HOI4 Dev Diary - India - Struggle for Independence

tom_jones

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Not trying to be negative but the last few diaries have all made me think the same question. Why does someone playing a WWII game care about Indian independence? Canada moving away from being a dominion of England etc. It makes sense in an EU style game that's going to last 400 years, to watch your empire go from a small country to a large empire. A game about WWII has a much smaller scope so there seems to be little benefit here. I'm sure there's an aspect I'm missing here so if someone could help open my eyes I would appreciate it.
Local patriotism? Surprising as it may sound, there's people from Canada and India who play the game, too.
 
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The_Meme_Man

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Not trying to be negative but the last few diaries have all made me think the same question. Why does someone playing a WWII game care about Indian independence? Canada moving away from being a dominion of England etc. It makes sense in an EU style game that's going to last 400 years, to watch your empire go from a small country to a large empire. A game about WWII has a much smaller scope so there seems to be little benefit here. I'm sure there's an aspect I'm missing here so if someone could help open my eyes I would appreciate it.
Just a goal for play. It's as much a goal to fight for independence as India as it is to defend the free world as America, beat off the Japanese imperialists as China, or restore Roman boarders as Italy. There were a lot of entangled agendas during WWII, and the period alone has drastically decided how the modern world looks today. The Great Depression only justifies the turmoil of the political climate of every country in the world.
 
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jarmenia

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Local patriotism? Surprising as it may sound, there's people from Canada and India who play the game, too.
I can't imagine that's enough of a factor alone to generate enough revenue for PDX to create an expansion with this theme. I'm assuming this appeals to a wider audience and I'm not understanding the play style that makes this expansion exciting.


Just a goal for play. It's as much a goal to fight for independence as India as it is to defend the free world as America, beat off the Japanese imperialists as China, or restore Roman boarders as Italy. There were a lot of entangled agendas during WWII, and the period alone has drastically decided how the modern world looks today. The Great Depression only justifies the turmoil of the political climate of every country in the world.
But all of the things you listed, the US defending the free world, Japan fighting China, Italy expanding its borders... Those are all WWII specific actions and greatly influence the outcome of the war. How is India, Canada, or Australia's independence going to change the course of WWII?

Am I understanding that you are saying by playing India, you're not playing a WWII game but instead a game about India taking place in the period of WWII?
 
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tom_jones

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I can't imagine that's enough of a factor alone to generate enough revenue for PDX to create an expansion with this theme. I'm assuming this appeals to a wider audience and I'm not understanding the play style that makes this expansion exciting.
You are now moving the goal posts. Your question was "why would anyone care about independence of X" and I provided you a possible answer. Now, whether there's enough of such people who do care about these things to 'make financial sense', is a completely different issue.

Clearly though, PDX seems to think this is worth their time and effort, or they wouldn't have bothered. It might be because they have access to data neither you nor I do.
 
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@podcat As Linlithgow only became Viceroy in April 36, will you be adding Willingdon in the '36 start date?

Edit: Also if India is still a colony in 1943, the British should get an event to choose whether to replace Linlithgow with Wavell or not
 
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TheWackyWombat

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Even though the commonwealth gets the most benefit from the dominion/Independence changes, that doesn't mean they're the only ones that are affected by it.

The system adds reasons to puppet countries, rather than straight up annexing them for everyone; That'll have a major effect on how the war plays out. If you want to anex everything when you play, you may not see a difference, but I expect it'll have consequences on how the AI handles provinces in the long run.
 

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But all of the things you listed, the US defending the free world, Japan fighting China, Italy expanding its borders... Those are all WWII specific actions and greatly influence the outcome of the war. How is India, Canada, or Australia's independence going to change the course of WWII?
By taking away a ton of the UK's effective manpower? On its own the UK can't/couldn't sustain a war against Germany, but with the entire Commonwealth, it's the world's biggest superwower, the UK's power comes directly from the empire.
 
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jarmenia

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You are now moving the goal posts. Your question was "why would anyone care about independence of X" and I provided you a possible answer. Now, whether there's enough of such people who do care about these things to 'make financial sense', is a completely different issue.

The important part you left off my question was "as it relates to a WWII game".

Clearly though, PDX seems to think this is worth their time and effort, or they wouldn't have bothered. It might be because they have access to data neither you nor I do.
Agreed, which makes me think I'm missing out on a game play aspect I could be enjoying which was why I asked the question to begin with.

For example, if I'm playing India, is my goal Indian independence and I don't really care about the outcome of WWII or is there an aspect of Indian independence that I'm missing as it relates to WWII?
 
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The important part you left off my question was "as it relates to a WWII game".
I don't really get the importance of this part. Should it being a WW2 game somehow reduce the player's possible interest in seeing the country they identify with to gain the independence? It seems to me 1940-45 could be as good time for that as 1947 or 1982, or any other date.

edit:
For example, if I'm playing India, is my goal Indian independence and I don't really care about the outcome of WWII or is there an aspect of Indian independence that I'm missing as it relates to WWII?
I think the mistake here is presuming it has to be one or the other. But there's nothing that really prevents the player from wanting *both* to win, and get independent.

(cue the whynotbothgirl.jpg
 
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But all of the things you listed, the US defending the free world, Japan fighting China, Italy expanding its borders... Those are all WWII specific actions and greatly influence the outcome of the war. How is India, Canada, or Australia's independence going to change the course of WWII?

Am I understanding that you are saying by playing India, you're not playing a WWII game but instead a game about India taking place in the period of WWII?
Imagine WW2 if the United Kingdom lacked Indian troops. Imagine if none of the Commonwealths decided to help fight the axis. Or India decides to break free while the British are busy and go ahead with befriending the axis. There are many incredibly different outcomes that could have happened from different decisions that nations could have taken. Additionally, Indian independence was brought up a lot between Roosevelt and Churchill and the Third Reich even had a volunteer core from India (Indians were hoping the Germans would give them independence.) Lastly, this just makes the game more interesting and maybe makes multiplayer a bit more interesting playing as the UK trying to keep all your commonwealths under your control lol.
 
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Just when I think I'm starting to get burned out on HoI4, these Dev Diaries get me excited again. :p
 
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Imagine WW2 if the United Kingdom lacked Indian troops. Imagine if none of the Commonwealths decided to help fight the axis. Or India decides to break free while the British are busy and go ahead with befriending the axis. There are many incredibly different outcomes that could have happened from different decisions that nations could have taken. Additionally, Indian independence was brought up a lot between Roosevelt and Churchill and the Third Reich even had a volunteer core from India (Indians were hoping the Germans would give them independence.) Lastly, this just makes the game more interesting and maybe makes multiplayer a bit more interesting playing as the UK trying to keep all your commonwealths under your control lol.

Thanks, this is the type of answer I was looking for. When you say Indian independence was brought up between Roosevelt and Churchill in what context? Concerned about Indian independence? Roosevelt pushing for it?
 

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As already mentioned in the dev blog, 2.5 million Indians volunteered to fight in WW2, more than any country in history. In addition to India's contributions in North Africa and Burma, the Indian contingent was also the third largest force in Italy during it's liberation.

Economically too, India was somewhat important, as can be seen from the GDP data below (figures in 1990 Geary-Khamis million dollars, which basically means US dollars adjusted for purchasing power parity). Now I admit most of India's production was NOT geared towards the war (mostly food and cash crops I guess but more industry than China in the 1940s) but that is the point of the game isn't it? The game gives you the historical position as of the start date (1936 or 1939) and then it's up to you to make what you can of it.

GDP.jpg


I am not saying that India was a major participant in the war when compared with Germany, the USSR, the US, the UK, Japan or even China. But if you want to play outside of those countries, India can provide the most gameplay value (sorry Canada and Australia - I love you but your manpower is just... too low!).

The reason Gandhi, Nehru and most of the major Indian leaders sided with the Allies was because they were already aiming for a democratic India. The British had promised India Independence if they fought alongside them and this was preferable to the Indians as compared to a new non-democratic imperial overlord (Japan). Compared to the 2.5 million Indians who fought for the Allies, only 40K prisoners of war eventually joined the Japanese backed Azad-Hind-Fauj under Subhash Chandra Bose.

Bose eventually did take some Indian territory from the British like the Andaman islands and small portions of NE India. This raises some interesting gameplay choices for the Indian player. What if the player decides to back Bose and take more Indian territory? What if the UK capitulates? Will Churchill and his "...Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, carry on the struggle...” Or was Hitler right in saying that, "...whatever be the methods chosen, the Indians are unanimous in their desire to shake off the British yoke."

To find out, play HoI IV: TfV !!
 
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Tankbusta8

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Not gunna lie but if they left all these 'minor' countries alone you all would bitch and whine about how they dont care about the minor nations, fuck sake, they cant ever win with you lot can they?
 
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Gamer_1745

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There is already a Fortify Malta focus down the Mediterranean Bastion tree (Adds coastal forts and airbases I believe), what else could be feasibly added?
OH, they could do so much more. NFs as they are currently done are simplistic. One NF could fire an event chain that can unfold over years & happen differently under different conditions. I am not sure how hard it would be to do technically but you could have Britain build a harden sub-base that would give a bonus to subs operating in that sea zone if they hold Malta. Or you could code things that if the Axis hold Gib & the Suez that in 3 months Malta surrenders without being attacked. Have a NF that can only happen after Britain is at war that allows you to stock it with supplies to make it so that it can holdout much longer. NFs are about choices, do you take the time to supply Malta or fortify Britain?
 
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Gamer_1745

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Or, or, they could add The Knights.
They could have focuses to get cores on malta rhodes and jerusalem.
Edit: :p
That could be interesting. It might be part of an event/NF chain that mobilizes the Christian Knight ethos against the forces of darkness (Communism & Nazi Neo-Paganism). Portugal still has strong ties there & could be used to get them to join your faction or just a bunch of volunteers.
 
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Gamer_1745

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Please give us some of those as forum avatars. Oh pretty please.
Yes, make it so only those who buy the expansion get them (from all the Commonwealth countries) & you will sell even more copies of the expansion!
 
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