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lihp

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So the AI front relocation bug, the one that keeps me from playing the patch, wasn't solved? Or how should I interpret it. Can someone who has played confirm whether it's still gamebreaking or not?

Bug as such is gone.
 
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lihp

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Can some one explain why troops of capitulated Italy continued to fight? Should not they gone? History mode enabled.
They continue as part of their alliance. Like French troops in England (and then Normandie), Polish troops, Belgium troops,... Basically the governments in exile do that.
 
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markovszky

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Maybe I am mistaken here, but there might be something fundamentally wrong with how AI is working, maybe it needs a strong rework instead of a patch. I have the feeling we are waiting for a proper patch but new issues pop up every time, while some core problems remain untouched.

Now I know that guys at Paradox are working hard to solve these. Maybe it is just time to give us customers a better understanding of the underlying problems so that we do not wait for Christmas here.

Some honesty about these challenges and how much time you guys think it might take to solve them would help some of us to adjust our expectations and not be disappointed on a weekly basis.

Thx for considering.

A sad customer
 
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lihp

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... what does this have to do with AI downgrading its units to half their original size because it thinks it's a smart move when it's really not?

And it's not like entrenched 3 battalion unit is going to hold against 1-2 regular divisions any better than regular unit which travels -- the loss of organization on move may mean the unit gets pushed back initially, but organization is regained pretty quickly, and that unit will have a fighting chance soon enough. The 3 battalion trash on the other hand won't become more of an obstacle, because it doesn't pose one to begin with.

10 width units can make sense for several situations, even on European battlefields. Actually they might even make sense overall due to their lower supply need and better distribution. Also:
  • the lower the width the more efficient are support units.
  • lower width makes it easier for one to assign the best possible units to a specific battle
  • ...
As long as I dont know 100% on how the AI performs there, I wouldnt comment or judge that setting.
 

podcat

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Maybe I am mistaken here, but there might be something fundamentally wrong with how AI is working, maybe it needs a strong rework instead of a patch. I have the feeling we are waiting for a proper patch but new issues pop up every time, while some core problems remain untouched.

Building any ai is like a house of cards. a tiny card put off balance will tip the whole thing. stuff like abandoning the front can be as simple as changing a line that says "4" to "8". The problem is that you have thousands of those and they interact in ways you might not be able to anticipate. Stuff like this is perfectly normal, especially on a beta.
 
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lihp

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Why is this? Any chance you have a save of it happening?
I put one in bug forum. My post there from today is where Germany AI researched Panzer.

But I found it quite intelligent: they continued to prod Panzer II and others, until Panzer IV prod was sufficiently up and immediatly switched to Panzer IV units. I actually considered it pretty good on how AI handles it and plays its cards (thats imho an area where the AI is better than the player...)
 
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markovszky

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Building any ai is like a house of cards. a tiny card put off balance will tip the whole thing. stuff like abandoning the front can be as simple as changing a line that says "4" to "8". The problem is that you have thousands of those and they interact in ways you might not be able to anticipate. Stuff like this is perfectly normal, especially on a beta.

OK! First of all, thank you for answering. I know you guys are working hard to fulfill the expectations of an ever larger, highly demanding specialist crowd here :)

Also, I am a fan of your studio, because you guys provide an in-depth experience. I understand the house of cards argument, completely.

Do you think that with the help of the community, these issues will be solved by the next 2 weeks? Or do you think that a month or two shall pass before we can play the game with the immersion I am used to in EU4, CK2 or HOI3? A general guidance would be highly appreciated. In secret I hope you say end of this week :D haha

Thank you!
 
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OK! First of all, thank you for answering. I know you guys are working hard to fulfill the expectations of an ever larger, highly demanding specialist crowd here :)

Also, I am a fan of your studio, because you guys provide an in-depth experience. I understand the house of cards argument, completely.

Do you think that with the help of the community, these issues will be solved by the next 2 weeks? Or do you think that a month or two shall pass before we can play the game with the immersion I am used to in EU4, CK2 or HOI3? A general guidance would be highly appreciated. In secret I hope you say end of this week :D haha

Thank you!
They will do as much as they can before vacation this Friday. I think everyone goes back to work late July. So we might have to distract ourselves with something else for a while.
 
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Nimic

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As the 39 start is the closest to that situation, that is what I have tested with, and in those it looks fine as far as I can tell, with Germany defeating France, Belgium and Netherlands before August 1940 even hits. If you manage to get a save with this, PLEASE report it in the bug forum. With any luck I manage to sort this out before the patch has to go live.

EDIT: Actually, PM me a save directly.

Did you manage to fix this, with the save @wildbillhdmax01 provided? I have a couple of saves, in case you didn't. The first is right before Around Maginot. I ran the game a few times from there, all with the result of Germany moving most of its divisions to the East around 15. june (the day the NAP can be cancelled). The second is one such result, from 15. june where Germany has taken Maginot, which doesn't stop them from moving 180+ divisions away from the impending fall of France right as soon as the Soviets break the pact (a few days in).

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g3ettnh1yh8cf4p/AAAstWqaW8gSmRcC1xNO_01ja?dl=0

Both 1936 starts, regular difficulty, historical AI focuses.

In one of the runs (from the Around Maginot save), Berlin fell in September 1940. No less than 100 divisions got encircled in Belgium, after they were in the same two provinces, engaging two other provinces, at the time when they moved all their other divisions east. Seems like if they don't conquer France by June 15, they are doomed.
 

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Why is this? Any chance you have a save of it happening?
AI seems to prioritize production of light tanks and doesn't recognize and/or can't react to situations where production it schedules isn't actually happening. This affects rate at which it introduces medium and heavy tanks, and why it usually doesn't. More details in bug forums thread here.
 
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10 width units can make sense for several situations, even on European battlefields. Actually they might even make sense overall due to their lower supply need and better distribution. Also:
  • the lower the width the more efficient are support units.
  • lower width makes it easier for one to assign the best possible units to a specific battle
  • ...
As long as I dont know 100% on how the AI performs there, I wouldnt comment or judge that setting.
The entire Spanish Civil War is fought with 3 battalion units. You only need to see the impact of the normal volunteer divisions in that setting to judge how impractical that is and how AI can't really make any good use of any potential strong sides.

(iirc, the Spanish Civil War units were on purpose made this way, precisely so the player could affect things more easily with their contribution)
 
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The entire Spanish Civil War is fought with 3 battalion units. You only need to see the impact of the normal volunteer divisions in that setting to judge how impractical that is.

(iirc, the Spanish Civil War units were on purpose made this way, precisely so the player could affect things more easily with their contribution)

I'm sure it also has to do with the low amount of divisions for the size of the front line. If we had 20 width divisions in Spain, you wouldn't actually get any sort of proper front line.
 
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podcat

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I'm sure it also has to do with the low amount of divisions for the size of the front line. If we had 20 width divisions in Spain, you wouldn't actually get any sort of proper front line.
its both of those reasons really
 
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tom_jones

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I'm sure it also has to do with the low amount of divisions for the size of the front line. If we had 20 width divisions in Spain, you wouldn't actually get any sort of proper front line.
Hmm? I did have width 20 divisions in Spain as volunteer force. I don't remember any problems with getting any sort of proper front line with them.

The relative performance of small units can be also well observed if Spain joins the Axis and tries to take on France. spoiler: it tends to not end well. They can't even hold if attacked in the mountains, much less on anything more flat.
 

Shock360

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Hmm? I did have width 20 divisions in Spain as volunteer force. I don't remember any problems with getting any sort of proper front line with them.

The relative performance of small units can be also well observed if Spain joins the Axis and tries to take on France. spoiler: it tends to not end well. They can't even hold if attacked in the mountains, much less on anything more flat.
he means, if spain used bigger units they wouldnt have enougb to actually cover their fronts in the civil war and actually doing anything
 
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Silas1775

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AI seems to prioritize production of light tanks and doesn't recognize and/or can't react to situations where production it schedules isn't actually happening. This affects rate at which it introduces medium and heavy tanks, and why it usually doesn't. More details in bug forums thread here.


Read through both that thread and the one it links to. I really hope it's fixable without a ton of tinkering.
 

Ouragan2

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Main issues there:
  • AI doesn't know how to use proper-sized division templates (this is being worked on);
  • Manpower is far too high across the board;
  • Conscription laws provide too much manpower, especially later on.

I don't think conscription f.e in South Africa was a main problem, especially to create very simple units, like militia. The main problem was a weapon, ammunition, technic specialists to use tanks, guns, maps etc., supplies to maintain peoples in unit like food, wears... All of this have a cost in money, thats way minors don't have a big army. I think the problem is that minors don't have individual focus tree, and can build for free many weapon factoris now, thanks for industry focus and have too high industry at the beginning of 1936. Change in this options could help to create more historical game.
 

lihp

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Hmm? I did have width 20 divisions in Spain as volunteer force. I don't remember any problems with getting any sort of proper front line with them.

The relative performance of small units can be also well observed if Spain joins the Axis and tries to take on France. spoiler: it tends to not end well. They can't even hold if attacked in the mountains, much less on anything more flat.

This changes if Spain would sit with all units on a way smaller front line. In this case 1/3 the width, thus having 3x the units in one province than before. With support ART/AT they will even hit the French more brutal than the Germans.
 

Ouragan2

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Can some one explain why troops of capitulated Italy continued to fight? Should not they gone? History mode enabled.

Because this is standard option for all surrendered countries. ;) Look at this in other point. Why when country who is in a faction capitulate, player don't take it equipment ? :) I can understand why we take all equipment when capitulate country who is not in faction, and we don't take equipment when country is in faction ;)
 
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