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Kovax

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There are several scripted DoWs in the game that generate a bit more or less than the standard amount of Threat, and Marco Polo Bridge is likely to be one of them, I haven't actually checked the numbers. Since Shanxi comes in automatically, they're a "freebie" for you, no additional DoW needed, and no extra Threat gained, and if China manages to draw in any of the other warlords, that's just one more for you to take without increasing your Threat with the US.

Also be aware that the scripted war goals can sometimes be counter-productive. As a prime example, Germany taking the "Vichy" option as the default means that they get the rich northern part and coasts, convert the south into an independent state under German protection, and leave the scattered pieces of the French empire to continue the fight on the Allied side. A human-controlled Germany can instead decide to annex ALL of it, or else can take only the rich north and puppet the rest, instantly bringing any remaining French divisions and the French fleet into the Axis. No need to garrison the southern half of the Atlantic coast, the Med, and all of those scattered French possessions around the world if France will do it for you. The down side is that most of that French land in Africa and Asia will then be vulnerable to UK attacks, and France's National Unity will be low, so you may need to support them if the UK/US make any serious landings on the continent.

In your case, check your options before deciding to initiate "Marco Polo" or to choose the "Take the Coasts" war goal; it may or may not be a good idea, depending on your long term objectives, and it may or may not pay to simply declare war instead of following the historical path. If one warlord is allied to 4 others, a DoW on that warlord will likely put you at war with all 4 of the others, with only the Threat for the one original declaration....assuming that you feel capable of taking on all of them at once.

Another example: After CZE, the UK guarantees Poland, and Poland in effect becomes an Allied member (the latter situation not being very historical). By declaring war on a neutral country (HUN, YUG, HOL, DEN, BEL, etc.), it puts GER's Threat on the UK over the limit, and the UK will declare its own war in a matter of days. That gives GER its desired war with Poland and France, plus that neutral country, with only one DoW, instead of having to DoW that neutral seperately. Basically, the UK gets the blame for starting WWII, or at least escalating it from a local war into a "world war".
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
Every declaration of war generates the same amount of threat regardless of the country's size. You usually only get 1-2 pre-war DoWs before you massively throw the game off the rails.

I see that now. One DLW on NatChi and suddenly I'm leading the league in threat. No more until someone else steps up to be a bigger threat.

Now what I have to figure out is how to improve supply in China. For some reason, my people closest to the sea have the worst supply problems. All the way in Xian? No problem. Right along the coast north of Shanghai? Starving. Techs don't help. Not sure if it's a throughput issue or a shipment issue (port capacity)?
 

Kovax

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Could be a time delay issue. If you had two independent zones, each with their own port, and connected them, the zones will merge and all of the supplies will then come from one of the two supply depots, with any remaining supplies in the second depot being moved to the first. The choice of which depot gets deleted and which remains is unclear, but there seems to be some randomness to it. If that's happened, it may take a while before the units which were being served by the deleted depot can get new supplies all the way from the newly selected depot.

Boosting the Infrastructure along the obvious supply routes can ease the situation once the supplies have time to reach their destinations (check the Supply map mode to see which provinces they're actually being routed through). Focus on the bottleneck provinces, those with the worst infrastructure and those with no alternate adjacent paths, wherever it leads to a sizable troop concentration, which should make a substantial difference. Don't worry about one or two scattered divisions deep inland, the infrastructure can probably support them, focus on the main arteries leading from your depot.

The 3 Supply-related techs in the "Theory" tab can help as well, one allowing more supply through the existing Infrastructure, one reducing the amount of supply that's used by the transport network itself, and the third boosting the repair rates of Infrastructure, ports, ships, and buildings. In particular, the one that increases throughput is probably the most useful near your ports, and the one that reduces supply tax starts looking more valuable as you extend the supply lines further. If you're getting bombed regularly, or having your ships shot up repeatedly, repair speed can be critical.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
I figured out what it was. I had bypassed Tianjin and Qingdao, among a couple of other VP spaces that I did not consider paid their way. Taking Qingdao solved it almost immediately, which tells me that it was a port capacity issue. My combined ports didn't allow for enough shipment from near enough points. I had the other one on that peninsula, plus the one just south, but those are too small. Anyone those could not supply had to get it from the overland lines leading all the way back through Manchuria, and that was too much for the infrastructure--both in terms of capacity and distance.

I used to think I could just stay at war with Tibet or Xibei or someone to keep war going even if I slipped up and fired the coastal handover event, but it's quite clear from this conversation that maintaining war with NatChi is imperative until I'm ready to be at war with someone else. If only the warlords would DW me--but they won't. So I have to watch which VP I capture, and make sure I choose the most productive ones. I'm told that when I'm ready to trigger a real conquest of NatChi, I can just add Conquer to the Wargoals. Hope that works.

I always keep supply-related techs current, so I knew it wasn't that. It's still 1937, so I'd have to have worked on Advanced Construction Engineering before I could improve infrastructure (it's definitely on the to-do list, though).
 

Kovax

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Note that some of the industrial and resource provinces have no VPs, so those are free for the taking, if you're trying NOT to end the war in order to continue your wartime laws and remain mobilized without facing sky-high consumer demand.

Once Germany takes the remains of Czechoslovakia, you might be able to add another DoW (perhaps against Guangxi?) without being far and away the scariest thing on the planet, and from there it's only a few months until Germany's at war with the Allies, and your own Threat level doesn't matter anymore except to the US. Xibei and Yunnan probably aren't worth the cost to garrison and pacify; if you end up at war with them, I'd suggest puppeting them instead of annexing: they garrison themselves, and send you any resources that they stockpile above 1000 (if that ever happens).
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
I did a spreadsheet of all the VP spaces, assigning relative values to IC, LS, and the various resources. By adjusting those relative values, I could make reasonable determinations which to bypass. Anything without VPs is an automatic grap, especially the horses and foil. In case you're interested in the results, valuing LS at 5 per point, IC 2, energy .75, metal 2 and rares 4, Jinan and Chengdu are the best, then Wuhan and Guangzhou, then Nanjing and Chongqing. Worst are Tianjin, Baoding, Haikou, Ningbo and Xiamen, all with VP but nothing to show for it.

A part of me doesn't like manipulating the game this way, but:

--The Marco Polo event ends war whether I want it to or not (I assume due to an embedded wargoal).
--The warlords don't come in on their own, which I believe is ahistorical; I wish they would, it'd be a bigger challenge, perhaps even make conquering China problematic if they came in early.
--Since NatChi as is takes at most a year for Japan to break its back, one has to do this to stay at war. In the real thing, of course, NatChi wasn't conquered because conquering China is no easy thing, but the effect was to keep Japan at war. Game mechanics require me to keep war going in order to build properly.

My threat went to, what was it, about 16 with the USA after I attacked NatChi, so I'll have to watch Germany's threat on USA after the end of Czechoslovakia. If it's high enough to allow me to take Guangxi, they get added to the haul. If not, I just have to wait.
 

CocoCincinnati

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Another example: After CZE, the UK guarantees Poland, and Poland in effect becomes an Allied member (the latter situation not being very historical). By declaring war on a neutral country (HUN, YUG, HOL, DEN, BEL, etc.), it puts GER's Threat on the UK over the limit, and the UK will declare its own war in a matter of days. That gives GER its desired war with Poland and France, plus that neutral country, with only one DoW, instead of having to DoW that neutral seperately. Basically, the UK gets the blame for starting WWII, or at least escalating it from a local war into a "world war".

Don't want to sidetrack this discussion too much but are there scripted core changes that go along with the Danzig or War event, meaning if you bypass this event by declaring on a neutral and tricking the allies into starting the war, that you miss those cores? Even if this is true, I'm not sure that even makes much of a difference or at least not as big a one as keeping the US neutral.
 

Kovax

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Don't want to sidetrack this discussion too much but are there scripted core changes that go along with the Danzig or War event, meaning if you bypass this event by declaring on a neutral and tricking the allies into starting the war, that you miss those cores? Even if this is true, I'm not sure that even makes much of a difference or at least not as big a one as keeping the US neutral.
Yes, but they're relatively minor: half a dozen provinces with no more than a couple of IC total, if I recall. The higher value urban provinces aren't part of that, and I believe you've already got cores on a couple provinces (Danzig) as it is.
 

athunder7

Corporal
Sep 10, 2014
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Still working out the best way to balance the needs, but even making mistakes I can pretty much own NatChi within a year of invasion. Problem: how to keep the USA out of the Allies? If their Allied lean is based on how much China one takes, there might not be much I can do, but I really would rather keep them out of the war until 1942 rather than have them gang up in 1939 over Poland. I tried a long-term spy project of Support our Party, and got the America First people up to about 30%, but still they joined the Allies. Only other thing I can think of is align to Axis as quickly as possible from the start, then join Axis, then immediately begin influencing the USA. Ideas?
UK reacts to your army size and influences USA to allies. Do Japan start in 36' and start trading with USA. Selling them fuel in 7 or 10 units works maybe. Sell them supplies. Watch the "maybe" "likely" Very likely" slider change to your favor.
To be honest you have no fear of USA anyway. Build a few brigades from 36' on to lower praticals. Tanks, MOT, and armored cars will come in handy. Upgrading garrisions good idea but costly all the the same and OC sufferes. Build your navy and IC till Marco polo event. Take your sweet time in China and get Veteran Army Bonus! Roll dice and invade Communist China, then other Asia countries. I wait couple months in between each. By 39' you should have Navy to shred anything that comes you way. Prepare to go into Dutch and British East Indies, India, Siam, Aust, NZL, PHI and Guam-Wake-Midway pretty much at same time. You can wait on fall of France in may of 40' or jump gun and just conquer. Prepare for major major naval battles around Singapore. USA will be slow to react. You CV's should shred anything coming your way. Building 4-6 extra CAG's and swapping them out works well and should of been Japans strategy in War.
 

athunder7

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Sep 10, 2014
47
0
I see that now. One DLW on NatChi and suddenly I'm leading the league in threat. No more until someone else steps up to be a bigger threat.

Now what I have to figure out is how to improve supply in China. For some reason, my people closest to the sea have the worst supply problems. All the way in Xian? No problem. Right along the coast north of Shanghai? Starving. Techs don't help. Not sure if it's a throughput issue or a shipment issue (port capacity)?
Upgrade Infastucure to Saesbo, build 200 supply transports minium to keep up. Conquer China instead of seize coast. Conquer gives you 40-50 extra IC up to FoF and take French colonies event.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
Upgrade Infastucure to Saesbo, build 200 supply transports minium to keep up. Conquer China instead of seize coast. Conquer gives you 40-50 extra IC up to FoF and take French colonies event.

Doing that to Sasebo isn't going to help; I learned that the problem is on the other end, where I hadn't captured enough ports to allow enough supplies to be shipped in even if I had 1000 transports. Now I have enough ports to bring in enough supply to strain the infrastructure and its supply throughput, but that should improve with the 1938 techs.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
Okay. It's September 1940. Japan is not in the Axis and has neutralized NatChi without forcing surrender (isolating and skipping a few VP cities). Shanxi of course surrendered. Have not yet bothered any of the other warlord states (I can't anyway, as a neutral, at least not yet). Have not joined the Axis. Ignoring weekly invitations from Adolf to join the party. Germany has taken Poland, Denmark, Norway, Low Countries, and France.

Now the Indochina event is available. Germany's threat with USA is 23.8. It's been higher than mine since they invaded Poland (at which time mine with USA was 15.6). If I join the Axis now, I'll get Taiwan Strait, Chihli Gulf, maybe one of the other effects, plus all that is in Indochina. I'll also probably be eligible to crush Guangxi, which should take about two days. Of course, if I thought Guangxi would push the US into the Allies, I could easily wait until later to take it.

If I join the Axis now, is that all but certain to drive the Americans into the Allies? Naturally, I'd prefer to wait for the USA to join the Allies as the result of me turning Pearl into a smoking crater (and shortly after, our forward operating base). If they joined now, the Monster Economic Mobilization would start that much sooner, and while none of the CVs they laid down would be ready, in another year they'd have a new set to replace all the ones I just finished sinking.

Thoughts, please?
 
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10000 Tanks

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Okay. It's September 1940. Japan is not in the Axis and has neutralized NatChi without forcing surrender (isolating and skipping a few VP cities). Shanxi of course surrendered. Have not yet bothered any of the other warlord states (I can't anyway, as a neutral, at least not yet). Have not joined the Axis. Ignoring weekly invitations from Adolf to join the party. Germany has taken Poland, Denmark, Norway, Low Countries, and France.

Now the Indochina event is available. Germany's threat with USA is 23.8. It's been higher than mine since they invaded Poland (at which time mine with USA was 15.6). If I join the Axis now, I'll get Taiwan Strait, Chihli Gulf, maybe one of the other effects, plus all that is in Indochina. I'll also probably be eligible to crush Guangxi, which should take about two days. Of course, if I thought Guangxi would push the US into the Allies, I could easily wait until later to take it.

If I join the Axis now, is that all but certain to drive the Americans into the Allies? Naturally, I'd prefer to wait for the USA to join the Allies as the result of me turning Pearl into a smoking crater (and shortly after, our forward operating base). If they joined now, the Monster Economic Mobilization would start that much sooner, and while none of the CVs they laid down would be ready, in another year they'd have a new set to replace all the ones I just finished sinking.

Thoughts, please?

You can join the axis without the USA automatically joining the Allies. As a matter of fact, I currently play Japan, triggered Marco Polo in march 1938, joined the Axis immediately, and in October 1939 declared limited war on the UK as they declared war on my ally Germany. We now have November 1940 and puppetted Australia and New Zealand, conquered the Pacific Isles of France and UK, Malaysia, Borneo and the Dutch East Indies. I have landed an army in Calcutta and I am invading Ceylon. Next I am going to puppet South Africa. Two further armies are positioned close to GuangXi and CommChina, but I won't declare war as my threat is now close to the US neutrality. I am preparing my Navy for war against the US now.

The Royal Navy is history. You will have to plan for War against both, the Royal and the US Navy at the same time. The advantage of war with the UK is you can decimate their Navy before you are confronted with the US, your admirals gain experience (most of mine are close to their max now) and - due to the Royal navy being bound by your Navy - Italy has a much better position in the Med once entering the war.

Only my transport system is not yet recovering. For two and a half months my industry was producing at 50% because of raw material shortage.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
Taking Indochina (which is only possible once one joins the Axis) adds 5 threat with USA. That means I am probably around 21, whereas Germany is barely ahead of me in threat with them. If I declare LW against the British (or French, or whoever), it's hard for me to imagine that not bringing the US into it. I went ahead and joined the Axis, and got Indochina, and immediately learned that the Viet Minh were a thing, so now working on the needed garrison force. I'd absolutely be delighted to crush Guangxi (not sure it's worth bothering Xibei or Yunnan even when I can get by with it) but I'd sure hate to bring the USA out of its neutrality. I've walked on eggshells all this time to avoid doing that. Maybe I've misunderstood what causes them to jump in.

It only took the USA about a month (I played for a short time before bed, thinking I could reload if absolutely necessary) to embargo me, but it doesn't seem to cause me any problems.
 

Kovax

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If you're not buying anything from the US, their embargo won't have any effect. All that does is cancels any trade deals with them.

Normally, you build Threat by taking offensive actions (declaring war) or by building military units, particularly units that are non-reserves (planes and ships are never built as reserves). That Threat is magnified by being in a faction, so if you take the hostile actions before joining, the act of joining SHOULDN'T cause any additional Threat, but anything you do from there on will be seen in a more sinister light. If you've got a fleet about to complete, DON'T join the Axis just yet. If you've got a lot of reserve Infantry in the production queue, and not a lot of planes and ships, then it may not be a significant concern.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
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I was doing a lot of business with the US, but was diversified enough that the embargo didn't hurt much. Had to cut back on a little buying.

I guess we'll see if the tail end of my naval and air building program brings them into the war. If so, I've got three full carrier groups by now and have a fourth ready by spring 1941. I'll have two level ten radar by then, and I plan to keep building those. If they wait until late 1941 to come in, it may no longer be their decision, heh. Tora tora tora.
 

Big Nev

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As Japan, what has struck me most is the need to be a cheap SOB. I care about every point of supply I can save. I care about every leader in the proper place without waste. I care about .05 IC. I want to waste nothing, because they don't have all that much and there's a ton to do. I want every chunk of resources and every IC. I am not going to disband even the crummy antique subs--any naval unit that can fight even by throwing rocks can have a patrol job later on, spotting incoming danger just as the real-life picket boats were to do. I do not believe I can be inefficient and succeed. So if anything I am doing is very inefficient, and the AA choice might be the most questionable in that regard, I'm definitely going to pay attention.

Where I probably diverge most from conventional thought is on garrisons. I've never seen a garrison division give me a tough fight and I am not putting faith in them for anything but static VP defense. For that, a 'division' of 1 Gar/1 MP is sufficient. For defense of relatively secure areas, I build the same 3 Mil/1 AA I did playing Germany many times, two per port. If it's an insecure area, I reason, it needs defending by real combat divisions with real leaders. So Okinawa will get by with my militia divisions, but I'll probably pile a whole infantry corps in Truk, because I want to keep it. Same for Midway and Guam and Wake, which I have seen that the USA keeps wanting back (can't blame them).

This is interesting.

I too hate to waste anything as Japan and follow a similar philosophy. Chuck nowt out. Those crappy sub's can sink quite a lot of French & British freight if given the right bases to work from.

As for the threat issue. I never join Axis and the US rarely joins the Allies until after 41 and/or after THEY do the Pearl Harbour thing.

I think AA as your support bgd of choice is 100% correct. FOR JAPAN. Especially up to 1940 or so. AA is slightly cheaper to build, maintain & supply than AT and it's not for shooting down aircraft any more than AT is for shooting down tanks (in China?) but for getting you that all important 5% combined arms bonus and, even more importantly, training all your generals to be battlemasters.

I also follow your views on garrison troops. Where I diverge is in thinking that your best ground defence will be the Kidō Butai backed-up by Yamato, Musashi, Shinano (as the SHBB she was meant to be) Nagato etc. etc. etc.

The islands you've mentioned, apart from Truk, may need to be heavily defended. Divisions of [3MTN+TD] work well. If the USA (or anybody else) attacks with Marines [3MAR+ENG], the TD will give you the armour piercing advantage (without taking-up very limited frontage) and they'll get stomped. If they attack with anything else, their amphibious penalties will be so high they'll get stomped. I use MTN for the extra Org of Elite troops (Special Forces is a tech I keep well up-to-date) so they can stay in the fight a LOT longer than even regular Infantry. This is important when you're waiting for the cavalry to arrive. MAR, of course, require more supplies and have other jobs to do anyway. Like re-taking any island I may have lost or...

Hawaii :)

If anybody is in a position to launch a serious invasion of Truk, you've already lost, but there's usually an elite garrison or two there as I use it to "re-charge" any divisions that have been in combat as the infra of the other islands just doesn't cut it for Org re-gain. I will also max-out the Truk infra.
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
263
108
Thanks for the thoughts, Nev. As I've played along into 1943, the US has been able to mount only a couple of determined efforts to re-invade an island. They tried to get Wake back, but in the middle of the action I brought a carrier group. No bueno for them. Same at Nauru. Techs are pretty much up to date and we'll deploy our first jets later this year. With four US CVs, four CVLs, 11 BBs, 11 CAs and about 12 CLs sunk, along with the usual plethora of escort size ships, there is now a limit for the time being to which their navy can bother me. They've got all their orphaned CAGs in Midway along with seven divisions of marines and infantry that had to turn back from invasion efforts and now don't get out much.

If anything, I could have launched my side of the war a bit earlier than March 1942, but this is a learning game. I still need to figure out what is a good method to organize the army in far-flung island efforts where keeping corps in army range is usually a problem, much less armies in army group range. Theater command is always a LW, of course, so we get something from that.