HOI4 Battles Too Fast?

[linen]

I totally agree, this is sort of ridiculous. In the first WWW Daniel literally deployed 60 divisions in one go. I think that this kind of negates the need to train divisions because they will just "learn on the front". It might be interesting to have a mechanic were any division that has less than 5% EXP will just shatter in combat, much like HQs did in HOI3. This will slow down blobbing of divisions a bit and force the player to spend more time on training.

I don't have much of an issue with sending out untrained and fresh divisions, if you've all the equipment and manpower at the ready then sure; for me it is a question of time. And I agree with you on less than 5% or so should just shatter... Though it should depend on who they are fighting against and who they are fighting with.

That said shattering should still give some exp gain ; D

 

[Himliano]

Is as simple to balance as making INF attacking entrenched INF on a proportion 1:1 be a nightmare. In one of best HOI-experiences I've ever had (HOI2 + Mod34 and then Iron Cross), only way 1 INF defeating 1 INF is out-teching a lot by doctrines or INF level (and loosing a lot of MP in the progress) or fighting an isolated and out of supply INF.

If the current "INF can do anything" keeps going on, nobody will build any other units.

 

[Otto of england]

I'm just going to point out that during the Romania and German wars hungary had artillery, and during the German war he also had tanks and air superiority over the area he advanced the furthest.

More importantly against semi prepared Romania who only had 10 or so military factories he had a 1:1 loss ratio. Now imagine if Romania had enough factories too build fancy equipment, it's likely daniel would have suffered upwards of 1.5:1 losses. Against Germany his loss rate was at least 1:1, but I think it was closer to 2:1.

So keep in mind, preparation > no preparation. That is how Daniel won the first three wars as hungary, his enemies did not have time to prepare. As soon as they did though his advanced slowed and his manpower started getting ground down ridiculously fast. In fact at the end of the stream he was almost empty on manpower, he had expended all of the manpower he gained from doctrines, focuses, and was on all adult serve, a staggering 27% of his population and he had many be 300k left in his pool. Frankly he should have researched hospitals early on, but that would only have reduced his losses by a few percent maybe giving him 450k to work with.

 

[amalric de g.]

I totally agree, this is sort of ridiculous. In the first WWW Daniel literally deployed 60 divisions in one go. I think that this kind of negates the need to train divisions because they will just "learn on the front". It might be interesting to have a mechanic were any division that has less than 5% EXP will just shatter in combat, much like HQs did in HOI3. This will slow down blobbing of divisions a bit and force the player to spend more time on training.

Thats exactly what the SU did against the germans, T34 crews had 72 hours training, or Infantry Divisions got some basic training and off they go to the front. Why should it prohibited in a game about WW2?

If you are in dire need of fresh troops, do it, they get a 50% fighting malus, so you can´t expect them to hold the line against veteran troops.

 

[Scutatus]

Hungary conquered 3 nations and when went to war with germany they invaded huge pieces of german soil, they even reached and took berlin...

the fact that after they started losing everything is beside the point...


hungary could have never invaded germany and reached Berlin, it's absurd... but they did it without any tanks, mechs, or proper airforce... they did it just with underequipped infantry...

Yes. But Germany's strength was deployed in the west and north and had not put much into guarding the south. Daniel THREW ALMOST EVERYTHING HE HAD into his attack into Germany against only a portion of German strength. It was literally a do or die attack, without even reserves. So yes, he punched through Germany's thin southern defence, stormed through central Germany that had almost no defence at all and reached Berlin - but he burnt himself out doing it and then immediately got destroyed when Germany's frontier forces arrived to respond.

In the real world, a national leader with any sense and any sense of trying to keep his nation alive would never have attempted what Daniel did. It only happened because it was a game, it was Daniel playing, and he really didn't care if Hungary lived or died. It died. Just as it should do. So is there really a problem?

 

[yogi86]

Is it possible that a man with nearly 1,000 hours of game time (as Daniel most likely has by now) would be able to conquer large amounts of territory and nations in such a short time? I know in Rome II I can conquer half the map in an extremely short amount of years now that I have around 500+ hours into the game (I usually can beat the entire map in about 8-12 hours.. most of that time preparing to counter already memorized AI tactics). Having said that, in an additional 500+ hours I believe conquering nations would be easy as hell and take less time than most players would imagine possible.

Perhaps the fix for this issue is to watch a player with 20 - 100 hours play Hungary and see the time to conquer. Plus remember they are playing on Normal mode! So Daniel playing on Hard mode would probably have kept him only to Austrian territory. No offense Daniel the Great.

 

[jovialmadness]

Yes, and ?

The first two nations conquered (Austria and Yugoslavia) were very ill prepared, and had few divisions out. Once they got pushed back (their org destroyed), they could never halt the enemy, their countries simply being too small to pull back and set up a new defense line.

Against Romania, he had a significant tougher opponent, they only fell after protracted fighting.


No, i'd call that realistic. He pushed because he had the majority advantage on his front. Once he no longer did, he got pushed back.



You are missing the obvious point here. Germany was at war with the allies. They had taken Poland, were fighting the French / British around the Maginot Line, declared war on the Dutch (or the Belgians, or both, i dont remember), declared war on Denmark and Norway. So their forces were quite busy... and Daniel backstabbed them (friendly relations, alliance request, etc etc).

So Germany started pulling back troops to deal with the situation (and/or deploy new recruits). It took a little bit, but stop him they did. Then they forced him back, and nothing Daniel did could have stopped the German steamroller once it got going. Of course it didn't help Daniel that he at the same time was at war with the allies, and that Italy decided that he looked tasty, having all his men either as invasion defense, or on the front against Germany.

The point being that once Germany started pushing Daniel back, he had neither the manpower or space to push back or even halt the enemy.


As i understand, its being played on "Normal" difficulty.

The time constraints of the video caused Daniel to speed up all kinds of actions he normally would have waited for. Letting Germany get deeper into its conquests, properly securing his borders and not leaving gaps in his line due to rushing to name a few. I mean hell, he had four separate fronts he was fighting all due to being rushed. Id imagine just a little more prep work with not much time invested and he could have at least given the German steam roller a good fight. Maybe even won.

Edit: they were even joking about what if Russia attacked. Thats how comical it was to them.

 

[Mamluke]

I'm just going to point out that during the Romania and German wars hungary had artillery, and during the German war he also had tanks and air superiority over the area he advanced the furthest.

......

when he invaded Romania Daniel DID NOT have Artillery!! you can see in the "logistics" it showed that the army wanted 1200 Pieces of Artillery!! he only started producing it after the fall of Yugoslavia...

I bet those arty battalions didn't even had 1/3rd of their requirements! and yet he conquer Romania in what? 3 - 4 moths?

The time constraints of the video caused Daniel to speed up all kinds of actions he normally would have waited for. Letting Germany get deeper into its conquests, properly securing his borders and not leaving gaps in his line due to rushing to name a few. I mean hell, he had four separate fronts he was fighting all due to being rushed. Id imagine just a little more prep work with not much time invested and he could have at least given the German steam roller a good fight. Maybe even won.

Edit: they were even joking about what if Russia attacked. Thats how comical it was to them.

exactly! the ONLY reason why Daniel got it to such an impossible situation was due to being the last stream and twitch wanted "epic" war with Germany. I mean, you don't need to be good at the game to know being at war with both the Allies AND the Axis (Including ITALY!) is a (very) bad Idea.

it was the last stream... Not to mention DDR jake put even more pressure on him, and wanted to see Daniel fail ( he, I can get that)

 

[JerkyJerry]

HOI4 Battles too fast?

No

 

[Otto of england]

when he invaded Romania Daniel DID NOT have Artillery!! you can see in the "logistics" it showed that the army wanted 1200 Pieces of Artillery!! he only started producing it after the fall of Yugoslavia...

I bet those arty battalions didn't even had 1/3rd of their requirements! and yet he conquer Romania in what? 3 - 4 moths?

1/3 artillery equipment > no artillery. It's also important to note 4 months to advance to Bucharest from Yugoslavia is fairly resonable. That would take maybe a week without combat, so that means there was 3.75 months of combat to Bucharest. With a loss ratio of 1:1 I really don't see anything wrong there. Actually in Hoi3 I can conquer Romania in like two weeks as hungary from the same position on normal difficulty, so if anything that's way better.

 

[Mamluke]

1/3 artillery equipment > no artillery. It's also important to note 4 months to advance to Bucharest from Yugoslavia is fairly resonable. That would take maybe a week without combat, so that means there was 3.75 months of combat to Bucharest. With a loss ratio of 1:1 I really don't see anything wrong there. Actually in Hoi3 I can conquer Romania in like two weeks as hungary from the same position on normal difficulty, so if anything that's way better.

using HOI 3 as an example? you know that is not fair at all, especially against the AI in their Finest hour, the AI minors have no reaction to the world.. never mobilizes, never prepare (the AI sucks at putting effective opposition to begin with.)

 

[Denkt]

No matter what you want the player always have significant advantages over the ai in HOI.

 

[Otto of england]

using HOI 3 as an example? you know that is not fair at all, especially against the AI in their Finest hour, the AI minors have no reaction to the world.. never mobilizes, never prepare (the AI sucks at putting effective opposition to begin with.)

Fair enough, though I still don't think its worth getting too worked up about it yet, as nothing I have seen is particularly concerning.

 

[General WVPM]

First of all Daniel might be experienced, but he had limited time, wasnt allowed to pause much and sometimes had to show off some stuff and he was constantly distracted by ddrjake. The idea that there will be 0 resistance just because a nation isnt in a faction is plain stupid.
The warfare we've seen is basically what the generals thought and hoped ww1 would be; send massive amount of raw recruits towards the enemy and win quickly. The result, immensive losses, minor gains and a total loss of optimism from the people. It was because of this that nations learned troops need training and support and that manpower isnt infinite.
All these lessons have no meaning in hoi4

 

[Denkt]

Manpower is not infinite in HOI4 and we could see which direction Hungary was about to go.

 

[General WVPM]

Manpower is not infinite in HOI4 and we could see which direction Hungary was about to go.

For a minor cost you can get hundreds of thousands of new troops, look at the www multiplayer.
Units require 0 time to be created and manpower is not something to worry about, making equipment the only thing a unit really needs.

 

[Denkt]

You can not recruit much foregine manpower so manpower is something you can only lose, the manpower laws only allow you to dig deeper but there is a limit how deep you can dig and then the source is exhausted it is all over for you.

 

[Zaku]

manpower is not something to worry about

How did you make this assumption?
Manpower is the only resource that can't be replenished easily.

 

[Mamluke]

How did you make this assumption?
Manpower is the only resource that can't be replenished easily.

I think what he means is that because the battles in WWW (even with just pure infantry) have very low casualties, thus making manpower look more plentiful then reality.
I mean sure, against Romania casualties did start to get relatively high but still

 

[Otto of england]

I think what he means is that because the battles in WWW (even with just pure infantry) have very low casualties, thus making manpower look more plentiful then reality.
I mean sure, against Romania casualties did start to get relatively high but still

Well Hungary only had one manpower law left (scrapping the barrel) and had already had the +5% from Mass Mobilization and +7% from National Foci. In all Hungary probably had 1.3 million manpower left if he went o scrapping the barrel, and then he would have run dry, and without the national foci and Mass Mobilization Hungary would already have been out of manpower reserves by the start of the German war.