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Secret Master

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Basic fact is the AI still pulls off continual suicide invasions: most notably the infamous British landing on the German/Dutch coast during the invasion of France.

Are we even playing the same game? It seems like your experience with TFH is completely different from mine.

I can think of one time it has done that since TFH came out, and it wasn't a suicide invasion. It was a pile of armor that was a credible threat to my invasion of France because my armor wasn't near the damn coast (I was trying something different). A novice player would have been in serious trouble, but I took it in stride. And the invasion did buy France two weeks while I shifted forces around to deal with this threat.]

It's not the UK's fault that France couldn't do anything useful with 2 extra weeks.
 

Charles Reeps

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Are we even playing the same game? It seems like your experience with TFH is completely different from mine.

I can think of one time it has done that since TFH came out, and it wasn't a suicide invasion. It was a pile of armor that was a credible threat to my invasion of France because my armor wasn't near the damn coast (I was trying something different). A novice player would have been in serious trouble, but I took it in stride. And the invasion did buy France two weeks while I shifted forces around to deal with this threat.]

It's not the UK's fault that France couldn't do anything useful with 2 extra weeks.

I've had the same experiences, so much so that I always leave an armoured reaction-corps in Denmark. Even with that the AI sometimes does well enough that the conquest of France is delayed.
 

Samuli00

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There are a ton of things I'd love to see (perhaps enough to warrant a different series) but for HoI two main ones.

1) I'd love to see a better and more realistic approach to research and military equipment. First off I think the example of some mods should be followed and not have, for example, three different techs for small arms (mil, inf, cav). Especially where it doesn't make a lot of sense. What I'm thinking is a system where you research models and then can research (or get events?) upgrades for that model. This could range from rifles and machine guns to tank cannons and air ordinance. Obviously researching a new weapon would provide big benefits whereas the upgrades are smaller and keep your current weaponry from becoming obsolete. Perhaps even add big jumps like moving from bolt-action rifles to semi-autos and then to assault rifles. Something like this would clearly be fairly complex to create when applying it to all branches of the military but if it's done right it could be a much better alternative to the current system. It might even be able to provide some interesting variation between militaries like the US using semi-auto rifles and everyone else using bolt-actions historically.

A system like this could actually be applied to HoI3 albeit in a very crude manner although I've never seen it done. That could be simply having two techs one for "Small Arms Models" that can only be researched every 5-10 years or so with a fair level of difficulty that provides something like +2-5 soft attack and a second tech "Small Arms Improvements" that can be researched like the current system every 1-2 years that's easier and provides only +.3-1 at most to soft attack.

2) The manpower system really bothers me in HoI3. The current system allows you to stockpile manpower to some ridiculous levels and even allows small countries to get manpower levels that are far in excess to a population they might have. What I'm thinking would be better is to have two numbers for manpower: Total Available & Available for Use. Similar to how IC is divided. Research that improves manpower growth shouldn't automatically provide more manpower for use over time but should instead increase the Total Available which represents all civilians of military age that are capable of serving. How you increase the 'Available for Use' should be recruiting/conscripting laws. [Quick Edit: The 'Available for Use' should be a percentage of the 'Total Available' which in turn is only available in emergency/defense of the nation type situations.]

I know that you're probably thinking "what's going to stop us from building massive militaries in a year or two?" and that's a fair question that I think I've got partly figured out with the creation of military/recruiting/training bases. No longer should we be building our armies in factories. What I'm thinking is that you should have the manpower available to make 3 or 4 army groups but you may only have the capacity to train maybe 5 divisions at most unless you invest in building more bases to train them. Alongside this idea is the creation of a new slider that draws from your base IC to maintain and provide for those bases so they can actually be used. The result is you still have the production slider but it's now more focused on actually producing your fancy new models mentioned above while the other slider is the actual training process. I'm thinking with a system like this, and a new less restrictive game, we could even choose different training laws for different bases and decide where units will be trained.
 

21oliver

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and even allows small countries to get manpower levels that are far in excess to a population they might have.

There is no actual formula that is historical that we could even determine whats accurate and whats not. MP is abstracted in the game so its impossible to determine really who has the proper amount or not. When i tried to "reverse engineer" the MP by using a brigade = 3k on average etc... etc... it was my conclusion if anything most minors were seriously nerfed in MP. If you want actual MP data applied no one would ever be able to touch the Soviet Union.

I used to have alot of problems with MP as well, but the entire game is so abstracted that almost nothing has any relation with anything that you could apply historically. They simple decided who was going to have what, how they came to such conclusions i have no idea. It does appear (using the data i have) that the resources are pretty accurate.
 

Bullfrog

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As for production, I'd rather see unit creation somewhat separate from just an IC and manpower requirement. What would be great is a Vicky style unit creation system, whereby the unit can be created as long as all equipment needed is in a national stockpile. For instance, a motorized division requires so many trucks, rifles, machine guns, artillery pieces, mortars, and so forth. The amounts of each could be determined by slider and given a min/max, and stats would differ accordingly.

As long as the minimum numbers of all equipment exist in the stockpile, along with free manpower, the unit could begin assembling. Training time could be based on national laws and doctrine.

This would mean that production would be focused on these various equipment items rather than on units themselves. The IC requirement for training may still need to exist however.

This could work for brigade or division construction of course.

The same system would allow for reinforcements.

This would of course lend itself well to having a separation of manpower and equipment as far as losses on the battlefield, whether by combat or attrition.
 

Bullfrog

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The problem ultimately is as many of us seek detail, the average gamer / non history buff wants simply to build units and conquer the world.
True, though I think we've seen the result of dumbing down the game in order to make it appealing to the masses. HoI 3 launch.
 

Secret Master

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As for production, I'd rather see unit creation somewhat separate from just an IC and manpower requirement. What would be great is a Vicky style unit creation system, whereby the unit can be created as long as all equipment needed is in a national stockpile.

Since HOI isn't a game where selling manufactured items has an impact on the world market, and in turn, an impact on the economy, why include such a system in the game?

Wouldn't that make the game easier if you could just spam trucks, tanks, ships, planes, rifles, and artillery and create units out of it all?
 

21oliver

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I understand the concept, I used to do something similar way back in PBM days, but this is a sort of fast paced PC conquer the world game to the average gamer, im sure the consensus would be to spend more time invading and not building units. The average joe wants to line up and go to war, some of the diehards here want to differentiate rifle types! I just try and keep in mind this is a strategic level game and shouldnt get bogged down too much at the divisional level. If my bro had his way each soldier would be counting ammo...
 

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Are we even playing the same game? It seems like your experience with TFH is completely different from mine.

I can think of one time it has done that since TFH came out, and it wasn't a suicide invasion. It was a pile of armor that was a credible threat to my invasion of France because my armor wasn't near the damn coast (I was trying something different). A novice player would have been in serious trouble, but I took it in stride. And the invasion did buy France two weeks while I shifted forces around to deal with this threat.]

It's not the UK's fault that France couldn't do anything useful with 2 extra weeks.

So what you're saying is . . . you do see suicide invasions, you just don't call them that even though by any definition that's exactly what they are. Let me take my current game as Greece as an example. So far I've seen a whole slew of amphibious invasions by the Italians that stood no chance of success, they've lost 20-30 divisions in these invasions. The landings are always either single-division landings in Crete insufficient in strength to overcome the defences there, or a 7-8 division landing in Chalkida when the adjacent provinces are held by 4-5 divisions a piece and they have to attack across a straight to get anywhere. My forces always just wait for them to run out of supplies and then crush them.

Let's put this simply: the AI still continually throws away its forces in amphibious attacks which a simple examination of the relative strength of attackers and defenders would show are suicide.
 

Bullfrog

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Since HOI isn't a game where selling manufactured items has an impact on the world market, and in turn, an impact on the economy, why include such a system in the game?

Wouldn't that make the game easier if you could just spam trucks, tanks, ships, planes, rifles, and artillery and create units out of it all?

Well there is no reason these items could not be used on the world market/nations within your sphere, or to help beef up an ally or potential ally (Spanish civil war). There are many other such instances from the war which can be used as examples. Lend Lease being a huge one.

As far as difficulty, manufacturing particular items should not be vastly different than creating units, when considering the IC bottleneck as well as resources required. I think balance could be achieved easily with some simple game design.
 

hjz

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above all else what i would really love to see would be a HoI 4 with a Rome total war 2 map campaign. It would remove the chess like feel that the game has and it would provide an incredible dynamic. It would be a revolutionary change , something that each paradox game needs. Its 2013 , it should be time to end this board-like feeling to the games. Keep the main concepts just createa a map where u dont move from square to square, where you dont imagine distances but you see them as your unit travels ; create a map with roads and railways , with bridges ; if you manage to removes these abstract stuff i think it would be amazing.
 

nimrod123

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Well there is no reason these items could not be used on the world market/nations within your sphere, or to help beef up an ally or potential ally (Spanish civil war). There are many other such instances from the war which can be used as examples. Lend Lease being a huge one.

As far as difficulty, manufacturing particular items should not be vastly different than creating units, when considering the IC bottleneck as well as resources required. I think balance could be achieved easily with some simple game design.

a better implementation is the EvW one where units need STR (from MP), ORG (from supply) and EQU (equipment from IC).

when you build a reserve unit it could have full equipment, costing full IC, and reduced STR and ORG.

as to lend lease, i think a combo system may be best. if you have a lend lease deal you get the current IC lending system (with maybe improved convoys), along with a tech sharing option, where you get all the supireor partners techs at N-1 or something (so not top flight gear, but potentially better)
 

21oliver

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Lend lease ....

The Major nations should have priority lists and dole out LL based on that with a % chance to each. As it stands its a % chance and equally divided by nations it accepts. If they USA is going to give out 50 IC, and the two recipients are the UK and Colombia, it shouldnt be 25 each. Also nations shouldnt give out up to 90% and it should be severely limited during times when they are at war (routinely some nations give large bulks of LL out when they need it). There also should be a cap somewhere, its ridiculous that as Canada i could have something like a 13 base IC and have an effective IC over 100 due to LL. Im a minor, not on the front lines...

Keep the main concepts just createa a map where u dont move from square to square, where you dont imagine distances but you see them as your unit travels
Its done that way to sort of give the "war room" feel, Generals moving units on a big table map with pointers, measuring by distance... You will find most diehard gamers will prefer it that way, too much graphics and it will take away the feel of the game.
 

hjz

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listen , i know whats that and this , im saying not to have a chess board , square to square like ; i love the counters et. and all the other graphical enhancements that make the game look more like a war room , but its so ancient its obsolete really. What i wanna see its more dynamic in the way the units are places , instead of having a unit in the city of warsaw i could place it at the outskirts of warsaw , or defending a particular bridge somewhere on dnepr, instead of having it placed on a square thats called province X ; that particular square has a particular river , we cant see the bridge , we must imagine it; a unit in that particular square can only be flanked if other squares nearby are conquered first. Let me give u a graphical example of how awful it looks like.

s67m1i.jpg
 

21oliver

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The thing is this is a strategic level game. I see many suggestions posted here that almost would turn it into a divisional/corps level game, some would even make it a platoon level game.

Imagine if you were back in one of the war rooms in 1939, the best you would have had was a giant map. Sure they could probably eliminate the borders of each of the land masses, but thats done to assist players in maneuvering.

defending a particular bridge somewhere on dnepr

Something like that is beneath the scale of what the game really is. This is a global strategic level game whereby we moves Corps & Armies and conquer nations. I doubt they would ever get into that much detail as not only is it a different scale, the typical gamers arent like most posters here, they want to sit down and conquer the world, not worry about crossing rivers. If a game was ever designed like that it, it would take forever to play.

I wouldnt be against it myself if that type of detail was spread across every element of the game, but then again it would take us a few weeks to play a game! :)
 

unmerged(47283)

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I want to see Naval Construction options that allow you to spread "points" equally among armor, speed or firepower.

And for grand campains, give the option to build a custom Chiefs of Staff. And be given breifings from your cheifs on what actions to take and to be able to approve and disaprove of them.
 

Secret Master

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So what you're saying is . . . you do see suicide invasions, you just don't call them that even though by any definition that's exactly what they are.

But that's not actually what I said.

I can think of one time it has done that since TFH came out, and it wasn't a suicide invasion. It was a pile of armor that was a credible threat to my invasion of France because my armor wasn't near the damn coast (I was trying something different). A novice player would have been in serious trouble, but I took it in stride. And the invasion did buy France two weeks while I shifted forces around to deal with this threat.

A credible threat is not a suicide invasion. An invasion that costs me two weeks in my invasion of France is not a suicide invasion. And an invasion that forces me to redirect my armor is not a suicide invasion.

If that's the standard for suicide invasions, then any invasion that fails is a suicide invasion. In which case, the AI should just never do them. Which is what the AI has been told to do in various versions of the game, which also resulted in players never bothering to garrison the west as Germany.

The suicide invasions from earlier versions were pointless invasions of Fortress Europa in 1941 before Barbarossa even launched by the UK. And launching them several times in a row. And launching them even without the USA in the war. And launching them when the damned Italians are rampaging through Egypt and seizing the Suez. Those were suicide invasions.

As for invasions of AI nations, in about 50% of my games the Brits successful invade Italy and either completely take them out, or force a German response that mimics the real war (although the Brits love to invade northeastern Italy instead of the boot for some reason).

Let's put this simply: the AI still continually throws away its forces in amphibious attacks which a simple examination of the relative strength of attackers and defenders would show are suicide.

No, let's call it what it really is: the AI's ability to utilize amphibious assaults is 1000% better than it was in the base game or SF. Now, Japan is a real threat in the Pacific. The Italians are a threat in the Med. And the UK is a global threat to anyone who fails to garrison their assets properly. The only failed invasions (where I have not intervened directly to counter it at significant cost) I have seen in TFH are a bizarrely set up counter-invasion of Norway after the Germans took it (the AI send too many divisions to a port with small capacity and the invasion died on the vine) and an Allied invasion near Vladivostok after I goaded them into war (I was the Soviets). Again, the invasion withed on the vine because they didn't take a major port, so I massacred the Americans and went back to planning an invasion of Britain.

The number of successful AI invasions is staggering. I see Italy seriously threatened and compromised by Allied invasions half the time (the other half of the time, the UK gets tied down somewhere else). I see Japan take everything they want in the Pacific, and if no one stops them, they seize India. The only thing I've never seen the AI execute at all in TFH is Sea Lion.

Oh, and the USA usually executes Operation Torch like a pro, but to be honest, that's the easiest invasion in the game as Vichy isn't that difficult to overcome. :p
 
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