Hoi4 bug

[SophieX]

I can told you than yes. Total was created by the french government in 1924 to take the petrol from Irak Kuweit and Danish and they put pression for the tibetan petrol. Total was the third major in this era just after UK and USAé Urss was 4th...

I think we both are talking about two different things.
My statement eas about the ranking of oil, crude- oil to be more precise.
Your statement, I quoted, is about oil-processing-factories -> "fuelmaker".

The problem in those times was to get oil; and NOT to make fuel, when you have oil.

In reality the Axis had the big problem to get oil; and this is mirrored in the game quite well.
To produce enough and different types of fuel for tanks, cars, planes, ships etc. was not a big problem, provided you have enough oil.

 

[Christiane]

I think we both are talking about two different things.
My statement eas about the ranking of oil, crude- oil to be more precise.
Your statement, I quoted, is about oil-processing-factories -> "fuelmaker".

The problem in those times was to get oil; and NOT to make fuel, when you have oil.

In reality the Axis had the big problem to get oil; and this is mirrored in the game quite well.
To produce enough and different types of fuel for tanks, cars, planes, ships etc. was not a big problem, provided you have enough oil.

No. Total the french compagny of petrol start to extract petrol from turkish, romania and Iraq in 1924 with the permission of Widrow Wilson and UK government. They builded fleet and refineries after. It's the end of WW1. The victory is a result of one things: industrialisation. You cannot build industry without petrol at this moment. France made so much diplomacy to have her part of petrol to be sure to keep away germany and any other country who want to attack them. USA and UK accepted. They saw the occasion in WW2 to denied this decision. It's the reason why the 2 english speaking country buils some trap under the path of France. But that was covered because it's not politics. Politics is always public and the trap was cover operation. You see what i mean? When we speak the same language the business is easier. They force France to speak english in most of their words today.

You know if the game turn around the industrialisation with the petrol as base of the possibility to build industry, all the game become logical and playable because it's less random and more simplex equation. Infinity of possibility a clear starting line and impredicable result. And still exciting complexity of a Paradox game....

 

[SophieX]

You know if the game turn around the industrialisation with the petrol as base of the possibility to build industry, all the game become logical and playable because it's less random and more simplex equation.

Just to make it clear: Oil is the raw-material. Petrol ( or fuel ) is the product of a process by refining oil.


To get petrol the are two ways: You can buy petrol or you can buy oil and refine it to petrol; or use your own oil to do so.
Same for steel as an example: You can buy steel or you can buy iron-ore and produce steel; or use your own iron to do so.

To mirror all aspects of indsustry ( inner-politics, diplomacy etc... ) in a wargame like HOI4 you will face the problem of a to high game-complexity.
Therefor you have to make compromises.
In this game the compromise is, when you have oil, then you have ( automaticly ) petrol.

In my opinion this abstraction is good enough, because the importance of oil for thoese times is not reduced.

The need of petrol-factories is mirrored by the fact of civilian-factories which are used for "consumer-goods" and they are not "available" for the player.

-----------------------
What could be easily done: increasing the amount of civilian factories for "consumer-goods", when there is more fuel-consumption due to more tanks, ships....etc.

 

[Christiane]

Just to make it clear: Oil is the raw-material. Petrol ( or fuel ) is the product of a process by refining oil.


To get petrol the are two ways: You can buy petrol or you can buy oil and refine it to petrol; or use your own oil to do so.
Same for steel as an example: You can buy steel or you can buy iron-ore and produce steel; or use your own iron to do so.

To mirror all aspects of indsustry ( inner-politics, diplomacy etc... ) in a wargame like HOI4 you will face the problem of a to high game-complexity.
Therefor you have to make compromises.
In this game the compromise is, when you have oil, then you have ( automaticly ) petrol.

In my opinion this abstraction is good enough, because the importance of oil for thoese times is not reduced.

The need of petrol-factories is mirrored by the fact of civilian-factories which are used for "consumer-goods" and they are not "available" for the player.

-----------------------
What could be easily done: increasing the amount of civilian factories for "consumer-goods", when there is more fuel-consumption due to more tanks, ships....etc.

Ok. I'm sorry. I'm french and for me oil and petrol is the same. I agree concerning oil. My point is France should have oil at the beginning of the game. Theyy was one of the fourth owner of the oil of the world. They knew that was the base of their power. The game don't reflect that. Germany and Italy and also Japan made war just to have more oil and industry. If they let it like it was all industry in the world can be from USA.UK and France. That's the deepest reason of WW2,

You correct that and you will get a fantastic HOI. Imagine you can have opponents of the war who don't want to use oil to build industry in every country, You can input insecurity for house or money. You see what i mean?

 

[SophieX]

Ok. I'm sorry. I'm french and for me oil and petrol is the same.

No problem, pas de problème, kein Problem

My point is France should have oil at the beginning of the game. Theyy was one of the fourth owner of the oil of the world.

Did France really was the 4th owner ( propriétaire de puits de pétrole ) of the worlds oil?
I could agree, if you say, France was the 4th big user ( importarteur et utilisateur ) of the worlds oil.

 

[Christiane]

No problem, pas de problème, kein Problem



Did France really was the 4th owner ( propriétaire de puits de pétrole ) of the worlds oil?
I could agree, if you say, France was the 4th big user ( importarteur et utilisateur ) of the worlds oil.

Yes they was. I saw all documents sign by Clemenceau and Poincaré. Also letter from Widrow Wilson of USA. France was in the clan of winners of WW1. They knew what give them victory: Crude oil. And they focus on that just after the WW1. WW2 have no other reason than the industrfial domination and you need crude oil tro do it. France (like Belgium) bought all crude oil concession in Romania and in Turkish (They was allied to Austria in WW1 so their ressources was cheaper for the winners)

 

[Mister Analyst]

EDIT:removed unknown, irrelevant phrase

Yes they was. I saw all documents sign by Clemenceau and Poincaré. Also letter from Widrow Wilson of USA. France was in the clan of winners of WW1. They knew what give them victory: Crude oil. And they focus on that just after the WW1. WW2 have no other reason than the industrfial domination and you need crude oil tro do it. France (like Belgium) bought all crude oil concession in Romania and in Turkish (They was allied to Austria in WW1 so their ressources was cheaper for the winners)

The document shown by @billcorr clearly shows that France was not the number 4 producer of the world's oil. Reference forum thread crude petroleum and petroleum products spoiler.

 

[SophieX]

France (like Belgium) bought all crude oil concession in Romania and in Turkish

We come closer....

Buying a concession means: I can use this oil. But it does not mean, I am the new owner of this oil-well ( puits de pétrol ).

I'm sure you will see the difference.

 

[billcorr]

This is an important thread.

The OP describes ways that the game could be considered "unfriendly" to new gamers. (see OP's questions and dilemmas regarding gameplay).


Continuing to obtain feedback from customers who are brand-new to Paradox games could help make the game easier to learn.

Lower the "entry fee", so to speak and ...

increase sales.

 

[Christiane]

We come closer....

Buying a concession means: I can use this oil. But it does not mean, I am the new owner of this oil-well ( puits de pétrol ).

I'm sure you will see the difference.

La géopolitique du pétrole prend une autre dimension avec la Première Guerre mondiale. La mécanisation des armées fait de l’approvisionnement en pétrole des belligérants un enjeu majeur. La France dépend ainsi des Américains et des Britanniques avec la Standard Oil et la Royal Dutch Shell. C'est dans ce contexte que le 16 mars 1918, le gouvernement français instaure un monopole des importations de pétrole, les raffineurs français gardant uniquement leur autonomie au niveau de la distribution. Le président de la République Raymond Poincaré veut développer l'indépendance énergétique française en créant une société pétrolière nationale. Il s'appuie alors sur la conférence franco-britannique de San Remo en 1920 qui accorde un contrôle britannique permanent de toutes les compagnies établies afin de développer le pétrole mésopotamien, mais le président du Conseil Georges Clemenceau réclame et obtient comme dommage de guerre les 25 % que détient la Deutsche Bank dans la Turkish Petroleum Company (la TPC, future compagnie pétrolière irakienne, l'Iraq Petroleum Company). L

That's from Wikipedia. Do you think French didn't know how they won WW1? You think they didn't take precaution for the future? You think it's only UK who done it? If it wasn't the case, Germany didn't have reason to attack France Belgium and Netherland. Why attack country who don't have crude oil and can't have motorised army?

 

[Mister Analyst]

If it wasn't the case, Germany didn't have reason to attack France Belgium and Netherland. Why attack country who don't have crude oil and can't have motorised army?

It seems to me that France was the one that declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.

It seems more like a matter of French national pride and France containing Hitler's aggression. It was not about Germany's desire for French crude oil.

 

[Christiane]

It seems to me that France was the one that declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.

It seems more like a matter of French national pride and France containing Hitler's aggression. It was not about Germany's desire for French crude oil.

If France don't have crude oil why Germany have to take care? They didn't care about Italy, Bulgaria. If France don't have crude oil Germany will have no concern about a possible reaction. The France army can't go inside the frontier if they don't have oil for move tank and truck. In 1939 the best tank was the somua from France and he need oil to move...

France support the biggest weight or WW1 and they didn't want to go in WW2. But they try to limited the Germany because they didn't want to go there. So you have three movement in France. Blum who say peace first but in the respect of traites. Pierre Laval who want to help his best friend Herman Goring and the others who want to jump in Germany (or on i'm a little bit confuse about the right words in english. It's easier in french)

Don't forget than Hitler invade sudete and create anschluss. If some one talk to all other and say 'i will punch you' do you will think than this guy is gentle for you? It's not national pride who bring France to declare war after invasion of Poland. UK have different interest and they declare war also...And the plan of Hitler (because the plan to turn off the maginot line was from Hitler not Von Manstein even if this guy was a genius. Von Manstein meet Hitler only after the plan was adopted) was adopted before France declare war. The ultimate goal of Hitler was URSS and he hope a long time than France and UK will accept than germany take the crude oil of URSS. But...And you know the rest...

 

[Christiane]

In this screen shot i see UK division who left from egypt after USA gone there and the Italy create encirclement. I don't understand why UK division left UK territories and i don't know where they go, How i can control that? AI have a very strange behavior.

 

[Christiane]

This picture was took before the other i just put on the site. Suddendly i have no control, i can't choose the best way to go on the front line and i have no idea how to regain control and specify to the american general to don't put all is egg at the seme place, take care of your supply lines. No general run in front of him like a private without trainning. A trainned private have more brain than that...

 

[Archerich]

I'm going to say this one last time. Please stop blaming the game. Yes the AI isn't great, but you have barely any equipment. Also the message bar shows me that you're neglecting convoys, air force, and resources. Please play a minor or the tutorial, as even though it isn't great it is better than any help we could give you because we cannot understand what you need to do for you for the rest of time. This thread has been up for days and it keeps reverting back to either complaining about the historical accuracy of the game or a historical debate.

You don't have supply because your navy is not protecting your supply.

Please play the tutorial if you haven't already, and maybe watch a video or two that explain mechanics.

 

[Mister Analyst]

If France don't have crude oil why Germany have to take care? They didn't care about Italy, Bulgaria. If France don't have crude oil Germany will have no concern about a possible reaction. The France army can't go inside the frontier if they don't have oil for move tank and truck. In 1939 the best tank was the somua from France and he need oil to move...

France support the biggest weight or WW1 and they didn't want to go in WW2. But they try to limited the Germany because they didn't want to go there. So you have three movement in France. Blum who say peace first but in the respect of traites. Pierre Laval who want to help his best friend Herman Goring and the others who want to jump in Germany (or on i'm a little bit confuse about the right words in english. It's easier in french)

Don't forget than Hitler invade sudete and create anschluss. If some one talk to all other and say 'i will punch you' do you will think than this guy is gentle for you? It's not national pride who bring France to declare war after invasion of Poland. UK have different interest and they declare war also...And the plan of Hitler (because the plan to turn off the maginot line was from Hitler not Von Manstein even if this guy was a genius. Von Manstein meet Hitler only after the plan was adopted) was adopted before France declare war. The ultimate goal of Hitler was URSS and he hope a long time than France and UK will accept than germany take the crude oil of URSS. But...And you know the rest...

I agree with most of your comment.

But why did you ignore my comment about "France containing Hitler's aggression?" And why did you ignore my comment "It was not about Germany's desire for French crude oil?" And why did you ignore my earlier comment about France declaring war on Germany?"

Germany did have a desire for oil. Romanian oil and USSR oil; not French oil.

Germany was aggressive by ignoring the Treaty of Versailles (occupation of the Rhineland, exceeding limits on military buildup, invading neighboring countries, etc). France rightly declared war on Germany.

Do you acknowledge these facts or do you still want to argue?

 

[Christiane]

I'm going to say this one last time. Please stop blaming the game. Yes the AI isn't great, but you have barely any equipment. Also the message bar shows me that you're neglecting convoys, air force, and resources. Please play a minor or the tutorial, as even though it isn't great it is better than any help we could give you because we cannot understand what you need to do for you for the rest of time. This thread has been up for days and it keeps reverting back to either complaining about the historical accuracy of the game or a historical debate.

You don't have supply because your navy is not protecting your supply.

Please play the tutorial if you haven't already, and maybe watch a video or two that explain mechanics.

Why i should take care of my convoy? I have more than 1K convoy first. Mediterranean see is a UK see. No fleet can challenge UK in mediterranenan at this time. I have absolutely no possibility to manage a base in mediterranean at all.

If you don't see than this thread will give a friendly user game whi will generate better sales for Paradox because the game will be easier to understand with the same (or better) complexity stop answer. For me it's not a problem. You have a solution? Show it and explain who to get it and paradox will make it easily accessible for new player and that will increase the sales. For the moment i don't see how to control the intelligence of the general i send there. He land in a port, leave the port attack italian who retrat and taking the port and general reac as "all is ok" Hey boy! Are you brainless? (the general not you) If i play i shouldn't have to think to all littler details like that. In my life i already do it every minute for the 2 or three business i manage. That will stop to be a game no?

 

[Archerich]

Why i should take care of my convoy? I have more than 1K convoy first. Mediterranean see is a UK see. No fleet can challenge UK in mediterranenan at this time. I have absolutely no possibility to manage a base in mediterranean at all.

If not then you can't get supply. Also if you're having problems with battle planning then don't, micro instead. Micromanaging is extremely important to a successful game. And no, it doesn't matter if "no one" could challenge the UK navy, the 3rd-4th largest navy of the war, because the AI doesn't give a care about protecting your convoys, and also the Italians control the Suez, so Gibraltar is the only place the UK or you can enter from. The Italians, if you have noticed, 99% of the time have a large navy, sometimes larger than that of the UK.

 

[Christiane]

If not then you can't get supply. Also if you're having problems with battle planning then don't, micro instead. Micromanaging is extremely important to a successful game. And no, it doesn't matter if "no one" could challenge the UK navy, the 3rd-4th largest navy of the war, because the AI doesn't give a care about protecting your convoys, and also the Italians control the Suez, so Gibraltar is the only place the UK or you can enter from. The Italians, if you have noticed, 99% of the time have a large navy, sometimes larger than that of the UK.

It was impossible at this moment. Italy didn't have radar and it's why the Italian Navy stay in port of Tarento where the UK sink them like Yamamot will do at Pearl Harbor. Also the main war in WW2 is for industrialisation. Italy was unable to produce enough tank to win in North Africa. Rommel admit than his main problem wasn't Montgomery but supply. Also if you are at the command of Italy like i done as human you can't build a fleet in the right time. AI have some ressources unaccesible for the player human. That can cause a reaction "forgot this game i can't do nothings without cheat code and it don't have useful one." It's a game. If you don't have a minimum of control is not good. If you have to move arms and legs of anyone in the game you don't have fun either.

 

[Christiane]

Here you have the 4th army of France who should defend Italian frontier but stay in peace until i told her Italain was there. Of course Italian are stronger than they was in 1939 because France must loose. Why the general don't understand the concept of defend the country? Private do...