HOI4 Battles Too Fast?

[Invictus5966]

What about my other point that everyone is ignoring? That Japan took almost the entire Chinese coast before the end of SEP 1938. And completely conquered China by the end of 1939.

China had help in the real world as well. We don't know what happened this time. I think there could be "some" balance issues in this old build

However, given how fast his German conquest was of SU and likewise his conquests of Austria and Yugoslavia as Hungary, I'd attribute it toward battle and movement speed. And especially, another thing people are forgetting, is how fast he invaded into Germany and CAPTURED their capital! How can this insignificant minor, with infantry only troops, beat back Germany! If you say "they were occupied by France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Denmark" I'd say that's no excuse. Neither Denmark nor Netherlands nor Belgium should be able to push a small line of Germany divisions.

Hungary only began to collapse after Italy pushed through. So in summary, a tiny minor with infantry only troops, no anti tank, artillery, etc. captured Berlin..

Germany might have had more time to react/reposition troops if the troops didn't advance so quickly.

Or maybe this is just an AI priorities problem, or maybe Germany needs a buff, I can't really pinpoint the issue. The point is.. I hope by launch, you can't be at War vs UK, France, Italy, and Germany, and actually capture Berlin with an army comprised solely of infantry as a minor nation

Don't forget Germany had little to no troops on that front and most of his armies were attacking the Low land countries and France. Add to that that this was historical mode and AI Germany probably wasn't expecting Hungry to attack. Hell even the Italians kicked the hell out of them and Italian troops hasn't had the best support in these forums

 

[Zaku]

I think what he means is that because the battles in WWW (even with just pure infantry) have very low casualties, thus making manpower look more plentiful then reality.
I mean sure, against Romania casualties did start to get relatively high but still

I wouldn't make assumptions based on that because the game is still in beta, and they have said many times that the values are not final. You can see the balancing in progress even in between episodes. Hungary facerolled Austria, Cze, and Yugo, but next episode when they balanced it a bit Romania was already a harder nut to crack, especially if we consider how much stronger Hungary was at that stage than Romania.

 

[Invictus5966]

4 counties, not 3. How quickly people forget czechoslovakia.

I actually forgot about Austria.

 

[General WVPM]

While manpower does not replenish and is limited to a certain amount, that amount is so high (millions) that even small countries can fight massive wars, the invasion of romania for example costs ~150k, invading germany maybe 600k, you could probably still invade france after that manpower wise (as in techs and production left out of the equation).

In real life, even major nations required allies to build a large enough army.

Besides all of that, the negative side effects of the manpower laws seem rather minor, while production nerfs are painfull, training time is not, since raw recruits can learn ad hoc quite well.

My suggestion would be to nerf national unity if you choose to mobilize a large portion of your population.
If you are scraping the barrel, people should realize the war is not going well and there would probably be problems at home due to the lack of (young working) men.
Besides that, if you have mobilized so many men and still you are losing important cities, maybe the war is lost and thus a peace should be signed?

Also I'd highly recommend adding dissent for having other cores in your provinces or lacking a core of your own.

 

[ComradeCommissar]

In the WWW Hungary campaign, Daniel struck against 2 neighbours in 1936/37 who were ill prepared for war and certainly not expecting it. He literally blitzed deep into their country before they even had time to mobilise properly. In this way he walked over them and gained an empire. But it is was noteworthy that on his third invasion - Romania, matters went less well against a better prepared foe and the struggle took longer with far more effort. And when he ultimately hit Germany he was throwing hail Marys and was very decisively defeated. His army and his empire collapsed very rapidly indeed, again, because the two strengths of the two opposing forces were so disparate. By the time he was destroyed it was late 1939 (or it might have even been verging on 1940?). Which is a respectable span of time for what he achieved - then suddenly lost.

In short, do not be too alarmed yet.

He wasn't exactly destroyed. While, sure, he was overextended, his front with Germany was stable for the most part except for the east and north, which were large German salients which easily could have been cut off. The Italian front in Croatia was green, both in divisions and battle indicators and once again it was another salient (this time Italians) which could've been exploited to pin the Italians against the coast.

Unless we were watching a different stream I didn't see Daniel's empire collapse and the enemies reach Budapest and Vienna (unless it was after the stream in his twitter, in which case i wouldnt have seen it). At that point too, we shouldn't ignore Daniel's tactics. Just one big blob of troops aimed at one single province.

So no, he wasn't decisively defeated in any way. His army was still putting up significant resistance and deep in German territory. There was significant prospect for success, he just couldn't seize it due to being rushed and forced to play it without his input.

 

[Invictus5966]

He wasn't exactly destroyed. While, sure, he was overextended, his front with Germany was stable for the most part except for the east and north, which were large German salients which easily could have been cut off. The Italian front in Croatia was green, both in divisions and battle indicators and once again it was another salient (this time Italians) which could've been exploited to pin the Italians against the coast.

Unless we were watching a different stream I didn't see Daniel's empire collapse and the enemies reach Budapest and Vienna (unless it was after the stream in his twitter, in which case i wouldnt have seen it). At that point too, we shouldn't ignore Daniel's tactics. Just one big blob of troops aimed at one single province.

So no, he wasn't decisively defeated in any way. His army was still putting up significant resistance and deep in German territory. There was significant prospect for success, he just couldn't seize it due to being rushed and forced to play it without his input.

The stream ended before the final crunch. He had troops running in the middle of his country he couldn't stop and the Italians were about to break his lines.

 

[Nicolas I]

The stream ended before the final crunch. He had troops running in the middle of his country he couldn't stop and the Italians were about to break his lines.

Yes, at 59,45 Daniel answered to Jake about Hungary (himself) fate "They probably gonna die anytime soon".

 

[Midden]

From what I have seen, the battles don't seem too fast. However, I do think the troops do move too fast. Also, the Strategic redeployment speed looked insanely fast to me.

Taken as a whole from the Hungary WWW, the game looks good and fun for minors. It is probably a good thing for the game that most neighboring countries are ill prepared and your first 1936 opponent can be rolled over, so you can get something. In the era it is viable that if your country wasn't mobilized you could get rolled. It seemed that the Game ramped up to deal with Hungary's aggression, Daniel contributed massively to the increase in world tension, and seeing the AI guarantee countries and, form alliances looked good. Countries with prepared military seemed a tougher nut to crack in the later battles.

 

[ComradeCommissar]

The stream ended before the final crunch. He had troops running in the middle of his country he couldn't stop and the Italians were about to break his lines.

Again, as I said, he was still holding them off and doing well, even with green troops. Think what would've happened if he reinforced the area after shortening his lines with a few decisive moves that I mentioned. The Italians could concentrate their force on a short line but not on a long one and they left gaps everywhere.

 

[Nicolas I]

Again, as I said, he was still holding them off and doing well, even with green troops. Think what would've happened if he reinforced the area after shortening his lines with a few decisive moves that I mentioned. The Italians could concentrate their force on a short line but not on a long one and they left gaps everywhere.

Hitler also thought until the near end the war was not lost and that with a brilliant move he would win...

As Daniel himself admitted that he was "gonna die anytime soon" (at 59,45). It seems you think you could do better than him. I would be curious to see you playing against him !

 

[General WVPM]

Hitler also thought until the near end the war was not lost and that with a brilliant move he would win...

As Daniel himself admitted that he was "gonna die anytime soon" (at 59,45). It seems you think you could do better than him. I would be curious to see you playing against him !

Keep in mind that Daniel was at war with the allies and italy, if they wouldn't be in the war against him, he probably couldve beaten germany.

 

[Invictus5966]

Keep in mind that Daniel was at war with the allies and italy, if they wouldn't be in the war against him, he probably couldve beaten germany.

The allies weren't really bothering him that much. Thought I saw him pull all the invasion garrison off to fight the Italians.

Again, as I said, he was still holding them off and doing well, even with green troops. Think what would've happened if he reinforced the area after shortening his lines with a few decisive moves that I mentioned. The Italians could concentrate their force on a short line but not on a long one and they left gaps everywhere.

Doing well is very subjective. He was being pushed back on all fronts. Daniel did put in green troops and 1 German division was beating all of them almost reaching his capital.

 

[ComradeCommissar]

Hitler also thought until the near end the war was not lost and that with a brilliant move he would win...

As Daniel himself admitted that he was "gonna die anytime soon" (at 59,45). It seems you think you could do better than him. I would be curious to see you playing against him !

It's very hard to do worse when you're forced to rush for time, not micro your troops nearly enough and, at the end, just not react to anything at all and let things play out without ANY reaction. Once again, I never saw any troops marching through Budapest, indeed I saw Hungarians in Berlin.. and the Germans dangerously extended in 2 places. Hungary was still going strong and was gaining ground against Italian advances in Croatia/Bosnia near the end of the stream.

Stalin nearly moved to Kuybyshev near the Moscow counteroffensive in preparation for thinking everything west of Moscow was lost. But of course we saw how wrong that was.

 

[Invictus5966]

Going strong watch it from min 55 to 59....
That is anything but strong

 

[rjohansen]

I find it strange that so many people are "defending" the Hungary stream and coming up with excuses to how this and that might happen. In my opinion, that stream was a massive failure, most of the stuff Hungary did, should have consequences. However it didn't. So to me it seems possible to conquer the world with a small country as Hungary.... Especially if he had shown more patience - in my opinion that should NEVER be possible to do with a minor. Hungary conquering just Romania or Yugoslavia should be a MASSIVE task for a country like that, a war that would last years perhaps. But with almost just infantry he rolled on and conquered nation after nation...

However. More on topic. Battles both last TOO LONG and TOO SHORT in my opinion. Sometimes battles should be won immediately, looser just fleeing from superior enemy, other times it could and should last for months. I mean there was battles that lasted 5-6 months in real life during WW2. With the tactic Hungary chose in the stream, some of the battles in that stream should resemble more of WW1 and perhaps last even longer than 5-6 months - Verdun lasted almost a year. Also sieges are missing from this game (and always has).

 

[Invader_Canuck]

Hungary conquered 3 nations and when went to war with germany they invaded huge pieces of german soil, they even reached and took berlin...

the fact that after they started losing everything is beside the point...


hungary could have never invaded germany and reached Berlin, it's absurd... but they did it without any tanks, mechs, or proper airforce... they did it just with underequipped infantry...

I actually disagree with this.

Had Hungary invaded Germany while Germany was busy invading France, it would have been a MASSIVE problem for Germany initially. The question isn't would Hungary have made impressive gains. Of course they would have. The question is, would Hungary behave in a largely suicidal manner, because despite making gains initially, unless something crazy happened, they were going to get crushed sooner rather than later.

 

[ringhloth]

I totally agree, this is sort of ridiculous. In the first WWW Daniel literally deployed 60 divisions in one go. I think that this kind of negates the need to train divisions because they will just "learn on the front". It might be interesting to have a mechanic were any division that has less than 5% EXP will just shatter in combat, much like HQs did in HOI3. This will slow down blobbing of divisions a bit and force the player to spend more time on training.

You burn a lot of manpower and equipment doing this, though. Yeah, if you need that division right now, it'll be a good thing to deploy them early. But if they aren't going to be making the difference between victory and defeat, training in the queue means more equipment and manpower overall, allowing a larger army in the long run.

However. More on topic. Battles both last TOO LONG and TOO SHORT in my opinion. Sometimes battles should be won immediately, looser just fleeing from superior enemy, other times it could and should last for months. I mean there was battles that lasted 5-6 months in real life during WW2. With the tactic Hungary chose in the stream, some of the battles in that stream should resemble more of WW1 and perhaps last even longer than 5-6 months - Verdun lasted almost a year. Also sieges are missing from this game (and always has).

Those 6-12 month battles would be more representative of a slew of battles in HoI, though. The battle of Stalingrad would be represented by a back and forth, with attacks and retreats by both sides in the surrounding provinces, rather than just a static "throw everything you've got" into the battle.

 

[oerbaa]

I find it strange that so many people are "defending" the Hungary stream and coming up with excuses to how this and that might happen. In my opinion, that stream was a massive failure, most of the stuff Hungary did, should have consequences. However it didn't. So to me it seems possible to conquer the world with a small country as Hungary.... Especially if he had shown more patience - in my opinion that should NEVER be possible to do with a minor. Hungary conquering just Romania or Yugoslavia should be a MASSIVE task for a country like that, a war that would last years perhaps. But with almost just infantry he rolled on and conquered nation after nation...

However. More on topic. Battles both last TOO LONG and TOO SHORT in my opinion. Sometimes battles should be won immediately, looser just fleeing from superior enemy, other times it could and should last for months. I mean there was battles that lasted 5-6 months in real life during WW2. With the tactic Hungary chose in the stream, some of the battles in that stream should resemble more of WW1 and perhaps last even longer than 5-6 months - Verdun lasted almost a year. Also sieges are missing from this game (and always has).

Despite your dislikes, I agree with your overall assessment.

This game isn't about conquering the world. That shouldn't be the end goal for any country. It should be the challenge every country faces given its size/situation and location. If its a massive struggle to simply maintain your land from being conquered, then that is all the game will be when playing that nation. And that will still be a lot of fun, which is the purpose of this game.

So his first point is valid. Hungary should never be able to conquer all those nations that easily. They should not be able to fend off naval invasions from France as simply as they did in the stream. The SU should have invaded Hungary after all the tension it caused and wiped them out. Germany should have protected its borders with at least a thin line of troops given how hostile Hungary has been. Etc.

And to put a small point here that people seem to forget so often. The point of all these comments and discussions is to improve the game before launch. To find its issues and report them. Everyone knows this is a beta and that release is still over a month away. Imagine if no one "complained"? We'd all be beta testers after launch. Its good that we get to see gameplay beforehand and discuss the issues we see. Having played hoi3 for hundreds of hours, I eagerly await hoi4 and want it to be better in every important way.

Back to the point: I think you tweaked my initial idea in a better direction. You mentioned that if a division is simply made up of infantry, battles should take months akin to WW1. This makes a lot of sense. Battles would revert to trench warfare if no artillery nor tanks were being used. Thus perhaps battle length can depend on these units being present? Faster battles when tanks, artillery, close air support is present and slower battles when its only infantry and machine guns.

 

[oerbaa]

...and slower battles when its only infantry and machine guns.

...unless you somehow choose the Banzai tactic and rush the enemy, evaporating your manpower.

 

[kosmoface]

@orbaa I can only really comment on a game I have actually played myself. Sorry.

Some weeks ago I bought the Master of Orion Remake. It looked like fun in the Let's Plays. Actually it isn't much fun to play (for me). All I could say now to HOI IV would be wild guessing. If they optimise the game for such comments, then.. ouch.