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llib

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Firstly, you forget that the USSR could've sent troops through Romania and if Hungary was involved, Yugoslavia and Romania would be involved as the little entente was against Hungarian revanchism and also remember that Romania and Yugoslavia both wanted a weak Hungary so although they probably wouldn't have helped against Germany, they were required to and would've against Hungary and Yugoslavia only became unreliable after Munich, not before. And the French army would perform better, because the Germans wouldn't have attacked through Belgium and Netherlands, so they wouldn't be flanked.
Sorry, but no - Yugoslavia even before Anschluss was falling out of little entente, formally maintaining membership only for purpose of maintaining preferential treatment from Czechoslovakia in military equipment and industry help. It's membership was half-hearthed after Alexander's assasination.
As for French army performing better or not, I was referring to counter-offensive that French army mounted in order to help Poland, which did not achieved anything.
USSR could have sent troops through Romania(there was no other way except Poland really) but the transport network would make this line very thin. Considering all the equipment (starting with small arms ammunition and aviation fuel incompatibility), this would not be all that helpful. I'm not entirely sure if going through Hungary would help all that much, because bottleneck may have been the mountains in the border areas.

And Germany wouldn't have a border with Hungary before Anschluss, and because of the Czechoslovak fortifications, they barely had the numbers to go past even then and wouldn't really be able to spare much troops to Hungary. And you really think Czech would lose so much land in 3 months. Firstly, they had superior tanks and secondly the German blitzkrieg wouldn't work in mountains or against fortifications. Also about Poland, Czech in fact was creating a plan to gain Czech support, where in return for a Polish alliance or at least poland allowing soviet forces through, Czechoslovakia would give Teschen and any part of slieslia claimed by Poland to Poland along with east Prussia if it also helped against Germany. And this was much more than Germany could offer. Also Czechoslovakia would hold more than 3 months, as it was planned that the fortifications would hold for 6 months, giving enough time for the USSR to come aid and France to finish mobilizing their army. Also why would you think Romania's and Yugoslavian involvement against Hungary was uncertain? They both hated Hungary and neither wanted a stronger Hungary.
It all depends which point in time are we discussing - right after Anschluss, southern border was completely unfortified(some mobilization plans were even counting on invasion of Austria in case of conflict with Germany, but this was cancelled after Anschluss as it become completely unrealistic), but this was to some extent remedied by the time of Munich crisis.
Germany had massive mobilization potential. And it would be choosing time and place of start of war.
As for the tanks, they would not have played all that important role - there wasn't enough of them, with little hope to get more once war start due to mobilization and likely loss of factories, and largest unit was brigade. Forget any spearhead breakthrough attacks. Also they were light tanks, essentially armored against machinegun fire - hit from any gun would take it out.
As for holding for three months - the problem really is the three-sides envelopment. Czechoslovak general staff was realistic enough about this, and major defensive battle was not planned for before Bohemian-Moravian highlands, which would be the line to hold in case of success, in case of failure, retreat to Slovakia.
As for plots to win Polish favor, they were desperate attempts to secure at least part of depressingly long border. Poland had no intent to help Czechoslovakia and was at the time amusing itself with thoughts about German-Polish pact against bolsewism(and had non-aggresion pact in any case).
Plans for fortifications were meant for the time when those would be complete. But they were never completed. And to be honest I don't really recall about them being intended to hold for six months, and I am highly skeptical that anybody would expect that after Anschluss(before, maybe).
As for Hungarian question, little entente was intended to prevent return of Habsburgs to throne(keep in mind that their return to throne would revive claims for land belonging to little entente members), which it did. It was never intended to counter Germany, and Yugoslavia especially had no will to fight and bleed in what they perceived as German-Bohemian issue.

Well, they mostly became skeptical, because although the UK-French alliance required that the UK will help any ally of France so long as French is involved, chamberlain didn't want to help czechoslovakia and they were worried that the uK might not give support any more, which would make German blockades harder. However I think that even before Munich agreement, they might've won without Britain. Also Japan and Italy only officially joined the Axis after Munich, so it would've been just Germany and maybe Hungary. And I don't see it as hoping for the best, I see it as betraying an ally and sticking your head in the sand in denial of everything, which says a war will happen. Czechoslovakia was pretty much along with the USSR, Yugoslavia, Romania and France in the start, the only countries which worried about a War against Hungary or Germany. Britain pretty much had their head in the sand, and after Munich, Daladier when applauded said that the French were fools in private. Also the Czechs had a clever system to deal with Slovakian loyalty. As the Slovaks hated the Hungarians, but their loyalty wasn't perfect, they had mainly Slovaks at the Hungarian front as no Slovak would want to fight for Hungary and the Czechs against Germany.
It doesn't matter all that much whether Italy was or was not in alliance with Germany, it was opportunistic country that would want to pressure French if it could. Simple truth is that for French alone, blocakade of German traffic would be ineffective and it would be unable to ignore significant Italian navy in the mediterranean. This would make French naval communications vulnerable to corsair ships that were relatively ineffective against UK.
I agree with what you say about betrayal, but it was not done only by French, but also UK, Poland, and Yugoslavia. Though all had understandable reasons for it, it is clear in retrospect that it was folly(and I think this lesson was well learned and is behind current relatively stable stance on Crimea and such).
As for the inter-nationality relationships and feelings, well that can help to some extent, however all it means in reality is that part of the tropps were not as reliable in all situations. By the way, large german minority meant there was some issue with part of the manpower, which was more affecting some specialist professions (such as drivers) because german minority was generally well trained.

By the way, I'm not sure if we may be getting too off-topic, if mods would think so, I'll stop here.
 

Khevenhuller

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Wilhelm II was most definitely not a Nazi, nor was he a fan of them.

Apologies :) 'Little Willy' was the slightly insulting term used to refer to the Crown Prince in WW1 by the British. I was just wondering, in the context of a 'Return of the Hohenzollerns' scenario which one you would use.

K
 

kucsidaveee

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Dear Paradox,
Well, I am kinda dissapointed in this. I actually had high hopes for this.
The hungarian tree is utterly dissapointing, though there are some good parts.
But for the love of god, I beg you to fix the mistake, and rename the focus to Győri Progrom, which should be in the Military part, since the upgrading of the industry was only the first phase of a 4 phased plan.
1st phase: Industralization
2nd phase: Army modernization and Defensive fortification. (mostly against the soviets, including the Árpád Line)
3rd phase: Airforce modernization and drastic expansion.
and a possible 4th part was planned in case hungary gets a corridor to the sea, which would have been a naval rearmament phase.
Though it would have required serious money as well.
I also hope that the previous mistake with the Zrínyi II being a TD was fixed, since it was a self propelled Artilery.
The develop Tanks focus should have been called The Toldi Project or something like that, since that was the hungarian Armor project at the beggining of the war.
I also think that the Province map of the whole region should be redrawn.
To be honest, there IS a great mod out there, which represents hungary MUCH better than this update will.
The pictures are old, but if you would please take a look at it and learn from it I would be deeply honored.
If nothing else, please CONTACT THE GUYS MAKING IT!

Please don't misunderstand, I didn't came here just to tell that everything is wrong, I just want Hungary to be as it should be and what it deserves. And it deserves to be as detailed as every other faction you do.
Also, I know that Licensing is the new stuff and direction, but does the new factions have an opportunity to have technology sharing groups with the factions they join other than the continous focus?
Thanks in advance for an answer to this, no matter the result.
Dave
 
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Khevenhuller

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As for French army performing better or not, I was referring to counter-offensive that French army mounted in order to help Poland, which did not achieved anything.

it was never really intended to. Gamelin was wedded to his 'continuous front' and had to be pressurised into the 'Breda Variant' to go north and help the Dutch if Germany attacked them. It just had a whiff of being a political sop to the Poles, who Gamelin considered would last for six weeks at most. General Ironside returned from a visit to Warsaw convinced that the French had 'lied' to the Poles by giving them the impression that there would be a significant French offensive against the Westwall.

The agreements between France and the new countries of Eastern Europe (intended to hem in Germany in the absence of Tsarist Russia) litter the twenties; Poland in 1921 and 1925, the Czechs in 1925, Rumania in 1926 and Yugoslavia in 1927. This was fine as long as France was manning the pump of the power vaccuum that existed in the twenties, lots to gain in terms of trade and goodwill. But the seeds of the crisis are there, and the sprout alarmingly in the thirties.

Then there is the other half of the clamshell: Maginot, the strength of the defence as demonstrated in WW1, a long war of attrition being the strategy of choice to defeat Germany. But the impact here on the Eastern allies is obvious: if France is going to adopt that approach it would leave them facing the Germans with no real assistance from France. By the early thirties the French had realised that Russia was still the answer. The Eastern allies had been enfeebled by the Great Depression (France escaped the worst, only to go into recession later) so, in 1932 there is a non-aggression pact with the Soviets. But this is torpedoed by the French right, and it does not get passed by the chamber until 1936. Even then, Gamelin refuses staff talks with the Soviets that could have given the pact some actual teeth.

The Sudeten crisis is when those fatal alliances of the twenties have to be paid for. Gamelin had already made clear at the beginning of April that no military assistance could be given to the Czechs. Vuillemin was convinced that his air force would be 'wiped out in a few days' if war came with the Germans. It is armed with advice such as this that when Daladier goes to London on 27 April he agrees with Chamberlain that there can be no military solution. This is confirmed by the French Foreign Minister who told the Czech Ambassador on 17 July that 'France would not go to war over the Sudeten Affair'. The Poles, meanwhile are less interested in helping the Czechs than in helping themselves, and they took Teschen from the Czechs.

The USSR was never going to help the Czechs on their own. It fitted with Stalin's view that the western powers were going to encourage a war between the USSR and Germany as part of some Capitalist plot. Meanwhile, the German ambassador in Moscow was sending back to Berlin regular reports of Soviet enfeeblement brought about by the purges and show trials that effectively ruled out and Soviet intervention in Eastern Europe. The French military attache found no evidence of Voroshilov's claim to have mobilised troops ready to assist the Czechs, a factor very important to the French.

K
 

The_White_Knight

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lol
It might be true that Austria voted around 99% for being anschluss´d by Germany but there are enough evidences that this Anschluss only succeeded because of the intense pressure the Nazis gave over Austria

The Anschluß was not prohibited in 1918 for nothing: it had popular support way before the Nazis appeared on the scene as a political party.
After the Austrian revolution that had overthrown the Habsburgs, a union with Germany was thought to be highly desirable in Austria (as well as in Germany). Various political groups wanted various degrees of union between the countries, but the wish for a union was fairly universal.
Not to mention that by end of WW1 Austro-Hungary and Germany were closely intertwined by economic treaties, so a political union would only have been "business as usual" in practical terms.

I have never seen any evidence of this. Can you point to some?

The Rome-Vienna-Budapest Axis was exactly such an attempt by Italy.
It would have guaranteed an Italian sphere of influence in Central Europe, because the other participants were so much weaker and reliant on Italy.
Austria wanted this alliance to protect her independence, Hungary wanted her lost territories back, and Italy wanted to acquire the territories she didn't get after WW1. Italy also helped modernize the military of Hungary (to some extent).
This "Axis"fell apart because of resurgent German militarism, the popularity of the Anschluß in Austria, and the Italian armed forces' poor performance in the Abbessynia war, and the weakness of the participants.
Austria lacked the popular will to stop Germany, and Hungarian political leaders realized that Italy cannot provide the neccessary (economic, military and technological) help needed to fully initiate Hungarian rearmament and they soon turned to Germany for this aid.
 
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Dzewana

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Hi,

I like the Hungarian national focus tree. The political options seem interesting. :)

But will there be changes in the political options of neighboring states ?

For example, I think the Polish political options are really to be reviewed. They don't offer any interest with this new dlc. :(
 

Adamgerd

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Sorry, but no - Yugoslavia even before Anschluss was falling out of little entente, formally maintaining membership only for purpose of maintaining preferential treatment from Czechoslovakia in military equipment and industry help. It's membership was half-hearthed after Alexander's assasination.
As for French army performing better or not, I was referring to counter-offensive that French army mounted in order to help Poland, which did not achieved anything.
USSR could have sent troops through Romania(there was no other way except Poland really) but the transport network would make this line very thin. Considering all the equipment (starting with small arms ammunition and aviation fuel incompatibility), this would not be all that helpful. I'm not entirely sure if going through Hungary would help all that much, because bottleneck may have been the mountains in the border areas.

Really, do you have any evidence that Yugoslavia was falling out of little entente. Also, the difference was that by the time of Poland, Germany had forts built opposite of Maginot, the west wall, which didn't yet exist. Also France didn't really want to help Poland as they disliked Poland taking Teschen from czechoslovakia, so they didn't have the same motivation

It all depends which point in time are we discussing - right after Anschluss, southern border was completely unfortified(some mobilization plans were even counting on invasion of Austria in case of conflict with Germany, but this was cancelled after Anschluss as it become completely unrealistic), but this was to some extent remedied by the time of Munich crisis.
Germany had massive mobilization potential. And it would be choosing time and place of start of war.
As for the tanks, they would not have played all that important role - there wasn't enough of them, with little hope to get more once war start due to mobilization and likely loss of factories, and largest unit was brigade. Forget any spearhead breakthrough attacks. Also they were light tanks, essentially armored against machinegun fire - hit from any gun would take it out.
As for holding for three months - the problem really is the three-sides envelopment. Czechoslovak general staff was realistic enough about this, and major defensive battle was not planned for before Bohemian-Moravian highlands, which would be the line to hold in case of success, in case of failure, retreat to Slovakia.
As for plots to win Polish favor, they were desperate attempts to secure at least part of depressingly long border. Poland had no intent to help Czechoslovakia and was at the time amusing itself with thoughts about German-Polish pact against bolsewism(and had non-aggresion pact in any case).
Plans for fortifications were meant for the time when those would be complete. But they were never completed. And to be honest I don't really recall about them being intended to hold for six months, and I am highly skeptical that anybody would expect that after Anschluss(before, maybe).
As for Hungarian question, little entente was intended to prevent return of Habsburgs to throne(keep in mind that their return to throne would revive claims for land belonging to little entente members), which it did. It was never intended to counter Germany, and Yugoslavia especially had no will to fight and bleed in what they perceived as German-Bohemian issue.
They were designed to hold for at least 6 months, and even after Anschluss, before Munich, the forts in south Moravia were progressed enough that they could've held at least 2 months. Also even after Anschluss, they still planned to invade Austria and stabilize the front after invading Hungary. And the German tanks were also light tanks until 1939, they were worse than the Czech tanks and also with the occupation of Hungary, Czech would've gottenn more factories and yeah, they did plan to retreat to the Slovakian mountains and the Sudetenland and start guerrilla warfare

It doesn't matter all that much whether Italy was or was not in alliance with Germany, it was opportunistic country that would want to pressure French if it could. Simple truth is that for French alone, blocakade of German traffic would be ineffective and it would be unable to ignore significant Italian navy in the mediterranean. This would make French naval communications vulnerable to corsair ships that were relatively ineffective against UK.
I agree with what you say about betrayal, but it was not done only by French, but also UK, Poland, and Yugoslavia. Though all had understandable reasons for it, it is clear in retrospect that it was folly(and I think this lesson was well learned and is behind current relatively stable stance on Crimea and such).
As for the inter-nationality relationships and feelings, well that can help to some extent, however all it means in reality is that part of the tropps were not as reliable in all situations. By the way, large german minority meant there was some issue with part of the manpower, which was more affecting some specialist professions (such as drivers) because german minority was generally well trained.

By the way, I'm not sure if we may be getting too off-topic, if mods would think so, I'll stop here.
Anyway in case of war by Munich, the UK would've been required to join and would've probably joined if France was involved and the British navy was massively superior to the Italian or German navy. Still from which source, does it say that Yugoslavia betrayed Czechoslovakia, they never did and where does it say they wouldn't have helped Czech. Evidence? And don't forget that parts of Germany had Czech majorities, Lusatia still has large Czech majority and would've sabotaged Germany in the same way and that the Czechs were highly moralized and even civilian Czechs would've probably created volunteer guards in the Sudetenland against Germany, as many Czechs were highly motivated. A relatively stable stance on Crimea? And lastly, I disagreee that this lesson was learned. They betrayed Poland right after WW2, czechoslovakia in 1968 and Israel in 2014. Sadly the Czech army today is much weaker. We used to spend 30% of our GDP on military. Now it's less than 0.5% and we're not building any new forts against Russia, as I don't believe nato will be really useful as Trump wants to disband it. At least I don't leave in the Baltics, who I believe if Russia invaded, the US would betray them
 

Khevenhuller

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Anyway in case of war by Munich, the UK would've been required to join and would've probably joined if France was involved

Why would the UK have been 'required to join'? The French were not going to go to war without London, and that simply gave the British a veto on French military action. Britain is a global, not simply a European power. In 1938 only New Zealand was willing to fight, the remaining Dominions were pressing for a peaceful solution. Britain and France fully believed in German propaganda, that they had three times the number of aircraft than they actually had. The idea that London and Paris would be destroyed by strategic bombing in days after the outbreak of war loomed large in the awareness of politicians.

K
 

Adamgerd

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Why would the UK have been 'required to join'? The French were not going to go to war without London, and that simply gave the British a veto on French military action. Britain is a global, not simply a European power. In 1938 only New Zealand was willing to fight, the remaining Dominions were pressing for a peaceful solution. Britain and France fully believed in German propaganda, that they had three times the number of aircraft than they actually had. The idea that London and Paris would be destroyed by strategic bombing in days after the outbreak of war loomed large in the awareness of politicians.

K
Because the UK-France alliance articles specified that "If an aggressor attacks any country that is an ally of France, the UK and France will be required to go to the defense of that country". Legally, the rest didn't matter, they might've reasons to decline, but legally they were required to. Also France was a global power, as well. The other dominions might not want to go, but as dominions, they would've legally had to go if the UK went. Also no offense, but the other dominions were idiots, thinking that appeasing a dictator will work
 

Gamer_1745

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The Rome-Vienna-Budapest Axis was exactly such an attempt by Italy.
It would have guaranteed an Italian sphere of influence in Central Europe, because the other participants were so much weaker and reliant on Italy.
Austria wanted this alliance to protect her independence, Hungary wanted her lost territories back, and Italy wanted to acquire the territories she didn't get after WW1. Italy also helped modernize the military of Hungary (to some extent).
This "Axis"fell apart because of resurgent German militarism, the popularity of the Anschluß in Austria, and the Italian armed forces' poor performance in the Abbessynia war, and the weakness of the participants.
Austria lacked the popular will to stop Germany, and Hungarian political leaders realized that Italy cannot provide the neccessary (economic, military and technological) help needed to fully initiate Hungarian rearmament and they soon turned to Germany for this aid.
Yes, I know of the 3 Powers Pact:
3pp_Rome2b.jpg

Event Image from Third Reich Events for HOI IV.

I have seen lots of evidence that Mussolini wanted Austria to be a buffer state between Italy & Germany, but no evidence Italy wanted to take over Austria. He did not want to share a border with Germany. This later changed.
 

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman

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Welcome to the third dev diary on Death or Dishonor and 1.4 Oak update! I hope you are hungry for more info because today we will be talking about... Hungary (ugh that joke didnt really work now did it?)

View attachment 262574

A landlocked Kingdom run by an Admiral, Hungary had without a doubt one of the more unusual political systems of the interwar period. At the end of the Great War, Hungary had broken away from the disintegrating Habsburg Empire, and after a brief period as a communist republic, was occupied by the Entente.

Subsequently, the Treaty of Trianon was signed, which reduced Hungary to a rump state. In the Treaty, Hungary lost two thirds of its territory and a third of its population. Harsh restrictions were placed on the Hungarian military. Hungary was banned from having a Navy (a crushing injustice, to be sure) or an air force. The Army was limited to 35,000 troops, what military factories existed were under strict observation. In many ways, it was the Treaty of Versailles of Hungary.

View attachment 262565

In game this state is represented by Hungary being a Disarmed Nation, with no available manpower, and a crippling 50% construction speed penalty for military factories. Getting out from under the treaty is your first objective. There are several ways to do this: At the far right of the tree, you have the Bled Agreement, which historically was signed in 1938 and which allows you to rearm freely. But the surrounding nations must approve it. Should they refuse, you can still abolish the treaty through other means.

After you have gotten the right to bear arms back, the tree opens up and you can choose how to rebuild your military. On the Army side, you can choose between the infantry heavy Home Defense branch and the offensive-focused Mobile Focus. In the Air Force branch, you can select how to procure new planes - you can develop them yourself or get them through license deals with other countries (the licenses in these focuses are free).

Politically, one of the obvious goals is to regain your territory. Fans of intricate event chains will be happy to know that you can gain all of these territories through peaceful annexation - if the other side agrees. The AI will call your bluff if it believes you are weaker than it, and things can quickly spiral out of control (the Demand Transylvania event chain is possibly the most extensive event chain we have ever done in HoI history, with 25 events and 16 different outcomes), which can even bring in other European countries.

If you want to take the country down a somewhat less historical path, you can decide to murder Horthy and restore the Hungarian People’s Republic, either to join the Comintern or to make your own faction.

On the other end of the political scale, we worked with the idea that Hungary was, in principle, still a monarchy. Two attempts by the deposed Carl IV in the early 1920ies failed to put the Habsburgs back on the throne, with the Hungarian parliament passing a law banning him from ever returning. The rejection broke poor Carl’s heart, and he died soon after (some say it was the pneumonia he contracted while flying to Hungary in an open plane to regain his throne, but we know better). This left his son Otto von Habsburg in charge of the house.

View attachment 262570

The monarchist faction in Hungary was split over whether the Habsburgs should be forever banned from the Throne of Hungary, or if it was only Carl who was no longer welcome. In the game, you can side with either faction. You can either offer the crown to a proper Constitutional Monarch and become a democracy, or to a King who has...connections to certain rather radical groups in other countries.

Finally, you can invite Otto von Habsburg to take the throne that was once his to inherit. If you do, you have committed to seeing the Habsburgs restored to their old glory. It will be a struggle, as the other powers of Europe will most certainly not tolerate this, and you may well find yourself at war with all three sides main factions.

Hungary also comes with lots of new art (2d and 3d)
View attachment 262578
View attachment 262572
Also new generals and leaders, here are a few of them (guess who gets to be a real admiral)
View attachment 262576


For next week's diary we will be checking out the new Equipment Conversion feature. Also do tune in to the World War Wednesday stream at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive with me and Daniel at 16:00CET. We will be going full "hot code!" mode and continue part two of our new Romania campaign.

Also, we added Aluminum in Asia (you know who you are ;P)
Theres mods for this
 

warchief1978

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Sourlol

It seems you have not really played minor nations in the game! In fact, none of the early period are available on the conditions you've described and any construction takes much more time!
If you have read carefully my writing, we spent several months collecting the necessary data about industry,army...etc.
I did not mention that my hobby is the Horthy era and most specifically the history of the Hungarian Royal Army.Over the past twenty years, I collected quite a lot of documents with this theme.The past few months I collected as much information as possible of industrial, raw materials,....... from the region.
That's why I say that is a big nothing focus tree!
Some example:
-Győri program:Nearly 500 companies supported from small businesses to giant corporates (Manfred Weiss,MÁVAG,Diósgyőr Arms Factory,Danuvia,Láng,Rába.....). Established new plants or existing ones expanded.
-Árpád line(hungarian fortress in the Carpathian mountains): which was delayed for several months the Russian troops
-According dev blog:"In game this state is represented by Hungary being a Disarmed Nation, with no available manpower, "
Well this is a historic bullshit! Thus, according to the Treaty of Trianon voluntary conscript system was enabled.But the number of the army could not exceed the 35,000 people,It could not have heavy weaponry (armour,anti-tank guns, air force,greater than 105 mm caliber guns).
This is supplemented by a secret conscript system(for example Levenete Program).
-Italian diplomatic relations:secret weapon purchases.
And many more missing!

Alex_brunius

However, it is forgotten that the fleet includes little different compared to the board for armor! Fleet decide whether the carriers or battleships you prefer, because it requires a completely different approach.Assault guns you can not develop without the development of armor!In fact, they are instruments created an armored chassis.
If it had to choose between light / medium or heavy armored tank development I can even I would be.But the response from the tank or assault gun?It's nonsense!Could be compared to most when medium bombers entered in shipborne aircraft.For example, the Italian branch of naval bomber and carrier naval bomber.
Light infantry doctrine:
I hope you will be right in.But their previous games (EU4,Victoria 2) a lot of times differed from those of historical fact.
Just one example EU4 latest patch Hungary.At that time Hungary one of the richest nations in Europe,during the time of king Mátyás militarily surpassed only by the Turks.But the new patch in spite of the historical facts the hungarian economy is very weak.
I know it's a different game,but I'm not too optimistic about the new patch.
 

Meglok

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Anyway in case of war by Munich, the UK would've been required to join and would've probably joined if France was involved and the British navy was massively superior to the Italian or German navy.

Because the UK-France alliance articles specified that "If an aggressor attacks any country that is an ally of France, the UK and France will be required to go to the defense of that country". Legally, the rest didn't matter, they might've reasons to decline, but legally they were required to. Also France was a global power, as well. The other dominions might not want to go, but as dominions, they would've legally had to go if the UK went. Also no offense, but the other dominions were idiots, thinking that appeasing a dictator will work

Umm, which UK-France Alliance? The one signed after Munich? The Entente cordial didn't say this, and anything involving the League of Nations requiring military action was by 1938 a complete joke and disregarded by all thru precedents of Manchuria, Ethiopia, and China. I don't know of any agreement which required the UK to go to war for the sake of France's allies prior to Germany "anschlussing" Czechoslovakia in early 1939.
 

Khevenhuller

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Because the UK-France alliance articles specified that "If an aggressor attacks any country that is an ally of France, the UK and France will be required to go to the defense of that country". Legally, the rest didn't matter, they might've reasons to decline, but legally they were required to. Also France was a global power, as well. The other dominions might not want to go, but as dominions, they would've legally had to go if the UK went. Also no offense, but the other dominions were idiots, thinking that appeasing a dictator will work


No, there was no legal requirement for the Dominions to fight alongside Britain. This alliance was not agreed until after the Munich agreement, announced by Chamberlain to Parliament on 6 February 1939.

K
 

llib

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Really, do you have any evidence that Yugoslavia was falling out of little entente. Also, the difference was that by the time of Poland, Germany had forts built opposite of Maginot, the west wall, which didn't yet exist. Also France didn't really want to help Poland as they disliked Poland taking Teschen from czechoslovakia, so they didn't have the same motivation
It depends what are we talking about - I'm sure they would have helped against separate Hungarian attack. I have checked the information further, and based on that it looks like sole purpose of Yugoslavian and Romanian diplomacy at this point was to prevent their need to make choice. I.e., even some major military units were deployed on Hungarian borders, to pressure Hungary from attacking Czechoslovakia. However what I also read is that in 1938, Romania changed their constitution and effectively banned any movement of Soviet forces through it's territory.
Realistically, both Yugoslavia and Romania came to conclusion that France is not willing to defend it's eastern allies and even if it would be, it could not, and thus it is not in their interest to get involved in war with Nazi Germany. This effectively meant abandoning the Czechoslovakia, even if it in long term meant catastrophy for both Yugoslavia and Romania.

They were designed to hold for at least 6 months, and even after Anschluss, before Munich, the forts in south Moravia were progressed enough that they could've held at least 2 months. Also even after Anschluss, they still planned to invade Austria and stabilize the front after invading Hungary. And the German tanks were also light tanks until 1939, they were worse than the Czech tanks and also with the occupation of Hungary, Czech would've gottenn more factories and yeah, they did plan to retreat to the Slovakian mountains and the Sudetenland and start guerrilla warfare
I would like to kindly ask for reference to 6 months. Frankly I don't even know what that means - it can't mean individual fortification objects which definitely could be knocked out, and any broader term is more related to being able to resist (fight) rather than holding the fortified lines. If you mean that plans were to allow for resistance of 6 months and fortifications were part of it, then that's something that can make sense. As far as I recall, fortresses were designed to be able to keep fighting in encirclement for one month, and separate heavy objects for two weeks. I have no doubt that it would be possible to break through parts of the line (if not by anything else, mass of smoke and suppressing artillery and air attack fire would force infantry to abandon field fortifications and retreat into bunkers and allow engineers to close in and blow the forts, even if at cost).
I'm sorry but plans to invade Austria in response to German invasion of Czechoslovakia are not realistic and were for the same reason cancelled - Germany would have at very least have sufficient defence forces there.
As for the tanks, 298 light tanks were too little to matter for some grand offensive operations. They were good pieces of kit, but they would not shock and route Germans en masse(they could be very useful for local counterattacks, but that's about it). Largest unit was motomechanized brigade of fast division which had only 98 tanks (ideally, only one of four brigades actually was anywhere close to those numbers). That german tanks were worse in tank-vs-tank action would only matter in clashes of such units, which would be rather rare, and local artillery superiority would be more than enough to counter the advantage.

Anyway in case of war by Munich, the UK would've been required to join and would've probably joined if France was involved and the British navy was massively superior to the Italian or German navy. Still from which source, does it say that Yugoslavia betrayed Czechoslovakia, they never did and where does it say they wouldn't have helped Czech. Evidence? And don't forget that parts of Germany had Czech majorities, Lusatia still has large Czech majority and would've sabotaged Germany in the same way and that the Czechs were highly moralized and even civilian Czechs would've probably created volunteer guards in the Sudetenland against Germany, as many Czechs were highly motivated. A relatively stable stance on Crimea? And lastly, I disagreee that this lesson was learned. They betrayed Poland right after WW2, czechoslovakia in 1968 and Israel in 2014. Sadly the Czech army today is much weaker. We used to spend 30% of our GDP on military. Now it's less than 0.5% and we're not building any new forts against Russia, as I don't believe nato will be really useful as Trump wants to disband it. At least I don't leave in the Baltics, who I believe if Russia invaded, the US would betray them
You know, if UK was all that eager to stand by France, why did it pressure France not to fight?
Maybe the betrayal is bit strong word, maybe abandonment is better. The thinking of Benes was, Little entente (and especially Czechoslovakia) are significant military force. It doesn't make sense for French/Yugoslavian/Romanians to abandon us, because it will just mean in inevitable war whoever will be left will be forced to fight against much greater odds. The thinking of France, Yugoslavia, and Romania was, situation is as it is and the later we get into this mess the better, remember the losses from great war, and maybe miracle will happen and there won't be another war.
Betrayal of Poland after WW2: Poland was not liberated by Western allies, western allies were in no position to do anything about it except for another total war. Far different situation.
In 1968, there was no alliance between Czechoslovakia and west. Frankly I'm happy no war started because now we would be down to sticks and stones (unless we would be freezing to death in nuclear winter or rotting away due to radiation).
Israel 2014 - not sure what you refer to there.
As for NATO, either Trump was manipulative, or he changed his mind, or he doesn't have enough strength, but currently his administration has much better stance on NATO and quite good relevant members of the cabinet. Unless some coup happens, that part looks good, and frankly some pressure to some of the european countries to spend more on military is totally justified.
 

Khevenhuller

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You know, if UK was all that eager to stand by France, why did it pressure France not to fight?

Britain was very keen to stand by France, as long as she did not fight. France was never going to fight without the military support of the British. As I mentioned above, even before Daladier went to London to discuss the crisis with Chamberlain he had been told by Gamelin (army) and Vuillemin (air force) that France could give no material help to the Czechs and the country was not ready to fight Germany. So Daladier arrives in London already pre-armed with the knowledge that France is not able to offer meaningful military resistance. Chamberlain is of the same mind regarding Britain. He has stuffed the Foreign Office with appeasers (Lord Halifax and Rab Butler) and his service chiefs are also telling him that Britain is not ready, primarily in relation to air defence.

i think the primary difference between the two leaders is one of attitude. Daladier finds the situation depressing and is fatalistic whereas Chamberlain sees it as an opportunity to pursue a general settlement that will remove the threat of war. In either event it meant throwing the Czechs under the bus.

K