and still plausible in this route.

That's little work to do, gives highly plausible Democratic route, makes it more of an endgame content.

That's just my opinion though, there may be more issues with it.
Thats what Im saying, The Supreme Soviet focus is already basically a demsoc finisher where your country literally does not need any kind of figurehead anymore, which makes it more democratic than any other country currently in the game. Of course, it doesn't get "democratic" ideology text, but it is still a Soviet Union, after all - demsoc CSA doesn't get that one either.
 
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Why is the assumption that Democratic-ideology countries necessarily get along? In KR you can have SPD Germany and Democratic Russia fight without any issues.
the whole point of ideologies in base-game hoi4 is that it's about alignment more than actual ideology. it's why Anarchists and Monarchists are both non-aligned, it's why Sinkiang is Communist and it's why Finland is non-aligned. If everyone is democratic then it's as if everyone is "aligned". In Kaiserreich, ideologies serve an entirely different function, so it's different.
 
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Well, i tried to make this as less ambitious and time consuming as possible to fix the major issues so Paradox maybe considered doing something like this. Out of both trees from paradox, the fascist is kinda more developed than a monarchist one. I gave them shared with monarchists panslavic nationalism along with cbs on old borders and exclusive bizzare theocracy path. As for diplomacy... i don't know. The Germans are the only possible option, but if RFP goes panslavic, their interests would clash badly.

Ok, so let's assume there is enough diplomacy in there. But if i am reading the fascist focuses correctly there don't seem to be any NFs that give you things like PP, a national spirit etc. in there, right?
 
Tsarist Russia, is altogether fictional scenario for that time period; its really niche thing, and kinda useless waste of of effort
Well, this is just your opinion man. A lot of fans here love alt-history scenarios.

And i really wanna talk about "This is fantasy, not alt-history!" argument. Brace yourselves

Let's assume, JUST ASSUME, i don't claimning it to be true, and i don't want to start a holywar between pro-soviets and anti-soviets here. So, let's assume that some minor, but noticable part of people didn't realy like Bolsheviks. It's no stranger than to assume that Trotsky or Bukharin had a huge support among the population. A simple folk, after collectivisation, hunger and other stuff that happened in the 1925-1935 they've get disappointed in communism. They were disorganised, they didn't even knew how many of them exist. They just clenched their teeth and keep silent, because they didn't want to meet NKVD. They didn't have prominent leaders. Then, timeline divergence. Something happened. Stalin is dead in 36-s, maybe there really was a conspiracy against him, maybe he just slipped on the stairs and break his neck. Party without leader begin the political struggle, complete chaos, anti-bolshevik forces become vocal, White Exiles decide it's their chance to come back and lead the counter revolution. Is it a believable situation? Not in our world, but in some different timeline, under certain circumstances, with certain assumptions? YES IT IS. It's no more, no less fantasy than Trotskytes winning a civil war against Stalin. This is alt-history. A good "What if?" scenario.

Now, let's talk about what's next. In this "What if" scenario, the White Exiles have won. The Tsar returned to Moscow. He know that despite his victory, he's in a weak position. His support is low. He needs allies. The country is in ruins after Second Civil War. A lot of influential and skilled White Movement generals was a Republicans. He knows that not only, but one of the things that lead to revolution in february 1917 was slow reforms and inability to properly liberalise the country. But he's a patriot. He don't want to provoke the people and repeat the mistakes of his predecessor. He don't want communists taking over country again. So he declares popular reforms, delegates autority to the Duma and elected prime minister and stays as constitutional monarch, a symbol of the nation, the Tsar-Liberator. Is this believable scenario? Could something like this happen in some alternative timeline? YES IT IS. It's no more, no less fantasy than Bukharin's success. This is alt-history. This is logical and plausable conclusion.

And finally, let's look at what Paradox did:

The Tsar returns to Moscow. The first thing he does, he declares war on Mongolia because of the Yoke. Rebuilding the country? C'mon, this is Russia, baby. We'll reinstate mestnichestvo, because it was so effective. It was abolished in 17th century but whatever, probably they did it because they just wanted to, not because it was outdated and ineffective even back then or anything. Then he creates an Orthodox Pope, nevermind this being a major heresy in Orthodox Christianity, he didn't call him a pope, he called him "Arch-Patriarсh", so this is different, c'mon, guys! Then he steps down and crowns that Definitely-Not-A-Pope. Hello, Papoceasarism, condemned by Orthodox Church centuries ago, and served as one of reasons of great schism. And as cherry on the top, this pope renames Russia to the Third Rome. Because... why not?

Is this possible? Is this believable? NO, IT'S NOT. Not in any imaginable timeline, not under any circumstances, not even with biggest assumptions. The only way i can imagine this happening, if that entire Russia, everyone, Tsar, white army and all officers, clergy, all influential figures, all common people, simultaniously lost their damn mind. THIS is pure fantasy. No, it's not even a fantasy. This is PURE SURREALISM. It's something out of "The Red Flood", which is a great mod and i love it, but Red Flood is exactly it - a surrealistic mod about French declaring reality not real and reviving old Celtic language and religion, or Finnish leader proclaim himself Pharaoh of Egypt.

Alternative history scenarios doesen't necessarily need to take into account every single little detail, it allows certain level of assumptions. But it need to have logic and consistency. Alt history scenario make the game more interesting, diverse and add replayability. They should be in. Surrealism and concentrated absurdism shouldn't
 
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