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21oliver

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amphibious warfare

I was always surprised by this, even before TFH which everyone clamored for this. Does anyone actually realize how little amphibious landings there were taken in context with the whole war? And remove the US from the equation and what do you have?

I still go back to having more randomness in the game. You can include all the things people are posting here and as long as i know everything the enemy (SP AI) is going to do, where, when and how.....it wont matter ill still be bored in a matter of days. I want the game to make me think, make me plan, make me adapt. It really doesnt do much of that at all.
 

jju_57

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I take issue with a cpuple of things you said:

In reality, units, especially those of the Wehrmacht/SS, did not just go "puff" and dissappear from existence unless encircled. Units fought on with very low man-power.

Then how do you explain the surrender of hundreds of thousands of troops that happened a number of times? French, Italian, Russian, German and to lesser extent UK and even US troops surrendered with massive amount of troops left. And not all were encircled either.


7) Nukes - almost no influence on the game until late, by which time you've won already.

So in other words they are 100% historical in their representation.

10) Supply. Basically this seems to do nothing but impose annoyance on the player by hitting them with problems that they cannot solve because the AI controls supply. If supplies were distributed through the HQs it would make so much more sense.

Supply works great for those that know its limitation. if you don't want supply they have the arcade mode for you already in the game.
 

Secret Master

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2) Diplomacy. Pretty much all of it is taken up with gimmicky features that you don't need and which anyway are useless since the game's direction was swerved away from sand-box.

Really? Useless? The threat mechanic, coupled with AI scripts, is a vital part of gameplay. I can do amazing things by managing my threat in certain ways. I can also goad the AI into making ahistorical decisions by managing threat in other ways.

3) Espionage. Ditto.

Covert ops are abused by tons of players to slow down enemy units.

As for plain ol' espionage, I'll just say this: I consider trying to coup Italy to be a standard part of playing France.

Now, you wanna see maximum fun? Maximum fun is playing Nat. China and stealing techs from the majors, like electronic and mechanic computers from the British or SHBB and CV from Japan. Any country that is far enough behind in techs should take my advice and just invest in espionage, because it ends up being faster and cheaper than trying to catch up (until the Allies enact harsher laws).

6) Weather. I almost never notice this.

Just because you never notice this doesn't mean it isn't having an impact. If you read the strategy guide, or just browse around the forum, there are plenty of screenshots showing horrendous penalties from weather.

8) Piercing/penetrating/wild-card/combat-events and everything else that goes on continually but averages out so you don't notice it.

Umm, if you aren't optimizing penetration or noticing it's effects, you aren't really playing the game well. It's not the only important thing in combat, but the effects are noticeable and tangible.

9) Brigades. In theory this is a great way of allowing the player to decide the size/shape of their formations, but in reality it doesn't add much since you're always aiming for the same few lay-outs. The one thing is this allows independent brigades, but this could be done another way (e.g., small divisions).

TFH solved this problem to my satisfaction. There are so many interesting possibilities for divisions (which mesh well with other parts of the game), that one of the largest sections of the strategy guide is the division composition part. Hell, I had to shorten it a bit because it was overwhelming the rest of the guide while I was writing it! Even on the forum, you want to see bitter disagreement, just start a thread on division composition.

4) Amphibious landings should be planned by the AI to include enough troops to overcome the defenders known to be in the area of the landing-zone. Why the AI is not programmed this way I have no idea.

Have you been playing TFH in the Pacific? The last 10 times Japan attacked my islands, they sent 6 MAR divisons to take islands garrisoned with 1 lousy GAR brigade. If that's not enough concentration of force, then I don't know what is.

While I can defend my possessions anywhere in the world from amphibious attack, the AI doesn't fool around anymore. Multi-division landings, with some divisions on adjacent beach provinces, is the norm.

So in other words they are 100% historical in their representation.

I'm actually not sure how much more potent they could even be. If I nuke your capital, not only do you take a huge NU loss, but I annihilate your stockpiles and all facilities in the province.

I suppose you could make them automatic "I win" bombs, but they sure as hell weren't that historically. Even Japan, in HOI3 terms, had been nuked twice AND suffered huge NU losses from 4 years of convoy raiding they failed to deal with AND lost their pride of the fleet AND had VP provinces occupied by the Allies AND had been subjected to brutal strategic bombing for years (to the point where some cities had been practically level to the ground without nukes anyway) and they only just barely surrendered at that point.

And even with all of that, there was still an attempt to overthrow the government of Japan to continue the damn war (the Kyujuo Incident).

Does that sound like "We dropped a nuke, and Japan wet their pants and surrendered"? No. We could debate the use of the atomic bombs against Japan all day, but anyone who knows their history knows that they were the capstone to an extended period of warfare.


Supply works great for those that know its limitation. if you don't want supply they have the arcade mode for you already in the game.

Yep. The supply system has its quirks, but it does its job of preventing 100 ARM divisions from rolling into Manchuria. Or even 50 for that matter. ;)
 

jju_57

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SM, note sure if my point about atomic weapons came across in a way that I didn't intend it. Basically I think HOI got atomic weapons and their impact pretty well. The complaint was you get them late after the war was already decided. And That was why I said they seemed accurate to me.

Besides these are city strategic weapons and weren't mean to destroy land forces.
 

misterbean

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SM, I tried to follow the general guidelines in your Karelia guide, so I can honestly say: the diversity is amazing.
mountaineers for Turkey and Persia, 3inf/1art for the Far East, 2inf/1art/1at or 2inf/2art in the west.
I had an Armour Corps consisting of:
1 exploit division (Larm/2AC), 2armour divisions (2arm/mot/2spart) for general purpose, 1 armour division (2arm/mot/ac/TD) to use against tanks.

So people, there is enough opportunity for diversity in the game, both in compostion and tech level of your divisions. You just have to play around with it a bit, see which ones would be best for luring enemies into a giant swamp for instance.
 

Secret Master

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I shouldn't have quoted you. I should have quoted FOARP. I was just capitalizing on your comment and expanding on it.

There are some players that wonder why dropping a nuke doesn't just cause a surrender. And the problem is that dropping the atomic bombs did not cause Japan to surrender by themselves.


I did have a feature I'd like to see in HOI4, though:

Practicals should not decay while relevant units are in the queue and actually making progress on their construction. For big ticket items (ships, strategic bombers), it seems silly that your workers get dumber as time goes on until they finish another big ticket item.

"Alright, we just finished building 4 Iowa battleships. We're going to build 4 more."

"Great. We know how to build them so much better now, we can do it faster. I have this handy trick I learned about using crescent wrenches."

Six months later.

"Why aren't you using a crescent wrench?"

"What's a crescent wrench?"

"I thought you knew how to build an Iowa class battleship!"

"Well, I did six months ago, but my knowledge gets rusty over time since I don't use it."

"But aren't you using it now?"

"I don't see the connection. I don't get smarter until the ship is completed. I just get dumber."
 

DCyDe

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More focus on politics/country-personalization, it should be possible again to conquer the world as Stalinist Liberia or National-Socialist Panama like in HoI2, less micromanagement of armies. Summarized more game and less History Book Simulation.
 

Secret Master

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21oliver

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tyvm-


Id like to see this changed to make some sense....

Im playing the Soviets and see 1) the USA joins the Allies and 2) they fire day of infamy so i go and check and see exactly whom they are at war with (sometimes its only one of the Majors), and sure enough Im their biggest threat 73.6%, but they dont DOW me!
 
Last edited:

FOARP

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Then how do you explain the surrender of hundreds of thousands of troops that happened a number of times? French, Italian, Russian, German and to lesser extent UK and even US troops surrendered with massive amount of troops left. And not all were encircled either.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be surrenders. I'm saying that low-strength units with 100% org shouldn't just shatter and re-appear in the capital with zero MP, leading to a snow-ball effect and amplifying the effect of low MP. Historically, yes, some units surrendered, even in Japanese army, though almost always when surrounded, even in armies famous for being somewhat unenthusiastic like the Italians.

I liked the way that units in AoD would "fight to the death" when surrounded, suffering much higher rate of loss after Org got low. Low strength units shouldn't just shatter, historically well equipped and motivated units which had low strength in e.g., the Wehrmacht, kept fighting to the last bullet.

So in other words they are 100% historical in their representation.

Maybe, but the lack of any possibility of tactical use makes them useless unless you just want to end the way in a bloodless fashion - which is no fun. Historically, tactical use was considered from early on, and was planned for Operation Olympic.

Supply works great for those that know its limitation. if you don't want supply they have the arcade mode for you already in the game.

So you don't see any problems with my divisions fighting in Persia being supplied from Rangoon and thus suffering massive under-supply that cannot be solved? You don't see any problem with the supply AI STILL occasionally just deciding not to supply a particular land-mass? At the very least, the player needs more control over supply. You seem to be assuming I'm a noob complaining about not being able to pour hundreds of divisions into low-infra territory, instead I'm taking about the frustration I get trying to supply a dozen divisions or so in the middle east because the AI decides they should be supplied from thousands of miles away.
 

Cybvep

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Practicals should not decay while relevant units are in the queue and actually making progress on their construction. For big ticket items (ships, strategic bombers), it seems silly that your workers get dumber as time goes on until they finish another big ticket item.
Agreed. It was rather annoying, too.

Maybe, but the lack of any possibility of tactical use makes them useless unless you just want to end the way in a bloodless fashion - which is no fun.
Nukes in HOI3 were ok IMO. You could get them much earlier than IRL if you focused on them, but it was costly, as it should be. They would be more useful for an average player if the typical end game date wasn't 1942. Everything happened too fast in HOI3 IMO. HOI2 wasn't much better in that regard.

(...) instead I'm taking about the frustration I get trying to supply a dozen divisions or so in the middle east because the AI decides they should be supplied from thousands of miles away.
It's not really the AI. It's the dreaded one-supply-depot-per-continous-landmass-system. Yuck. I usually had to edit my save games in order to "divide" some regions here and there by reducing the infra to 1, so that the system was forced to create two depots instead of one.
 

FOARP

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Nukes in HOI3 were ok IMO. You could get them much earlier than IRL if you focused on them, but it was costly, as it should be. They would be more useful for an average player if the typical end game date wasn't 1942. Everything happened too fast in HOI3 IMO. HOI2 wasn't much better in that regard.

Put like that, except for the lack of tactical use, I guess you're right - the real issue is the war ending early. How to solve this? Some ideas:

1) A Home Guard/Volkssturm mechanism like the one I described above. This would also solve the problem of the UK/Japan not defending their home turf properly.

2) A way of trading IC for manpower, basically de-activating IC in return for a manpower boost, allowing you to stave off a collapse in manpower at the expense of crippling industry. Naturally, of course, both building IC, and re-activating IC where the workers have been mobilised, should cost MP.

It's not really the AI. It's the dreaded one-supply-depot-per-continous-landmass-system. Yuck. I usually had to edit my save games in order to "divide" some regions here and there by reducing the infra to 1, so that the system was forced to create two depots instead of one.

Yup, I was complaining about the locations the AI choses to put the depos in, but I guess if you're fighting at both ends of a continent, being able to decide where the single depo that's supposed to supply both fronts is located doesn't solve that many problems.
 
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21oliver

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The game doesnt handle casualties nor attrition well. Nor does it represent the time necessary to plan, prepare and carry-out warfare. It is far too easy in game to use the same units and conquer nation after nation quickly and efficiently without the units ever falling apart (regardless if you use reinforcements or not). I once conquered most of the world as Nat Spain with about a dozen INFx3 ARTx1 divisions, with no reinforcements. It just simply doesnt happen that way.

I would rate all the militaries in the World (A-F) with requirements to move up or down the list. Each "level" would have buffs/nerfs assigned to it to represent the quality of your Military (incl. General Staff, Officer Corps, Training Academies, Arms manufacturing and more). You would have to 1st decide to invade someone. Then depending on your "level" it would be X amount of days before you could actually launch an invasion. When it is concluded you would have to essentially repeat the process, with each "level" having a specific time before they could re-organize, ship and re-engage into another combat situation (special circumstances could modify this). Casualties would higher as would attrition, weather and terrain would have a greater impact as would Officers Stats. It would be much more difficult to upgrade units at the front, reinforcements too would take longer.

Germany was the greatest military vehicle at the start of the war and how much did they do? Poland in 39, France/Low Countries/Norway in 40, Balkans/Barbarossa 41. As it stands now, as the Soviets or Germany you can conquer most of Europe and the middle east and more by the end of 1939.... It would be nice if it were more realistic. I understand why they do it, the casual gamer wants to simply conquer the world, but they could bring it in line a little bit more imo...
 

Slyguy3129

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I, for one think it would be pretty cool if the HOI series made a move away from 2d maps to full 3d maps (which would provide more tactical situations, etc). What about you?

3D? That isn't going to happen thankfully. What they need to fix/add is the naval aspect of the game.
 

21oliver

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The thing is that most players play this type of game for exactly what it is. It provides more "wargame feel", most of us dont want 3d or more graphics. I myself play vanilla, because the mods mess with the "feel" of the game for me by changing pictures, counters, colors, screens etc... There are plenty of games out there that meet the need for that modern graphic intensive game. This is more old school with the generals moving units around on a table top.
 

21oliver

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Id like to see a system whereby when we get 5 brigade divisions we can build single brigades and assign them to divisions and it will be easier to Merge them. It can be a task if your say the Soviets and have hundreds of divisions all over the place and want to add some brigades to one front.
 

FOARP

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Have you been playing TFH in the Pacific? The last 10 times Japan attacked my islands, they sent 6 MAR divisons to take islands garrisoned with 1 lousy GAR brigade. If that's not enough concentration of force, then I don't know what is.

While I can defend my possessions anywhere in the world from amphibious attack, the AI doesn't fool around anymore. Multi-division landings, with some divisions on adjacent beach provinces, is the norm.

Basic fact is the AI still pulls off continual suicide invasions: most notably the infamous British landing on the German/Dutch coast during the invasion of France.
 

LarryLeica

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...I read how pissed off Hitler was when a French sub fled with most if not all the French Gold.

Goering wanted it for his dentures...

As for HOI4:

No more bandaids covering up for poor mechanics, like mystery manpower straight from the sky, or how German tanks are really batmobiles-of-doom on Tuesday (blitzkrieg decision) then on Wednesday (blitzkrieg expires) suddenly they are clown cars with water pistols.

No sprites, counters only. Sprites are completely useless and uninformative.

Redo the UI completely.

More dynamic wargoal system.

Properly balanced espionage.

No 'practical' idiocy, like decaying while you are building the stuff. In a game with this timespan, practicals wouldn't decay, they could remain static if unused. Practical decay may be relevant over 50-100 years (you lose a skilled generation or two) but not 10-15.

etc...
 
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