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Cybvep

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Nope. The current system has nothing to do with reality. There is no specialisation so to speak of, every major country ends up with the same tank/aircraft techs, you can easily refocus your whole research in one day, important people like Goering have almost no influence on it and you have total control over it. No, I don't think this has much to do with reality at all. And don't even mention "historical year".
 

comsubpac

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Nope. The current system has nothing to do with reality. There is no specialisation so to speak of, every major country ends up with the same tank/aircraft techs, you can easily refocus your whole research in one day, important people like Goering have almost no influence on it and you have total control over it. No, I don't think this has much to do with reality at all. And don't even mention "historical year".

but that is the entire point of the system.
and btw goering didn't actually have much influence over the technology since he wasn't really interested.
 

pnt

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You mean sth like this? If yes, then I think that the idea certainly has potential.

Well, if you read what I wrote carefully you will see that it was not exactly like this in terms of details, but the general idea would be to have a set of strategic priorities and a tree of leadership positions with more and more specific tasks. You would then be able to assign appropriate leaders and teams to each level.

The idea of strategic priorities is, however, that it really should reflect goals rather than hardware, and the leader at each level should be able to interpret these goals within the realm is his influence. I gave some specific examples above.

The leaders for the main four branches would not be the commanders of those branches, though. Rather, in late war Germany, Speer was in overall charge of industrial production, while Milch was in charge of aircraft production. At the same time, Goring was the operational commander of the Luftwaffe.

And each leaf in each general area could also be a little different. But by-and-large, this was how the research was organized in reality. The air ministry, for instance, issued a request for a certain type of aircraft, which the companies then were bidding to design and build it. This would be represented by the flow of leadership from the branch level to the lower leafs. However, as noted above the exact distribution and bonuses (essentially how the strategic priorities were implemented) would depend on the people assigned to implement them.

I would suggest mixing doctrines with technologies, however, since the two were closely related. So, for instance, if you have a leaf under the army which would be called mobile warfare, it could include both doctrines and technologies for tanks, cavalry, motorized and mechanized infantry, and self-propelled artillery. However, there could be mutual benefits from a general artillery and fire support leaf, containing field artillery, rockets, and perhaps also AA.
 

comsubpac

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Well, if you read what I wrote carefully you will see that it was not exactly like this in terms of details, but the general idea would be to have a set of strategic priorities and a tree of leadership positions with more and more specific tasks. You would then be able to assign appropriate leaders and teams to each level.

The idea of strategic priorities is, however, that it really should reflect goals rather than hardware, and the leader at each level should be able to interpret these goals within the realm is his influence. I gave some specific examples above.

The leaders for the main four branches would not be the commanders of those branches, though. Rather, in late war Germany, Speer was in overall charge of industrial production, while Milch was in charge of aircraft production. At the same time, Goring was the operational commander of the Luftwaffe.

And each leaf in each general area could also be a little different. But by-and-large, this was how the research was organized in reality. The air ministry, for instance, issued a request for a certain type of aircraft, which the companies then were bidding to design. This would be represented by the flow of leadership from the branch level to the lower leafs. However, as noted above the exact distribution and bonuses (essentially how the strategic priorities were implemented) would depend on the people assigned to implement them.

I would suggest mixing doctrines with technologies, however, since the two were closely related. So, for instance, if you have a leaf under the army which would be called mobile warfare, it could include both doctrines and technologies for tanks, cavalry, motorized and mechanized infantry, and self-propelled artillery. However, there could be mutual benefits from a general artillery and fire support leaf, containing field artillery, rockets, and perhaps also AA.

but it worked completely different. as an example: here is basically how the development of a plane worked:
the "Generalluftzeugmeister" in the "Reichsluftfahrtministerium" Ernst Udet and his staff did set the specifications they envisioned for a new plane and those were made more or less public. then all important companies (and often also unimportant and unrelated companies) started developing prototypes. those were tested by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium and the best were developed further. after a while the best one was picked up and the production was started often by other companies too because that was the only way to provide the necessary numbers.
if you accept that it is abstracted and that it is necessary that all countries have the same models the current system is fairly "realistic". just imagine you are ordering you industry to provide you with a better engine or whatever you need at that moment.
speer was only coordinating the efforts better but development was still mostly in the hand of the companies itself (expect the wunderwaffen under the SS). additionally having the three branches seperated too much is nonsense because in the end the same companies worked for all. MAN developed engines for tanks and uboots and planes but they did not necessarily build them all themselves or even developed all models. assigning one team is simply nonsense.
 

Herbinator

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Oh, maybe a "worldmap" not flat and wrong, but something more like that?
(image of globe here) ...
Yes, it is called radian referencing. So a sphere may be represented by 2 numbers. Even depth, surface, or airborne may be represented either by varying the radius. Or alternatively, simply by stating a -1, 0, or +1 constant. The radians are easily converted to a cartesian system (an X and Y map grid) for ease-of-programming purposes.
X = azmith / (360 / (2 * pi * "radius"))
Y = angle / (360 / (2 * pi * "radius"))

azimuth = X * (360 / (2 * pi * "radius"))
angle = Y * (360 / (2 * pi * "radius"))

Still, it would be much better to simply tap into a geographic/GPS database and work off "real" terrain.
 

pnt

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but it worked completely different. as an example: here is basically how the development of a plane worked:
the "Generalluftzeugmeister" in the "Reichsluftfahrtministerium" Ernst Udet and his staff did set the specifications they envisioned for a new plane and those were made more or less public. then all important companies (and often also unimportant and unrelated companies) started developing prototypes. those were tested by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium and the best were developed further. after a while the best one was picked up and the production was started often by other companies too because that was the only way to provide the necessary numbers.
if you accept that it is abstracted and that it is necessary that all countries have the same models the current system is fairly "realistic". just imagine you are ordering you industry to provide you with a better engine or whatever you need at that moment.
speer was only coordinating the efforts better but development was still mostly in the hand of the companies itself (expect the wunderwaffen under the SS). additionally having the three branches seperated too much is nonsense because in the end the same companies worked for all. MAN developed engines for tanks and uboots and planes but they did not necessarily build them all themselves or even developed all models. assigning one team is simply nonsense.

I think that your attempts at "defending" the game in its current form whenever you can are well meant but slightly misguided. The current research system is functional as support for a pure combat simulator, but it fails miserably in several ways, all of which are addressed by the proposed system.

When it comes to realism, there it fails both in terms of process and outcomes. In terms of outcomes, the current system ensures that at any given time all countries that actively participate in the conflict have exactly the same models of every item that they use. The obvious question is then what is the point in having a research system at all? To make sure that minors were left behind and that items that countries don't need and do not build would have been worse than corresponding items from other countries that do build them? And a process requiring a demi-god player with 20/20 hindsight to directly intervene to decide exactly when certain items will become available is hardly an ideal reflection of history.

Another problem, which I mentioned in a previous post, is that the AI has no way of correlating the techs in the tree with the goals it is trying to achieve, and thus has to rely on very explicit scripting to produce the in itself rather undesirable outcome above. A system that relates strategic goals to research goals is not only much closer to the historic process, but will also be a natural way for the AI to interact with the research system.

If you had read the details of what I wrote, you would see that the player would never have to take decisions at the level of developing a specific engine (as a side note, major German aircraft engines were generally designed by Daimler-Benz and BMW, not MAN). It also makes no sense to simulate bidding, prototyping, and the chain of subcontractors. However, having several light (Bf, Fw) or medium (Do, He, Ju) aircraft manufacturers clearly created more opportunities for a more diverse fleet of aircraft. In the general category of light aircraft, you will be able to get slightly different results by giving the primary responsibility to one or more of the teams available. Furthermore, in the light aircraft category you will develop technologies for fighters, close-support aircraft, carrier aircraft, etc, depending on the set strategic priorities, as well as the preferences of the design teams and their superiors.

In terms of the details of the German process, you miss a number of details (Udet was, for instance, not the contemporary of Milch), but this does not matter. The issue at hand is that the proposed system provides a very good general schematic for the decision flow in all countries, whether they had a market economy like the US, or were communist like the USSR. The challenge is to create the right level of abstraction, and the proposed system does just that.

That said, there is a number of aspects where one could develop various implementations. For instance, instead of splitting it up into convoys, strategic air power, etc, one one could have a single global strategic warfare goal, which could be assigned offensive and defensive priorities, and it could have naval and aerial subgoals. Thus, Germany could have a primarily defensive aerial strategic warfare goal, and an offensive naval strategic warfare goal, while Britain would have the opposite, with both having significant weights assigned to each, while the USSR probably could have very low weights assigned to strategic warfare in all forms. This would mean that Germany would be more likely to research subs than escorts, and interceptors rather than heavy bombers or long range fighters. The USSR, on the other hand, would probably focus on land combat, which the aircraft researchers would interpret as primarily tactical support aircraft and short-range fighter-bombers. The latter could, of course, be used as interceptors as well, but would be driven by different needs, and perhaps have slightly different technical emphasis and doctrines (In reality, for instance, the Soviet fighters had very poor high-altitude performance since their focus was battlefield support. Incidentally, this was also true for the Fw190, which ended up as their German equivalent.)

Regardless of how the details are implemented, however, the proposed system will create a more interesting and historically correct process, with a natural historic bias in terms of outcomes, and a way for the AI to correlate research with its strategic priorities. This would be a major advance compared with what HOI3 can offer.
 
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Cybvep

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Pnt, if I understood you correctly, you want a system functioning more on the strategic level with hierarchy trees for various military-industrial branches and slightly randomised results. The idea is quite intriguing and in fact, it fits the grand strategy scope quite well. With a proper interface, the system wouldn't even need to be overly complex or micromanagement-intensive and it would increase variety. Connecting doctrines with techs is especially interesting.
 

unmerged(236784)

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Clarification

Hexes
map that shows changing conditions ie, mud, frozen, infra, ect. without having to tab around

Forgive me for being dense, but do you mean that when viewing the map you would like an option so that all of the changes in state for each of the various mapmodes display at the same time?

As an example, if at the start of a game hour:

1. A province goes from mud to frozen, while
2. Its infra goes up a level and
3. The supply of fuel drops, and
4. The revolt risk jumps by one

All that should display on the map at the same time for the province?

:confused:
 

Nicolas I

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There's a what feature? Goes to show what I know...

H12.0 Strategic Redeployment

Strategic Redeployment is a method of quickly moving units by train from one area to the next. They may move ahead of their Supply line and will carry Supplies with them, which should hold them over until Supply can be re-established. Strategically Redeploying units will move them at a speed of 20 MPH per point of Infrastructure level, so actual speed will vary according to the Infrastructure levels along the route. These units will lose 1 Organisation per day, and will use twice as much in Supplies. Units that use Fuel, such as tanks, will not consume Fuel while being Strategically Redeployed.

HOI3 Manual p.50

Use Control+Right Click for the option...
 

Invalid Name

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Do not improve graphics. To many great franchises have been ruined by graphics. As far as I am concerned never make an hoi4, just keep trying to make hoi3 perfect. Maybe once its near perfect release it as hoi gold or something like that (or just call it hoi4, like if iphone just called the 4s the iphone 5 stupid apple fanatics would have been like OMG ITS SO AWESOME and there stock would not have crashed like crazy) so you can increase sales and make more money. More realism, better AI, better balancing just keep focusing on that. Dont be like EU3 where any progress on balancing gets reverted back or farther back than 0 when a new expansion comes out (It really sucks when the golden hoard shows soviet Russia whats what by 1450) Maybe specific factories and army training bases? deployment anywhere on your mainland is not very realistic. Capturing ships, planes and armor should be possible. Better organization/control over minors for invasions/support would be nice. Feedback for POW's/ destroyed units. And make it harder to exploit the game. Technology, diplomacy, intelligence, officers, should be a developed attribute of your nation. OH my officers/spies are low, I will just instantly put 30 leadership in it for a month and it will be fine, does not make much sense. Same thing with production, more foresight and planning should be needed, and should be sectors that are improved/reduced. Hey factory designed to make tanks, start making food, ammunition and submarine radar. Doesn't make much sense. I know I am one of the few people who love realism and have a total disdain for simplicity, easiness, and a requirement for learning, but that is how i hope the game progresses. Accessiblilty and streamlining are the most coveted word in the video game world and most painful for me as countless games have been ruined by it. If your going to make it easier, dont dumb it down. But yea, just keep balancing it, and try and make options so that it is not a complete pain in the butt if you dont want it to be.
 

Nicolas I

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) OH my officers/spies are low, I will just instantly put 30 leadership in it for a month and it will be fine, does not make much sense.

A simple idea to avoid dramatic (and irrealistic) moves with the leadership, put limits to the slider like in CK. The limits may depend on the political party/system, state of peace or war, and be (partly) country specific.
 
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unmerged(236784)

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Slow and Steady

A simple idea to avoid dramatic (and irrealistic) moves with the leadership, put limits to the slider like in CK. The limits may depend on the political party/system, state of peace or war, and be (partly) country specific.

Good idea. Allow the value to drop immediately as much as wanted in any area, but limit increases in a given area to a per month percentage.

:cool:

Come to think of it, extend this idea to the production slider. Nothing like upgrading production facilities from one to ten divisions in 24 hours. :D
 
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Same thing with production, more foresight and planning should be needed, and should be sectors that are improved/reduced. Hey factory designed to make tanks, start making food, ammunition and submarine radar.
Yeah, we should have some combination of Vicky 2/Supreme Ruler production models.
 
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