• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
Will HOI3 feature the old "morale" attribute? I sincerely hope not.

"Morale" is a concept more suitable to tactical games like Steel Panthers or Close Combat and is indivisibly tied to Suppression. Both of these concepts fall of the edge when talking grand strategy. At best, the (low) morale of the troops would be signified by the dissent combat maluses.

I never quite understood why exactly the Soviet path had more "morale", allowing for more often attacks. Based on what? The disastrous repeated counterattacks in the late Summer 1941? Or the rash campaign of Spring 1942 which ended again in failure as the Germans once again seized the initiative and pushed all the way to Stalingrad? Those were haphazard efforts and met a fitting end. That's not a quality!

In fact,once Stalin relinquished more authority to his generals (and inevitably launched a second smaller light-"purge" post-WWII, with Zhukov as the top victim) the operations of the Red Army entered a more natural rhythm,with months of meticulous preparations,then massive encirclement attempts.

"Morale" is not only a tactical concept elevated to grand-strategy attribute that wrongly overwrites the "speed of org recovery" concept that is tied to officers not morale of men, it also seems like it's been distributed on the basis of stereotypes.

Merely the comparison between Germany and the USSR elicits laughs. Germany has less "morale" than the USSR. On the one hand, a discussion of who is more motivated is not only a dead end (BOTH were highly motivated) it is also outside the scope of a grand strategy game. On the other hand, to attribute a lightning fast reorg speed (high "morale") to a country (USSR) whose officer corps quality never lived up to Germany's is plain stupid (initiative was explicitly discouraged in Soviet doctrine, for Pete's sake!).

Given what was labeled as "morale" in HOI2 was actually "reorg speed", and that has less to do with the morale and more to the quality of the lower officer ranks AND logistics (in fact,a decent case can be made that it is actually only logistics that meaningfully affect reorg speed),the introduction of the "officer" game resource is a most welcome addition and opens the door to correcting the mistake of HOI2. That means that the quality of the officers will likely be a focus and by extension,the speed at which the division reorganizes, among other factors considered (although,again,upon closer inspection, logistics might be the only big player in that).
 

Bullfrog

General der Tso's Chicken
25 Badges
Mar 11, 2005
5.978
421
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 200k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
Or they could use the Leadership thing for another way to model reorg speed, but I also agree that it helps to have a good supply line...Also the generalship and to a slight degree, doctrine.
 

unmerged(121827)

Sergeant
Oct 30, 2008
73
0
Yes, org regain hasn't got much to do with morale, I agree that logistics and leadership should mainly influence org regain. I would say that morale is a strategic concept, but it is tied in with organisation, neither a demoralised unit nor a disorganised one will fight well. Drawing a clear distinction between the two is a bit artificial.
Anyway, the Japanese had the best morale.
 

Naga Niome

Captain
21 Badges
Oct 4, 2005
304
51
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
I have always wanted to see Morale be affected by combat as Organization is, thus, a division that is even once retreated from combat could lose a significant portion of it's Morale, subsequently losing it's ability to regain Organization faster.

Besides that, I'm not actually sure how it should be handled, but I do agree on some of your statements it isn't done well. I think Leadership is a great addition to HoI3, but it shouldn't be the recipe for an increment or detriment of Morale, but just Organization. I wish Morale could be represented as a whole an entire division, thus, a divisions that has say 0/50 Morale is losing Strength because of desertion and complete rout, but takes longer to regain Organization consequently. However, SS divisions would be extremely difficult to succumb to even 10/50, Volkstrum, they would begin with around 20/20.

So again, I do agree on many of your statements Radu, but by no means should Morale be removed from the series. It's a feature with so much potential as I scribed above that could revamp it. Just, Paradox needs to revolutionize it, make land doctrines affect Organization and the rate it comes, but Morale I'm honestly not sure. Morale should be an entire divisions collected state of mind though, Organization how quickly they're to formulate defending and attacking, organize counterattacks, etc.