HoI4 Dev Diary - Soviet Union Exiles

Bratyn

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“Comrade Bratyn, you have been found guilty of counter-WW2 activity. You have been seen consorting with citizens and even figurehead ideologues of the Imperator team. Undeniable proof of work by your hand can be seen in publications by this group of dissidents made over the course of the past year. You do not fool us. We know “Drikus” is just another alias you use.
“Your attempts at shirking your duties to the Team will not be tolerated. Discussion of the Classical Period is wholly unacceptable behaviour for a HoI4 citizen; publication of treasonous material is a crime far, far worse. You are hereby stripped of your rank and sentenced to the mines in HoI-beria. Perhaps a year’s hard labor working on good, proper WW2 material will enable you to see the errors of your ways, and rehabilitate you sufficiently to regain your previous liberties.
“Comrade Bratyn, I will not welcome you back. You were foolish to think you could ever leave, in the first place.”


Hello everyone, and welcome to the third (yes you read that right) dev diary on the Soviet Union focus tree! And yes, in the words of a famous hero who fought valiantly and sacrificed himself for the defense of Earth some 25 years ago: “Hello boys! I’m baaaaaaaaaack!” Not to worry, though! Unlike Russel, I’m not here to destroy the project by dealing catastrophic damage to the superweapon that is this very next DLC that we’re unleashing upon a collection of RVs near a remote and officially non-existing military base in Nevada the world. That requires backbone, and we’re not allowed to have one of those here in HoI-beria.

It has already been explained in previous DDs that the sheer size of the Soviet tree has meant multiple CDs have been slaving away working proudly on it. This has been doubly the case for the non-Communist branches (which the eagle-eyed among you already noticed in last week's diary must lurk off to the side of the picture you were shown): the collection of CDs that have contributed to these branches have almost been as numerous and varied as the groups comprising the White Movement that inspired them... *Laughs nervously, glancing at his room’s locked door* While I initially was given some background features to toil away on, I eventually was drafted into this group of laborers-- *Glances at the silhouettes of guards visible through the window in the door, sweating this time and continuing in an excessively loud voice* ...Erhhh, I-I mean, I volunteered for this honorable task to contribute in some small way to the ever-increasing glory of the HoI4 Team, which has so graciously and mercifully deigned to allow me to prove my unceasing loyalty through my labor! *Sweats profusely* ...I, uh, am also proud to have volunteered as… as spokesman for this assembled group of CDs, and tell you all about what we’ve been doing!

*Clears throat raspily* Very well, let’s get started.


The Exiles

In 1936 the so-called White Movement was in shambles. Despite extensive international support, the Bolsheviks had eventually defeated the loose and diverse anti-Communist coalition (who really only agreed on one point: that the communists must be defeated) that vied for control of the country in the Russian Civil War. With many of their leaders dead, much of the remnants of the Whites fled the country rather than be purged. Many of these fled to Manchuria, which in the early 1930s was invaded and occupied by the Japanese.

In the years afterwards these exiles in Manchuria were supported by the Japanese to cause problems for the Soviets across the border (including such intrepid endeavours as erecting a giant neon swastika 3km from the Soviet-Manchurian border). While certainly not the only collection of White exiles in the world, they were the only ones to be in any conceivable position to do any material damage whatsoever to the Soviet state. If an anti-Soviet uprising was to take place, it would therefore likely be in the old White-controlled areas of the Far East and Siberia: far from the tightly-controlled industrial areas of the far west of the Soviet Union, and where Japanese equipment and support would be most forthcoming.

Are you up for the challenge of ousting the Bolsheviks after all, guiding the nation through an Electric Boogaloo of Russian civil wars, reinstating the Romanovs, and, finally, returning its former Glory to the Russian Empire?

Exiles_full.png

The Build-Up

If so, the only way to affect such a drastic change by the mid-1930s is through civil war.

In many ways the build-up to the Civil War for the Nationalists and the Tsarists plays similar to the Communist Opposition build-ups, albeit with a somewhat different touch. The red army is highly politicized so you will find it harder to actually gain a large following there, and you won’t get any support from the NKVD either. But let’s look at the “pre-civil-war” part of the tree:

precivilwar branch.png

This part of the branch all revolves around various ways in which to prepare for the civil war: obtaining equipment, units, factories, national spirits, decisions, and even advisors for when the civil war kicks off. At the same time, decisions allow you to spread your influence (starting in the Far East) throughout the Soviet Union, readying states for an uprising to coincide with crossing the border from Manchuria. Despite this preparatory work, however, the Soviets have solidified their power tremendously over the past 20 years, and this war will be a challenge.

approach semyonov.png


Religion

One way of preparing for the continuation of the counterrevolution, and undermining communist support, is to gain the support of the church. Some of the Orthodox Church’s bishops (‘metropolitans’) had fled abroad rather than cooperate with such a militant atheist government as Stalin’s. Others elected to stay, and in 1927 Patriarch Sergy issued a divisive Proclamation on behalf of the Russian Orthodox Church that professed absolute loyalty to the Communist government of the country. Many metropolitans broke communion with him as a result. Despite the proclamation, 1931 still saw the destruction of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow, to make room for a colossal Palace of the Soviets. These are the kinds of decisions that need to be overturned to return faith and religion to the central position that it deserves in Russian society, providing suitable rewards accordingly.

article 124.png


religion branch.png

Eventually, you may begin the war:

the hands do.png


As stated, it will not be easy, and the Soviets enjoy a tremendous military and industrial advantage over you. You will have to make intelligent use of your resources and subversive activities to level the playing field even slightly and make an unlikely victory happen. Luckily, the possibility of foreign aid exists, though even this may not be enough. The final ‘ace in the hole’ is swallowing your pride and making the Japanese an offer they cannot resist: the elimination of a rival power to their northwest, major territorial gains on the Pacific coast, and even the installation of a subject regime in the power vacuum their rival’s collapse would create… All this might buy their direct involvement, but the price is very high...

Consolidation

civilwar recovery.png

Once the civil war has been won, it is now time to consolidate your power, rebuild the war-torn nation, and replace the White provisional government with the more stable will of a Romanov. This calls for the convening of a Zemsky Sobor, who will elect Tsar Vladimir I to this position.

return of the tsar.png


These focuses (and some of the later religious branch’s focuses) also will also spark the return of many anti-Communist exiles to their homeland. From here, you may continue to embrace either of the two predominant ideological flows that comprise the White Movement:

tsarist fascist branches.png

The first of these is the Tsarist branch - solidifying the Tsar’s autocratic control over the country and restoring the Romanov dynasty. This branch seeks to restore the Russian Empire’s old borders; reconquering the many states that were lost after the Great War, and pushing beyond.

tsarist branch.png

The second of these is the Fascist branch - turning over power to Rodzaevsky and reducing the Tsarist to a figurehead monarch, like in many nations in the West. Under this leadership, the embarrassments of old will be redressed and avenged; in particular the Empire’s defeat at the hands of Japan over 30 years prior. This path also focuses on naval build-up in the far east, and even explores bold forays into the Americas…

fascist branch.png

Finally, a doublet of formable nations exist for these branches. As the Tsarists, it is possible to extol the unity of the Slavic Peoples, and truly take up the role of their Protector. Be strong enough, be liked enough, and Slavic nations under threat will join you willingly. If not, you may take them by force. Regardless of how you unify them: you may form a grand Union of the Slavs if you succeed in this task.

panslavic nationalism.png


panslavic nationalism decisions.png


Alternatively (and open to both branches), you might emphasize the role of the Church in the new nation you have created. Choosing this spiritual path will elevate the Metropolitan of Harbin to leader of the nation, and opens up the ability to claim Russia’s rightful place as the only true heirs of an empire long gone…

third rome.png


Finally, I’ll briefly hand over the word to Comrade @Wrongwraith.

New Releasables

As hinted in last week's DD we’ve also added a few more releasable countries that can become independent in a peace deal or through focuses. So basically all SSR’s, ASSR’s and some of the Okrugs of the USSR are covered, as well as some other countries that existed before the establishment of the Soviet Union in 1922.

To give you an idea, the map can now look like this:

fragmented_SU.png

Some of the releasable countries overlap. For example, the Far Eastern Republic has cores on both Chukotka and Vladivostok as well. The map above shows as many simultaneous countries as possible in the Soviet Union area.

And of course this means loads of new flags. Some of you guessed right last week! The flags shown were for an independent communist Karelia and a non-aligned Buryat Republic.

And there are loads more, like this one for example:

sakha_republic.png


In addition, we added a few new formables for those countries, just in case you feel like reforming Idel Ural for example.



Now, with that out of the way: that was all from us for today! It should go without saying that the tree is still being actively worked on, and so what you saw here may not represent 100% what is eventually released. I do hope you liked this little peek into what’s going on with the not-so-Communist Soviet things! *Attempts to feign a joyful laugh, but then glances nervously at the door again, leans forward, and adds in an urgent whisper:* I mean it… If I don’t meet my quota of likes and get a ratio of above 90% for this diary I’ll be scrubbing keyboards for a month!

Oh - almost forgot - the Soviet Focus Tree behemoth as of currently:


soviet.jpg





... .- ...- . / -- . -.-.-- / .-.. .- ... - / -. .. --. .... - / - .... . / -.-. .- -- .--. / --- -. .-.. -.-- / ..-. . -.. / -- . / .- / ... .-- . -.. .. ... .... / -... .- -. .- -. .- -....- .- -. -.. -....- -.-. ..- .-. .-. -.-- / .--. .. --.. --.. .- -.-.--
 
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MrMcQue

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Well, i tried to make this as less ambitious and time consuming as possible to fix the major issues so Paradox maybe considered doing something like this. Out of both trees from paradox, the fascist is kinda more developed than a monarchist one. I gave them shared with monarchists panslavic nationalism along with cbs on old borders and exclusive bizzare theocracy path. As for diplomacy... i don't know. The Germans are the only possible option, but if RFP goes panslavic, their interests would clash badly.

Ok, so let's assume there is enough diplomacy in there. But if i am reading the fascist focuses correctly there don't seem to be any NFs that give you things like PP, a national spirit etc. in there, right?
 

Kuro1211

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Tsarist Russia, is altogether fictional scenario for that time period; its really niche thing, and kinda useless waste of of effort
Well, this is just your opinion man. A lot of fans here love alt-history scenarios.

And i really wanna talk about "This is fantasy, not alt-history!" argument. Brace yourselves

Let's assume, JUST ASSUME, i don't claimning it to be true, and i don't want to start a holywar between pro-soviets and anti-soviets here. So, let's assume that some minor, but noticable part of people didn't realy like Bolsheviks. It's no stranger than to assume that Trotsky or Bukharin had a huge support among the population. A simple folk, after collectivisation, hunger and other stuff that happened in the 1925-1935 they've get disappointed in communism. They were disorganised, they didn't even knew how many of them exist. They just clenched their teeth and keep silent, because they didn't want to meet NKVD. They didn't have prominent leaders. Then, timeline divergence. Something happened. Stalin is dead in 36-s, maybe there really was a conspiracy against him, maybe he just slipped on the stairs and break his neck. Party without leader begin the political struggle, complete chaos, anti-bolshevik forces become vocal, White Exiles decide it's their chance to come back and lead the counter revolution. Is it a believable situation? Not in our world, but in some different timeline, under certain circumstances, with certain assumptions? YES IT IS. It's no more, no less fantasy than Trotskytes winning a civil war against Stalin. This is alt-history. A good "What if?" scenario.

Now, let's talk about what's next. In this "What if" scenario, the White Exiles have won. The Tsar returned to Moscow. He know that despite his victory, he's in a weak position. His support is low. He needs allies. The country is in ruins after Second Civil War. A lot of influential and skilled White Movement generals was a Republicans. He knows that not only, but one of the things that lead to revolution in february 1917 was slow reforms and inability to properly liberalise the country. But he's a patriot. He don't want to provoke the people and repeat the mistakes of his predecessor. He don't want communists taking over country again. So he declares popular reforms, delegates autority to the Duma and elected prime minister and stays as constitutional monarch, a symbol of the nation, the Tsar-Liberator. Is this believable scenario? Could something like this happen in some alternative timeline? YES IT IS. It's no more, no less fantasy than Bukharin's success. This is alt-history. This is logical and plausable conclusion.

And finally, let's look at what Paradox did:

The Tsar returns to Moscow. The first thing he does, he declares war on Mongolia because of the Yoke. Rebuilding the country? C'mon, this is Russia, baby. We'll reinstate mestnichestvo, because it was so effective. It was abolished in 17th century but whatever, probably they did it because they just wanted to, not because it was outdated and ineffective even back then or anything. Then he creates an Orthodox Pope, nevermind this being a major heresy in Orthodox Christianity, he didn't call him a pope, he called him "Arch-Patriarсh", so this is different, c'mon, guys! Then he steps down and crowns that Definitely-Not-A-Pope. Hello, Papoceasarism, condemned by Orthodox Church centuries ago, and served as one of reasons of great schism. And as cherry on the top, this pope renames Russia to the Third Rome. Because... why not?

Is this possible? Is this believable? NO, IT'S NOT. Not in any imaginable timeline, not under any circumstances, not even with biggest assumptions. The only way i can imagine this happening, if that entire Russia, everyone, Tsar, white army and all officers, clergy, all influential figures, all common people, simultaniously lost their damn mind. THIS is pure fantasy. No, it's not even a fantasy. This is PURE SURREALISM. It's something out of "The Red Flood", which is a great mod and i love it, but Red Flood is exactly it - a surrealistic mod about French declaring reality not real and reviving old Celtic language and religion, or Finnish leader proclaim himself Pharaoh of Egypt.

Alternative history scenarios doesen't necessarily need to take into account every single little detail, it allows certain level of assumptions. But it need to have logic and consistency. Alt history scenario make the game more interesting, diverse and add replayability. They should be in. Surrealism and concentrated absurdism shouldn't
 
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Mastah Jedi

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Well, this is just your opinion man. A lot of fans here love alt-history scenarios.

And i really wanna talk about "This is fantasy, not alt-history!" argument. Brace yourselves

Let's assume, JUST ASSUME, i don't claimning it to be true, and i don't want to start a holywar between pro-soviets and anti-soviets here. So, let's assume that some minor, but noticable part of people didn't realy like Bolsheviks. It's no stranger than to assume that Trotsky or Bukharin had a huge support among the population. A simple folk, after collectivisation, hunger and other stuff that happened in the 1925-1935 they've get disappointed in communism. They were disorganised, they didn't even knew how many of them exist. They just clenched their teeth and keep silent, because they didn't want to meet NKVD. They didn't have prominent leaders. Then, timeline divergence. Something happened. Stalin is dead in 36-s, maybe there really was a conspiracy against him, maybe he just slipped on the stairs and break his neck. Party without leader begin the political struggle, complete chaos, anti-bolshevik forces become vocal, White Exiles decide it's their chance to come back and lead the counter revolution. Is it a believable situation? Not in our world, but in some different timeline, under certain circumstances, with certain assumptions? YES IT IS. It's no more fantasy than Trotskytes winning a civil war against Stalin. This is alt-history. A good "What if?" scenario.

Now, let's talk about what's next. In this "What if" scenario, the White Exiles have won. The Tsar returned to Moscow. He know that despite his victory, he's in a weak position. His support is low. He needs allies. The country is in ruins after Second Civil War. A lot of influential and skilled White Movement generals was a Republicans. He knows that not only, but one of the things that lead to revolution in february 1917 was slow reforms and inability to properly liberalise the country. But he's a patriot. He don't want to provoke the people and repeat the mistakes of his predecessor. He don't want communists taking over country again. So he declares popular reforms, delegates autority to the Duma and elected prime minister and stays as constitutional monarch, a symbol of the nation. Is this believable scenario? Could something like this happen in some alternative timeline? YES IT IS. It's no more fantasy than Bukharin's success. This is alt-history. This is logical and plausable conclusion.

And finally, let's look at what Paradox did:

The Tsar returns to Moscow. The first thing he does, he declares war on Mongolia because of the Yoke. Rebuilding the country? C'mon, this is Russia, baby. We'll reinstate mestnichestvo, because it was so effective. It was abolished in 17th century but whatever, probably they did it because they just wanted to, not because it was outdated and ineffective even back then or anything. Then he creates an Orthodox Pope, nevermind this being a major heresy in Orthodox Christianity, he didn't call him a pope, he called him "Arch-Patriarсh", so this is different, c'mon, guys! Then he steps down and crowns that Definitely-Not-A-Pope. Hello, Papoceasarism, condemned by Orthodox Church centuries ago, and served as one of reasons of great schism. And as cherry on the top, this pope renames Russia to the Third Rome. Because... why not?

Is this possible? Is this believable? NO, IT'S NOT. Not in any imaginable timeline, not under any circumstances, not even with biggest assumptions. THIS is pure fantasy. No, it's not even a fantasy. This is PURE SURREALISM. It's something out of "The Red Flood", which is a great mod and i love it, but Red Flood is exactly it - a surrealistic mod about French declaring reality not real and reviving old Celtic language and religion, or Finnish leader proclaim himself Pharaoh of Egypt.

Alternative history scenarios doesen't necessarily need to take into account every single little detail, it allows certain level of assumptions. But it need to have logic and consistency. Alt history scenario make the game more interesting, diverse and add replayability. They should be in. Surrealism and concentrated absurdism shouldn't
I mean if we gonna go with fantasy like Tzarist Russia in the era covered by the game, why not add magic, elves, dragons and other tropes from fantasy. Any one of those things are equally realistic for the time period. Let's do Soviet steam punk, and alien invasion; necromancers and so forth.
 
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I mean if we gonna go with fantasy like Tzarist Russia in the era covered by the game, why not add magic, elves, dragons and other tropes from fantasy. Any one of those things are equally realistic for the time period. Let's do Soviet steam punk, and alien invasion; necromancers and so forth.
No need to argue that hard.

If we can agree that the main difference between alt history and fantasy is some sort of plausibility, then we have a base for a discussion.
The point here is how plausible some people judge some “what if” scenarios to be.
Even playing on historical will strive further and further into a “what if”, because otherwise the outcome of the game would be already determined. As an example, as Germany you still play to get an outcome in your favor - unlike history.
 
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Dzewana

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The alternative to communism is rather disappointing ... Few political decisions and nothing for the rest. It would have been preferable to also define an economic alternative and a military alternative.

The most realistic alternative was certainly to start from a crisis of Stalinism. The player could then move towards a communist alternative (the easiest) or a non-communist alternative (the most difficult). In the latter case, the collapse of the USSR would not have resulted in the immediate cancellation of all communist measures but their gradual reform according to the chosen path (democracy, fascism, tsarism). It was impossible to replace a well-established totalitarian regime so easily ... With the possibility of a new civil war, a non-communist alternative had to define a new model for bringing the population together and bringing order to the country.
 
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SovietWeeb

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While I am happy with what we have, I got to admit that the Monarchist path leaves me feeling a bit disappointed. Just in terms of its size. Take into account that it's a shared Focus. Then it really isn't much. I'd like to petition an Alternative path for the Monarchist/Fascist. Embracing the Eurasian identity.

While I may not be the best person to talk about this, Russia is unique in its geography of expanding from the Atlantic to the Pacific ( USA doesn't count) Meaning that, unlike Britain or France that have colonial holdings that can artificially expand their territory and sphere of influence. Russia goes throughout Europe and Asia. The ideas of a Eurasian identity aren't new to the world. Has been around for a while. But no country besides Russia has come close. Russia has so many different cultures inside of it. That it encompasses a little of all around the world.

So have a path that goes off of your decisions. If you are fascist then have decisions to embrace your European or Asian identity. If you go Monarchist then have a middleman where you try embracing both Asian and European. If you embrace Asian or European, then you can get some buffs while also suffering some debuffs based on what you embraced. While monarchist is the middleman with no debuffs but lesser buffs in comparison.

Maybe also have some paths like how you can go about it. While Fascism will be more about buffs to the army to capture nations by force. While the Monarchist path will be more about trying to exert or build relations with other nations. Such as Royal marriages between any of the major powers. Maybe except Japan, where they will be the Endgame path instead of Germany for once. As I can't imagine Japan would be willing to wed into another Royal house of a foreign power or even wed a foreigner at all.

The ultimate goal would be to unite from Brest, France to Okinawa, Japan. It will be tough. After all, you are trying to bring most of the world mass under one banner.

I may have missed some important factors. But I feel this can be one of the greatest missed opportunities that Paradox has done with HOI4. Lots of people have wanted something like a Eurasian nation. Now would be the time. I would love a path meant for Veteran HOI4 players. Something that isn't truly easy and is tough. Besides trying to unite all of Polynesia as NZL. I haven't really had a real challenge from base HOI4 ( And mods) in a long time

P.S the name Eurasia might need a different name to call this new country.
 
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Kuro1211

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Ok, so let's assume there is enough diplomacy in there. But if i am reading the fascist focuses correctly there don't seem to be any NFs that give you things like PP, a national spirit etc. in there, right?
Looks like it. "Rebuilding the Eastern Fleet", is probably dockyards or naval base, and "Modernize" is probably research bonus for ship models or naval doctrine. Not sure what "Eastern Expansion" does, maybe this is national spirit with war justification speed.
 

grommile

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That title makes no sense btw. "Arch" is already part of patriarch
"Arch-Patriarch" is a perfectly reasonable English-language word for a patriarch set above other patriarchs. (Not necessarily the best, but perfectly reasonable.)

I make no comment, positive or negative, on whether the underlying concepts of the game path that leads to this title appearing are reasonable.
 
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KnyazSuvorov

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@Bratyn

It seems to me this is an example of textbook mismanagement of allocated resources. My apologies Bratyn.

Instead of allocating resources to developing a democratic & non-aligned path, the dev team decided to focus on the different brands of communist paths.


My criticism is as follows:

1) Why waste so much time on Bukharin & Trotsky?

Sure they're nice to have but if you would look at the stats:

How many people currently choose Trotsky as the leader of the USSR????

I have hardly ever seen that in multiplayer games. To me it seems like nobody cares, it's a nice to have but does not add any real value.

2) Why treat the non-aligned path as a "Second rate/leftover path"????

Like there is a complete lack of notice that there were still some ex-Czarist officers serving in the Red army in 1936, many of whom were bigger monarchists than the 1918-1920 whites.

Instead of bringing up Black Hundreds (in 1936? Come on, that's just implausible), why not offer:
A) Recreate Imperial Guard Units as a sign of reconciliation between USSR and Old Russia (hate to bring up modern politics, but Putin did it a few years ago!)
B) Include negotiations with the ROVS (never happened, but can if you want)
C) Appoint ex-Czarist officers to leadership positions

That's actually plausible. Imagine Stalin deciding to use "Military specialists" against "Red Army Civil War heroes". Seems plausible. Unlike Semyonov launching an invasion from the east with remnants of Kolchak's units.

3) Why Siberia & Far-East and not Crimea, Krasnodar, Kharkov as the spawn point?

Siberia & Far-East always lacked the population to compete on par with Central Regions. French/English Supplies is also easier to attain from the Black Sea. Just why?

4) Why no democratic path but 3 communist paths?

I know of people going through the hassle of getting Kerensky in Multiplayer. It's stupid but they like it.

Why is there no democratic path?

No development resources?

How come there were resources found to expand so much on Bukharin then?

Is a third brand of communism more important than a single option of democracy?

Spoiler: myself, never done democratic Russia and never plan to. I do see others wanting it though.

5) Why is the only monarch choice Vladimir Kirillovich?

Like you could always just use the Kaiserreich mod as a guide you know, or research and find that there was also this guy:


Of course I am happy that the Soviet focus tree is at least somewhat updated.

But this looks like an attempt to "let's make communists interesting and do a last-minute effort on the other political paths". Which is a course which I think will not be appreciated by the vast majority of USSR players.

I guess I have to be thankful that we're getting something for USSR... after 5 years of waiting.
 
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Znail

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@Bratyn

(...)

5) Why is the only monarch choice Vladimir Kirillovich?

Like you could always just use the Kaiserreich mod as a guide you know, or research and find that there was also this guy:
(...)
It's because Vladimir is ahead in the line of succesion. Russia had a pure male line rule, that means that Duchess Xenia doesn't matter and Andrei have to draw his claim through Nischolas I while Vladimir draws it from Alexander II. PDX actually did it's research and got it right.
 
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Lord Valdyr

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You don't even need the interlocks - even with historical checkbox off, what are the chances that both Germany and Russia go democratic, while Britain and France don't pick the alternative?
Sometimes other nations will be pushed into being the belligerent anyway. I did a run of Communist Germany back near when the game launched, and some very interesting things happened. I joined the comitern, while Poland made their own communist faction that was not allied with us; France left the allies, and Italy declared the Novo Roman Imperium and began attacking everyone, starting the war. You may not have one "big" true "world war", but with historical focuses off, it's very unlikely their won't be multiple small wars even if "the big one" doesn't kick off. Japan will also start shit in Asia if no one intervenes. which can spiral to europe via India & French Indochina.
 

Zackerum

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Weren't the Mensheviks and other democrats like supporters of Alexander Kerensky big forces in the white movement, and not just the Tsarists and Fascists? I find it odd that they are not represented in a white movement based tree.
 
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KnyazSuvorov

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It's because Vladimir is ahead in the line of succesion. Russia had a pure male line rule, that means that Duchess Xenia doesn't matter and Andrei have to draw his claim through Nischolas I while Vladimir draws it from Alexander II. PDX actually did it's research and got it right.
Not entirely true, that's the shallow "information on the surface".

Kirill had major legitimacy & reputational problems all the way from the 1920s, that were inherited by Vladimir.

Kirill's line of succession had multiple problems:
1) Vladimir's father Kirill lost the privileges he had from birth and was removed from the line of succession in 1905 for his non-orthodox, close-kin marriage to a divorcee that was not permitted by the emperor, which was a crime as per the succession law of the Russian Empire.

He was restored to the family in 1909, but there is a controversy whether that included the succession rights.

2) Even if Kirill was restored himself to the succession line, whether or not his offspring from the originally illegal marriage (including Vladimir), even if they were restored to the family, were permitted succession rights is a source of further controversy.

3) His father Kirlll's betrayal of the monarchy during the February revolution of 1917 (joining the revolutionaries instead of maintaining his oath to the Emperor) disgusted the monarchists and was held against him for very long.

4) Furthermore, the ROVS (Russian All-Military Union, which was the most influential white exile organization succeeding all evacuated White Armies) explicitly forbade its members from being part of Kirill's monarchist organization RISO (Russian Imperial Union-Order, "Русский Имперский Союз Орден") and his "Russian Imperial Corps of the Army and Navy"(the military wing)

5) When in 1922 there was the announcement of the Zemskiy Sobor in the Far-east by General Diterikhs, there was no mention of Kirill as the rightful heir to the empire.

At the time, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Nicholas_Nikolaevich_of_Russia_(1856–1929) was recognized as the spokesman for the Romanov Imperial House, and he explicitly denied the right of succession to Kirill Vladimirovich. In 1924 he also became the head of the ROVS(Russian All-Military Union, the successor of the White Armies).


In short, Vladimir's legitimacy was questionable, which is why he didn't even call himself "Emperor in exile".

The consensus was that following the recapture of Russia, there will be a "Zemskiy Sobor" that will elect the new emperor: where Vladimir was the easiest choice, but not the only one.

Pretty much any Romanov had the right to attempt to seek election, and even technically non-Romanovs stood a chance (though the consensus was the new emperor should be a Romanov for continuation purposes).
 
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TheAtreides84

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huge dd, and I have to admit, I'm a bit impressed by the alt-history path. I feared the worst for it, but it's not very memey at all and as plausible as possible and seems to be challenging but fun!

I wouldn't say that a one-state union of all slavic nations in the world after a second russian civil war is plausible in any way. Fun, but not really plausible.
 
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Flight_of_Icarus

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Maybe I'm in the minority, but I was one of those weirdos that actually enjoyed the Democratic paths of some nations, especially Germany, with their interesting constitutional monarchy path.

Also, at some point there's going to have to be changes for other focus trees. Going non-Communist as the Soviets makes a lot of the German paths really awkward to follow, since the tree is focused on anticommunism and the Soviet Union. In general I feel like the focus trees across the board could really use some tweaking to work better with the other focus trees already in the game. I mean what happens if you form an alliance with Britain as a Monarchist Germany when Britain has ALSO gone monarchist and gotten rid of the Allies? It's broken and fails to work.
 
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