HOI4 Cornflakes 1.5.2 BETA patch [checksum: f49b]

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a_sophist

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I fully agree with you; if you want to play a historically inaccurate game but with an extremely balanced multiplayer, play Call Of Duty WWII, where you can play with an entire army of African Nazis against another of African Americans.
What is your definition of historically accurate? Most MP games I've seen, and how I model my campaigns in single player, comes down to whether or not the Germans can break the Soviets before a second front is established, with the Japanese doing all they can to occupy the Allied forces and take their resources in Asia, which is pretty historical to me.
 

lihp

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I don't understand what this means. What happens if you build military factories earlier than that?

1. You pay with CIC for consumer good production for MIC you build
2. You need CIC to build MIC. The more CIC you got, the faster and the more MIC you can build

So basically every MIC you build slows down the construction of the next building. Coupled with specific ressource needs you run dry on CIC quite soon when building MIC only like some suggested.
 

lihp

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So new MEFO seems fine then? Right?

Yeah I was reffering to a more balanced approach though where you can get that + fill the rest of the slots with Synthethics and MIC.

Now you need to make some though choices and can't get everything .

Seems you dont see the need to rethink a previosu post, where your estimations are obviously off.

PS: Which tough choices?? Not at all, thats an ok start into the war. Question is if its enough for MP games.
 
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GianpietroU90

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What is your definition of historically accurate? Most MP games I've seen, and how I model my campaigns in single player, comes down to whether or not the Germans can break the Soviets before a second front is established, with the Japanese doing all they can to occupy the Allied forces and take their resources in Asia, which is pretty historical to me.
in a multiplayer game the players, myself included, try to do what they want and that most enjoy them, like trying to conquer the world with Luxembourg. In the sp matches it does not make sense for Nepal to have "real" chances against the major powers. I think therefore that those who criticize Mefo do so from a point of view of the MP rather than from a point of view of the sustainability of sp.
 

Alex_brunius

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PS: Which tough choices??

These ones:

Uhmm others play the game differently than you.

Or more specifically the one I am thinking about: do you spam CIC or start earlier with the MIC to try to win quickly early 1939 vs Poland/France and 1940 vs Soviet.

In an MP game where for example the Soviet player built nothing but CIC until 1940 I suspect crushing them would be quite easy if you went for MIC fairly early as Germany and build up a strong army early.
 

a_sophist

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in a multiplayer game the players, myself included, try to do what they want and that most enjoy them, like trying to conquer the world with Luxembourg. In the sp matches it does not make sense for Nepal to have "real" chances against the major powers. I think therefore that those who criticize Mefo do so from a point of view of the MP rather than from a point of view of the sustainability of sp.
No rules MP games are inherently a crapshoot dictated by the capriciousness of the players, and balance decisions are largely irrelevant because of it. MEFO's power doesn't matter much when the IJN can rebase in Germany and do Sea Lion '36 and the US goes fascist.

I agree with you that Nepal and similarly small countries should have no serious chances in SP, or any mode for that matter, but I fail to see how SP is made worse by anything suggested in this thread. If the concern is the German AI, it only stands a chance when the player takes a completely hands off approach anyway.
 
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Telenil

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1. You pay with CIC for consumer good production for MIC you build
2. You need CIC to build MIC. The more CIC you got, the faster and the more MIC you can build

So basically every MIC you build slows down the construction of the next building. Coupled with specific ressource needs you run dry on CIC quite soon when building MIC only like some suggested.
Makes sense. Still, you're going to build military factories sooner or later. Let's assume you build no MIL whatsoever until the war starts, at which point the bills become free: that's still +20% to your supercharged industry. Doesn't that make it worth paying the PP?
I don't play MP at all (and not much Germany for that matters), this is a honest question.
 

lihp

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Or more specifically the one I am thinking about: do you spam CIC or start earlier with the MIC to try to win quickly early 1939 vs Poland/France and 1940 vs Soviet.

Err thats 72 divs at 20 width with arty, pac, AA and 2 frotnline arty. As well as 4 LARM divs bound to become MARM divs + MOT div, with 4 LARM completed in queue and 7 more MOTs in qeue. That was a smooth Poland in 8 days coupled with 3K+ fighters and 600 CAS and other stuff.

Thats fully ok for Poland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, while building and deploying MARMs mainly for SU, but also to blitz France. The CIC are plain there to spam refineries, infrastructure and MIC during war. So I can deploy more strogn units close to Soviet border due to better supply by infrastructure.

You need CIC to do that.

No tough choice here.

In an MP game where for example the Soviet player built nothing but CIC until 1940 I suspect crushing them would be quite easy if you went for MIC fairly early as Germany and build up a strong army early.
Yes you are right this wouldnt work for SU.
 

GianpietroU90

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No rules MP games are inherently a crapshoot dictated by the capriciousness of the players, and balance decisions are largely irrelevant because of it. MEFO's power doesn't matter much when the IJN can rebase in Germany and do Sea Lion '36 and the US goes fascist.

I agree with you that Nepal and similarly small countries should have no serious chances in SP, or any mode for that matter, but I fail to see how SP is made worse by anything suggested in this thread. If the concern if the German AI, it only stands a chance when the player takes a completely hands off approach anyway.
Can we both agree that (historically) a Germany without industrial strength would not be able to stand comparison with other countries and therefore would "implode" the game? I think the MEFOs were exaggeratedly generous; reducing them to 10/15% can be an optimal idea, together with an increase in their cost. But I repeat that historically speaking, Germany did not start its "Der Totalen Krieg", before 1943 when most of the industries continued to produce consumer goods like cars! And if you think about this, compared to the effort of Russian or English industry it's almost unbelievable!
 

lihp

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Makes sense. Still, you're going to build military factories sooner or later. Let's assume you build no MIL whatsoever until the war starts, at which point the bills become free: that's still +20% to your supercharged industry. Doesn't that make it worth paying the PP?
I don't play MP at all (and not much Germany for that matters), this is a honest question.

The MEFO are not free then but plain disabled - gone once the war starts.

Thats why there is only a small time window in which you can use those MEFO bills. But for the cost of the MEFOs you can instead juggle with research and military staff and boost your units to no end. Which in return reduces losses by having more effective units.

As of now the current beta MEFOs plain delay the "getting to speed". By exactly 65 days. So the player is actually debuffed compared to before (without MEFOs).
 

lihp

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Don't you read your own posts?

"others play the game differently than you."

I am sorry. I plain disregarded casual playstyles without any means of optimizations. And that part where you apparently consider 150 CIC as way too much was explicitly addressed to you.
 

a_sophist

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Can we both agree that (historically) a Germany without industrial strength would not be able to stand comparison with other countries and therefore would "implode" the game? I think the MEFOs were exaggeratedly generous; reducing them to 10/15% can be an optimal idea, together with an increase in their cost. But I repeat that historically speaking, Germany did not start its "Der Totalen Krieg", before 1943 when most of the industries continued to produce consumer goods like cars! And if you think about this, compared to the effort of Russian or English industry it's almost unbelievable!

Yes, for now I'd be in favor of simply lowering the consumer goods from 20, and see how games play out from there.
 

Telenil

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The MEFO are not free then but plain disabled - gone once the war starts.

Thats why there is only a small time window in which you can use those MEFO bills. But for the cost of the MEFOs you can instead juggle with research and military staff and boost your units to no end. Which in return reduces losses by having more effective units.
Aaah, that makes a lot more sense now! I don't know why I had in mind that they continued during the war. Thanks =)
 

richfed

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Well I heard tell that the MEFO was changed dramatically. It sounded like the intent was to "incentive" Germany using its MEFO period to build as many military factories as possible, i.e., more in line with actual history. But if the actual productive number of CIC left over after consumer goods are taken care of is only 12 then that is automatically a major nerf, which MIGHT require an alternate strategy of some sort or MIGHT just simply be NOT plausible and unfun. Now I'm glad I'm back with 1.5.1. I did have the 1.5.2 beta installed but reverted to 1.5.1 prior to the most recent update to the beta.

Yes, it is. I went back to beta -- figured playing 1.5.1 was going to have to end sooner-or-later - so, I'm trying to figure it out. Pretty much has caused me to have to change just about every aspect of how I play. Stayed up all night. Left the game in late '38, I think it was. Speed bonus are kicking in, but I am doubtful I'll be ready for war and my political power is badly suffering. It's different, I'll say that.
 

lihp

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Yes, it is. I went back to beta -- figured playing 1.5.1 was going to have to end sooner-or-later - so, I'm trying to figure it out. Pretty much has caused me to have to change just about every aspect of how I play. Stayed up all night. Left the game in late '38, I think it was. Speed bonus are kicking in, but I am doubtful I'll be ready for war and my political power is badly suffering. It's different, I'll say that.

Save the game and do the same without paying MEFOs. This also changes the game completely to 1.5.1 - its more like pre-Cornflakes but with a slight debuff.
 

Wintermist

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Soviet AI, while being helped by the change in Reinforcement priority a lot, still suffers the same fate every game due to not being able to manage their industry well. I saw it spamming shipyards even though what they need is MIC in droves. Perhaps you could take a look at their build priority to figure out what is going?
 

Anthropoid

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Beethoven

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To me it's likley that the intention of the MEFO never was to let Germany build 150 CIC before Danzig... so I doubt this will be reverted.

Let's instead be constructive and discuss how big of a bonus to MIC construction that would be needed to make it worthwhile? Maybe it should also have a bonus to Synthetic Refineries?

Would +30% to MIC and Synthetic construction make it feel worthwile?

If it were something like a +50% to 80% bonus to MIC construction and a +20% bonus to refinery construction, then it could maybe be worthwhile. While that may sound extreme, I think you would need the bonus to be around as large as that for early mils to be reasonably viable in competitive multiplayer games.

By contrast, the consumer goods modifier of -20% that was formerly in the MEFO bills had a bigger impact than the headline number would indicate, because it snowballs.

The thing that is important to remember about the + construction speed modifiers is that they are additive, and hence have less of an impact than the headline number would indicate. In practice, for example, a +50% bonus to MIC construction speed actually only amounts to (for example) a 34% bonus in 1939 (with construction 1 to 3 providing 30% and free trade providing 15%), then the 50% bonus only increases you from 145% to 195%, which is only 34% faster.

With something like a bonus of that magnitude, MEFO could be worthwhile, with Germany building probably 2-3 years of civs, and then starting a mix of refineries and mils.



Now that I think of it, a better way to do MEFO bills with the intent to actually encourage Germany to make mils would probably be the following -

Make mils not count towards Germany's consumer goods requirement (in the same way that dockyards don't count towards consumer goods for every other country). The typical formula for consumer goods is based on the total # of civilian factories plus the total # of military factories.

Currently, a large part of the reason why no good Germany player will build mils in 1936 (and usually not in '37 and very often not even in '38) is that the consumer goods requirement (in addition to the requirement to use civs to import resources) snowballs against Germany, whereas if Germany builds civs, the civ construction snowballs in favor of Germany.





What could you possibly gain from destroying dockyards?

Build slots. In vanilla, there are many countries for whom it makes sense to delete your dockyards, and even sometimes to do dockyard focuses to get extra build slots, just so that then you can delete the dockyards. Examples of this are Romania, South Africa, etc. Even in the case of Germany, which has many more build slots, it may make sense to delete the dockyards that are in level 10 infra areas, so that you have more level 10 infra to build civs in.
 
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