HOI4 Battles Too Fast?

[oerbaa]

Looking at the latest WWW streams as Hungary I noticed the pace of the game is too fast.
What I mean is that before 1939, Hungary already controlled almost all neighboring countries. And if Daniel wanted too, he could have easily conquered Bulgaria and Greece.

It seems battles are ending too quickly and thus pushing into a nation takes barely anytime.
Now, I know some of you might say that with a superior military, it would be easy to overrun a country in a month. And I agree, if you had a large force of tanks, motorized infantry, massive airforce with ground bombardment focus, etc. you should be able to conquer a lesser nation in a month.

However Daniel's Hungarian Army was comprised solely of Infantry. No tanks, no artillery, no armored cars, engineers, support, etc. His infantry weren't even motorized. Thus he walked his way into other nations and took over in no time. His airforce was abysmal, mostly comprising of interceptors. Thus this isn't the case of a superior army decimating an inferior foe.

If you aren't convinced yet, look at WWW #2 as Hungary when they take a look at Japan. Japan, by Sep 1938, already conquered 95% of China's coast. Much farther than Hong Kong. Before war breaks out in Europe, Japan would have conquered all of China. And this was the case in WWW #3, Japan took over all of China by the end of 1939.


My suggestion to the devs, unless they think of a better method, is to add more friction during and after battles. What I mean is, make battles take longer, make walking across terrain longer if you are not strategically redeploying. Find a way to make the losses remain the same, while having the total length of a battle increase.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on this are welcomed

 

[Paglia]

Looking at the latest WWW streams as Hungary I noticed the pace of the game is too fast.
What I mean is that before 1939, Hungary already controlled almost all neighboring countries. And if Daniel wanted too, he could have easily conquered Bulgaria and Greece.

It seems battles are ending too quickly and thus pushing into a nation takes barely anytime.
Now, I know some of you might say that with a superior military, it would be easy to overrun a country in a month. And I agree, if you had a large force of tanks, motorized infantry, massive airforce with ground bombardment focus, etc. you should be able to conquer a lesser nation in a month.

However Daniel's Hungarian Army was comprised solely of Infantry. No tanks, no artillery, no armored cars, engineers, support, etc. His infantry weren't even motorized. Thus he walked his way into other nations and took over in no time. His airforce was abysmal, mostly comprising of interceptors. Thus this isn't the case of a superior army decimating an inferior foe.

If you aren't convinced yet, look at WWW #2 as Hungary when they take a look at Japan. Japan, by Sep 1938, already conquered 95% of China's coast. Much farther than Hong Kong. Before war breaks out in Europe, Japan would have conquered all of China. And this was the case in WWW #3, Japan took over all of China by the end of 1939.


My suggestion to the devs, unless they think of a better method, is to add more friction during and after battles. What I mean is, make battles take longer, make walking across terrain longer if you are not strategically redeploying. Find a way to make the losses remain the same, while having the total length of a battle increase.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on this are welcomed

What you noticed are the same issues HoI3 had before modding... No doubt it's still the case since they are using the same engine (Clausewitz) and they used mostly the same balance as in HoI3 to start with

 

[208]

Looking at the latest WWW streams as Hungary I noticed the pace of the game is too fast.
What I mean is that before 1939, Hungary already controlled almost all neighboring countries. And if Daniel wanted too, he could have easily conquered Bulgaria and Greece.

It seems battles are ending too quickly and thus pushing into a nation takes barely anytime.

I haven't seen the stream myself, but my rough understanding from forum comments is that attacking a nation not prepared for war (low org/unit strength, I guess) leads to pretty easy fights.

 

[Adonnus]

Yeah I agree with your suggestions. It's a little bit silly that little Hungary with as you say no or few motorised units could conquer such a huge Empire in such a short time. For more options we should want this to be possible in the game, but not quite as fast as it was. Of course infantry advances in terms of raw speed were completely possible of the speed seen in WWW in reality, however this can mean that it's probably the battles which are too short.

I haven't seen the stream myself, but my rough understanding from forum comments is that attacking a nation not prepared for war (low org/unit strength, I guess) leads to pretty easy fights.

A solution here might be to, if the threat is raised by warring neighbours, make it so AI nations instantly dedicate themselves to mobilising/increasing the strength of their army rather than just sitting and waiting for defeat. Switzerland and Sweden in the actual WW2 of course, as well as Turkey, despite not actually participating (meaningfully) in the conflict raised large armies on high alert just to be on the safe side. Why shouldn't the AI do the same in the event of neighbours at war?

 

[Nicolas I]

Maybe a cool down period between war declarations, because you must replenish your ammunitions/supplies and repair equipments.

That could take the form of a malus on generation of war justification, so it takes longer if you attacked another country too recently.

EDIT: It seems from the ratings below that megalomaniac would-be world conquerers don't want to be slowed in their blobing...

 

[Scutatus]

In the WWW Hungary campaign, Daniel struck against 2 neighbours in 1936/37 who were ill prepared for war and certainly not expecting it. He literally blitzed deep into their country before they even had time to mobilise properly. In this way he walked over them and gained an empire. But it is was noteworthy that on his third invasion - Romania, matters went less well against a better prepared foe and the struggle took longer with far more effort. And when he ultimately hit Germany he was throwing hail Marys and was very decisively defeated. His army and his empire collapsed very rapidly indeed, again, because the two strengths of the two opposing forces were so disparate. By the time he was destroyed it was late 1939 (or it might have even been verging on 1940?). Which is a respectable span of time for what he achieved - then suddenly lost.

In short, do not be too alarmed yet.

 

[Nicolas I]

Only 3 countries in a row for a minor, really no reasons to be alarmed...

Where you are right is that by conquering all that walks you risk that all other countries will eventually gang against you.

 

[Scutatus]

Only 3 countries in a row for a minor, you are right no reason to be alarmed.

3 countries - one of which he struggled with - by a "minor" that became anything but due to it being played and directed by a human being with a little skill, who went ahistorical and invaded neighbours almost from the start in 1936. He overran two of his conquests simply by catching them sleeping, before they could build up or even organise their forces properly, so that real effective opposition was negligible. But a year or two further down the line Daniel struggled against Romania, since they were forewarned and had built up. And Germany of course was a no hoper. It was noteworthy that by the time he took on Germany, Daniel's army was a spent force, exhausted with low org and little equipment supply, even before he crossed the border. Such was the cost of his whirlwind conquests.

And I just realised that I just kind of repeated myself here. The point here is that, on the face of it, a "minor" country going on the rampage might sound wrong, but it is important to recall the context. Daniel took his neighbours by surprise and won territory relatively quickly. But the campaigns were attrition high for him, and ultimately his own lack of preparation/weakness was his undoing. Basically Hungary overreached itself with over ambitious folly, looked glorious for the blink of an eye, then got battered back into it's proper place. In the end, the rightful situation was restored.

So yeah, you can be alarmed if you want, but I won't be just yet.

 

[Miragu]

Personally, I'm more worried about the whole "I hope the country I want to conquer doesn't join the Allies, cause that means I'd actually have to get Military Police to fight off resistance." that Daniel has been leaning towards in all the WWW's.

The whole idea that you can ideally snag countries without any consequence as long as they are not in a faction just seems very gamey to me. That would mean that Korea wouldn't resist Japan and Eastern Europe would've had no resistance against the Soviet Union after WWII ended, since hey, the treaty has been signed, right?

I think we can slow down the speed of battles/conquest if there is actually something pulling you down as you conquer your way around.

 

[Sharp163]

The problem isn't because of battles being too quick, it's snowballing due to poor rebel/unrest mechanics and seemingly infinite manpower. There's also no aggressive expansion or overextension modifiers... So of course there's going to be snowballing.

I agree, this should be one of the top things to fix.

 

[oerbaa]

What about my other point that everyone is ignoring? That Japan took almost the entire Chinese coast before the end of SEP 1938. And completely conquered China by the end of 1939.

If you want to be historical, Japan never made it even halfway what it did in the WWW series by 1940.

Either that's a sign of battles/movement being too fast, especially since China's poor infrastructure should impede fast battles and movement. Or that China is underpowered, in which case it's all a matter of buffing them.

However, given how fast his German conquest was of SU and likewise his conquests of Austria and Yugoslavia as Hungary, I'd attribute it toward battle and movement speed. And especially, another thing people are forgetting, is how fast he invaded into Germany and CAPTURED their capital! How can this insignificant minor, with infantry only troops, beat back Germany! If you say "they were occupied by France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Denmark" I'd say that's no excuse. Neither Denmark nor Netherlands nor Belgium should be able to push a small line of Germany divisions.

Hungary only began to collapse after Italy pushed through. So in summary, a tiny minor with infantry only troops, no anti tank, artillery, etc. captured Berlin..

Germany might have had more time to react/reposition troops if the troops didn't advance so quickly.

Or maybe this is just an AI priorities problem, or maybe Germany needs a buff, I can't really pinpoint the issue. The point is.. I hope by launch, you can't be at War vs UK, France, Italy, and Germany, and actually capture Berlin with an army comprised solely of infantry as a minor nation

 

[Giacomo1405]

Hungary conquered 3 nations and when went to war with germany they invaded huge pieces of german soil, they even reached and took berlin...

the fact that after they started losing everything is beside the point...


hungary could have never invaded germany and reached Berlin, it's absurd... but they did it without any tanks, mechs, or proper airforce... they did it just with underequipped infantry...

 

[griffor]

game really needs to be harder, unless we are watching www on easy it looks like ai will be even easier than hoi 3

 

[Cpack]

As said, same thing started this way in every HOI game. So it could be a matter of tweaking terrain/ weather modifiers or the speed of org regain. Also night movement could be an issue.
In general shouldn't night time and harsh winterdays have too much action, also movement speed

 

[PlacidDragon]

Hungary conquered 3 nations and when went to war with germany they invaded huge pieces of german soil, they even reached and took berlin...

Yes, and ?

The first two nations conquered (Austria and Yugoslavia) were very ill prepared, and had few divisions out. Once they got pushed back (their org destroyed), they could never halt the enemy, their countries simply being too small to pull back and set up a new defense line.

Against Romania, he had a significant tougher opponent, they only fell after protracted fighting.

the fact that after they started losing everything is beside the point...

No, i'd call that realistic. He pushed because he had the majority advantage on his front. Once he no longer did, he got pushed back.

hungary could have never invaded germany and reached Berlin, it's absurd... but they did it without any tanks, mechs, or proper airforce... they did it just with underequipped infantry...

You are missing the obvious point here. Germany was at war with the allies. They had taken Poland, were fighting the French / British around the Maginot Line, declared war on the Dutch (or the Belgians, or both, i dont remember), declared war on Denmark and Norway. So their forces were quite busy... and Daniel backstabbed them (friendly relations, alliance request, etc etc).

So Germany started pulling back troops to deal with the situation (and/or deploy new recruits). It took a little bit, but stop him they did. Then they forced him back, and nothing Daniel did could have stopped the German steamroller once it got going. Of course it didn't help Daniel that he at the same time was at war with the allies, and that Italy decided that he looked tasty, having all his men either as invasion defense, or on the front against Germany.

The point being that once Germany started pushing Daniel back, he had neither the manpower or space to push back or even halt the enemy.

game really needs to be harder, unless we are watching www on easy it looks like ai will be even easier than hoi 3

As i understand, its being played on "Normal" difficulty.

 

[linen]

Also I find it pretty disturbing how you can deploy 10 fresh divisions at your capital and transport them 600km within 8 hours right to the front line. That is a hell of a lot of logistics... Doubly so when you're literally deploying them for the first time.

It's becoming pretty apparent that this game will look great, play well and be pretty fantastic but will require some heavy modding for the more serious and 'realistic' crowd.

 

[jcpvdberg]

Luckely we are more then a month away from release. So the game isn't finished and they will no doubt put lots of work in things like that!

 

[grandad1982]

4 counties, not 3. How quickly people forget czechoslovakia.

 

[PlacidDragon]

4 counties, not 3. How quickly people forget czechoslovakia.

So used to them getting absorbed by Germany that it completely slipped my mind

 

[Damiani]

Also I find it pretty disturbing how you can deploy 10 fresh divisions at your capital and transport them 600km within 8 hours right to the front line. That is a hell of a lot of logistics... Doubly so when you're literally deploying them for the first time.

It's becoming pretty apparent that this game will look great, play well and be pretty fantastic but will require some heavy modding for the more serious and 'realistic' crowd.

I totally agree, this is sort of ridiculous. In the first WWW Daniel literally deployed 60 divisions in one go. I think that this kind of negates the need to train divisions because they will just "learn on the front". It might be interesting to have a mechanic were any division that has less than 5% EXP will just shatter in combat, much like HQs did in HOI3. This will slow down blobbing of divisions a bit and force the player to spend more time on training.