Hoi "divizions"

[Wolkec]

Hello, I've read about how hoi4 distinguishes units, and it's about as weird as hoi3 was at it.
Now before i say anything, just note that this is my personal opinion, i'm not trying to be a smartypants, in fact i'm pretty sure i'm wrong, and would like to get a better insight on how the whole command/perspective works. Despite all of the criticism, i still liked hoi3 a lot and paradox games in general

So, as far as i'm aware, from my limited military knowledge, military formations/groups always consist of 3~5 "sub classes", which is about as many as a human being can micromanage efficiently.
Here's a picture to demonstrate my point.

I was really bugged by the notion of a commander having 16 brigades under his command? Why not just 3 Divisions, why skip a whole formation? Shouldn't the smallest unit be something like a Brigade (Since smaller units would need higher fidelity map/terrain), and then go up by a factor of 3?
This is something that really put me off when playing previous HOI games.

Another thing that i dislike are the 3d images of soldiers walking around, i'd prefer to just see nato identifiers, the 3d thing is a real turnoff at least for me.

 

[wright1331]

Hello, I've read about how hoi4 distinguishes units, and it's about as weird as hoi3 was at it.
Now before i say anything, just note that this is my personal opinion, i'm not trying to be a smartypants, in fact i'm pretty sure i'm wrong, and would like to get a better insight on how the whole command/perspective works. Despite all of the criticism, i still liked hoi3 a lot and paradox games in general

So, as far as i'm aware, from my limited military knowledge, military formations/groups always consist of 3~5 "sub classes", which is about as many as a human being can micromanage efficiently.
Here's a picture to demonstrate my point.

I was really bugged by the notion of a commander having 16 brigades under his command? Why not just 3 Divisions, why skip a whole formation? Shouldn't the smallest unit be something like a Brigade (Since smaller units would need higher fidelity map/terrain), and then go up by a factor of 3?
This is something that really put me off when playing previous HOI games.

Another thing that i dislike are the 3d images of soldiers walking around, i'd prefer to just see nato identifiers, the 3d thing is a real turnoff at least for me.

Nato identifers are IN

 

[Wolkec]

You can switch them up for the world map? What about those in the division view (the panel that shows what makes a division).
Still doesn't explain the whole formation skipping part.

 

[Raptor83]

Division designer is using batallions, not brigades.

 

[Zaku]

You can switch them up for the world map? What about those in the division view (the panel that shows what makes a division).
Still doesn't explain the whole formation skipping part.

Division is the smallest commandable unit, but the smallest actual unit is the battalion. You need to build your divisions using battalions.
Also you can only use 3-4 battalions in a division and call them a "brigade" so in that way you can command individual brigades as well

 

[Wolkec]

Division designer is using batallions, not brigades.

Why would that make any sense whatsoever?

 

[Wolkec]

Division is the smallest commandable unit, but the smallest actual unit is the battalion. You need to build your divisions using battalions.
Also you can only use 3-4 battalions in a division and call them a "brigade" so in that way you can command individual brigades as well

Why call it a division then? The whole system doesn't make much sense, it should automagically make a regiment, and have 1 of those under division.

 

[bkuepers]

Why call it a division then? The whole system doesn't make much sense, it should automagically make a regiment, and have 1 of those under division.

Each column is a brigade in the division designer. So up to 5 brigades.

everything below the battalion isn't represented, so up to 5 battalions per brigade and up to 5 brigades per division plus support. It is modeled correctly.

 

[Wolkec]

Each column is a brigade in the division designer. So up to 5 brigades.

everything below the battalion isn't represented, so up to 5 battalions per brigade and up to 5 brigades per division plus support. It is modeled correctly.

Am I the only one who finds it weird that you control 15 battalions directly and brigades/regiment part is entirely skipped? The division designer has abstract images instead of military ones, idk, i'm just bugged about that. Either that or i see it entirely wrong?

 

[Zaku]

Am I the only one who finds it weird that you control 15 battalions directly and brigades/regiment part is entirely skipped? The division designer has abstract images instead of military ones, idk, i'm just bugged about that. Either that or i see it entirely wrong?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure about your issue.
We already answered your question: You can build brigades or regiments, if you use 3-5 battalions in the division designer.

 

[bkuepers]

Am I the only one who finds it weird that you control 15 battalions directly and brigades/regiment part is entirely skipped? The division designer has abstract images instead of military ones, idk, i'm just bugged about that. Either that or i see it entirely wrong?

Brigades aren't skipped. Each column is a brigade. Also, you can turn on nato symbols optionally.

DD6 talks about brigades.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...f-iron-iv-dev-diary-6-division-design.783017/

DD22 shows the nato symbols optional.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...development-diary-28th-of-august-2015.879058/

 

[Wolkec]

Brigades aren't skipped. Each column is a brigade. Also, you can turn on nato symbols optionally.

DD6 talks about brigades.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...f-iron-iv-dev-diary-6-division-design.783017/

DD22 shows the nato symbols optional.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...development-diary-28th-of-august-2015.879058/

Ah makes sense, it's displayed really unintuitively tho. Thanks

 

[HeilLoki]

Nato identifers are on

There are still 3D-models, just the symbol changes from random to NATO. There are no counters in this game.

 

[bkuepers]

You are welcome. I think it is done that way to make army composition designed on the division level. The scale of the game makes for the division to be the smallest grouping that you can command. If they did it at the battalion or a lower level, you would be in command of so many thousands of units the game wouldn't be fun.

 

[albso437]

Each column is a brigade in the division designer. So up to 5 brigades.

everything below the battalion isn't represented, so up to 5 battalions per brigade and up to 5 brigades per division plus support. It is modeled correctly.

Brigades?
The columns are rather Regiments, with typical 3 battalions each, with possibility up to 5 battalions. Unless I have missunderstood something.

 

[Bryartuck]

Brigades?
The columns are rather Regiments, with typical 3 battalions each, with possibility up to 5 battalions. Unless I have missunderstood something.

I agree. However, in game terms ( and as a result, the forum), the terms are used interchangeably, even though IRL, they are not the same thing. Brigade is the term they used for HOI3, and I guess it just carried over.

 

[Killerrabbit]

Hmmm... The OP is clearly just misunderstanding a few parts about a game that is work in progress. (really easy to do)

And posted a nice explanation image about how the military command structure actually is. Unless you're already an expert, you learned something from looking at that. And he's new to the forum. Btw; - Welcome to the forums @Wolkec ! (also kudos to @bkuepers for being nice and explaining things)

Is all those disagree ratings on all his posts really necessary?

 

[trionwolf]

I agree. However, in game terms ( and as a result, the forum), the terms are used interchangeably, even though IRL, they are not the same thing. Brigade is the term they used for HOI3, and I guess it just carried over.

Well they are sort of interchangeable. The US army has brigades the only formation that has regiments is CAV. I was in 3 PLT Alpha CO 1/26th (1st battalion 26th inf regiment, which it was just called for historic reasons) 1st Brigade 1st Infantry Division. Again the US military doesn't really have a formation as a regiment, it gos Fireteam < Squad < Platoon < Company < Battalion < Brigade < Divison. and when i was in the 1st Brigade 1st ID had 2 infantry battalions (mechanized) 1 artillery battalion (self propelled) 1 tank battalion, then a base support battalion. Some organic helo's and then a lot more supports. and headquarters elements. TOE's aren't really as straight forwarded as it would first appear. each company has organic supports (think mechanics and medics) and this goes up to battalion brigade and division level.

 

[No idea]

Nato identifers are IN

He wasnt referring to that, but to counters. That is why he says he doesnt like the "giant men". Counters are NOT in, just a travesty of them.

 

[No idea]

Division is the smallest commandable unit, but the smallest actual unit is the battalion. You need to build your divisions using battalions.
Also you can only use 3-4 battalions in a division and call them a "brigade" so in that way you can command individual brigades as well

Well, combat units seem to be battallion sized, but support ones seem to come in battallion or company sizes also, although the game handles all "bricks" in the divisions designer as "battallions".