HoI 4 - Non-aligned nations working poorly with Monarchist Germany's anti-communist alliance

[Khanor]

Description of issue
Non-aligned nations working poorly with Monarchist Germany's anti-communist alliance

Game Version
[1.5.1] & [dbb6]

Enabled DLC
All of the above

Do you have mods enabled?
Yes

Description
Unaligned nations have crazy negative modifiers to joining factions. In my Monarchist Germany playthrough (ironman + historical), I had gone down Baltic guarantees, "Our Place in the Sun" and "The Central Powers", when the Soviets came for Latvia in 1940-ish. I then just finished the "Central Powers" focus and invited Latvia, saving them from annexation. Then I did the trade with Poland and now I had three faction members, counting myself. And the long fight with the Soviets was on.

However, while never being able to contemplate fighting the Allies even, having way to much stuff to do in a short time, that is not the issue in this bug report.

The problem now was no more nations wanting to join the faction. Lithuania had some -70 reasons to join, while Estonia had negative one hundred-something. Romania wouldn't join either, because of the crazy negative modifiers to joining factions non-aligned nations have.

So either some of the earlier anti-communist focuses needs to give these nations more reasons to team up with Germany, or non-aligned needs to be more willing to get into factions. After all, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania did join the more extreme historical WW2 Germany. Personally, I'm a fan of doing both. Both specific increases in willingness to ally the Kaiserreich from focuses (AI modifier alliance +150, +200, or something) and non-aligned nations in general need a very slight increase in willingness to get into factions. This would give generic nations more options in the way they play. In an old Austria-Hungary game I could create a factions with old nationalist China, but not invite them or other non-subject members after already having a faction.

Bonus issue, nationalist Spain, while probably wanting to join Japan, but not doing so because of the idea added after the civil war, should maybe consider joining Monarchist Germany even if fascist? Being up against the Soviets and half the world (allies having taken over China and Japan), I'd take all the faction members I could get at that point. Maybe ditch the requirement of 30% non-aligned to join a faction led by someone non-aligned? And also, even nationalist Spain probably shouldn't have 100% support for the falangists from the very start.

Steps to Reproduce
Go down the "Revive the Kaiserreich" path as Germany. Observe all eastern European nations (including Finland after doing the "Support the Finns" focus) other than Poland being damn unwilling to get into your faction (Central Powers or otherwise) unless directly attacked by the Soviets (e.g. Latvia in this case).

Only mod enabled was "Coloured Buttons"



Previous issues with WtT:

- Issues for nationalist China

- Monarchist Germany/Hungary

- Monarchist Germany/Romania

 

[deanwebb]

Agree with this one, same issue for me. I had more luck joining Poland's faction after the Russkies attacked.

 

[Bratyn]

Could you upload a savegame? It would be helpful to know what the modifiers to their willingness were.

 

[Khanor]

Agree with this one, same issue for me. I had more luck joining Poland's faction after the Russkies attacked.

Yeah. Maybe "Bulwark against Bolshevism" should give a very slight AI increase in willingness to ally and befriend Germany. This could apply for Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania. "Danzig for Guarantees" already does this for Poland should they accept, but to a much more extreme degree should they accept, with +200 reasons to both befriend and ally Germany, and -200 reasons to both befriend and ally the United Kingdom. Alternatively make Finland and the Baltics get this ai strategy modifier for Germany taking their relevant focuses. The code would look like this:

add_ai_strategy = {
    type = befriend
    id = "ROOT" ### Or use GER or FROM if not in a German focus or event
    value = 10
}
add_ai_strategy = {
    type = alliance
    id = "ROOT"
    value = 10
}

And while that would not be enough to get Finland and the Baltics to join my faction, it would barely do it for Romania in the relevant game at least. Currently it seems guaranteeing the Baltics is a noobtrap to bring you into war with the Soviets early-ish though. So it's probably never worth it for what they bring (especially since only the attacked one will join your faction).

Could you upload a savegame? It would be helpful to know what the modifiers to their willingness were.

Unfortunately I didn't keep and upload the save for this bugreport unlike the one for Nationalist China, thinking it wouldn't be necessary I did however start a new ironman game as monarchist Germany (overwriting the same filename), with the same version and graphics mod. I'll upload the new one here. You'll be pleased to know I did solve the problem of not being able to ally Romania in the new game, though the way I did this was weird. I mostly ignored the anti-communist route and focused on the west, generating a crazy high 50 world tension through capitulating France and other stuff (even though it was initially a defensive war). This made Romania barely willing to ally by means of finding me threatening and world tension being high.

In any case, I do remember what modifiers to joining I found most egregious. On the negative side it's probably the -100 or so for simply being non-aligned (the neutrality idea should be used instead for countries you really want to keep out of wars I think). Maybe reduce this just a touch. But even better would probably be to add positive reasons to join a faction if some scary nation has claims on you, or some other nation being threatening to them. Maybe something like "Soviet Union has claims on Romania +40" or "Romania finds the Soviet Union threatening +40".

Other than that, the new savefile, while not having as much of the issue mentioned in this thread as the original German Empire save, does have some of the other bugs I've posted or commented on in other people's threads, if you're willing to look into those too:

• Austria-Hungary turning into Greater Hungary (very much present in the save, also there's three Austria-Hungaries as I reloaded the save after the triggers were in place to reunify Austria-Hungary. The event could maybe be limited to fire once to avoid this (fire_only_once = yes), maybe at least the final formation event, probably not the individual accepts. It also cleared nearly all the nations combined unlocked building slots, due to the reannexations. Just check out the Austrian and Czechoslovakian cores and you'll see what I mean. Also, maybe Austria-Hungary could get Otto von Habsburg as the non-aligned leader if Hungary hasn't gone down the Austria-Hungary path (to avoid duplicate leaders), for whichever nation out of Austria/Hungary/Czechoslovakia that leads it after reunification?

• Hungary not being able to do trade deal with Germany (in their historical path) due to too specific requirements for Germany's government (currently requires fascist, but should be fine for everything, or at least anything not Communist).

• Kaiser not returning after going to war with the Netherlands (read in the 1.5.2 beta post that this now fires upon controlling Holland, so good job there. But maybe also check for the Netherlands being a subject of Germany in case they're still puppeted before the event can fire? Also would let if fire for those that reloaded a save with a puppeted Netherlands).

• Not posted this before, but maybe Germany not being fascist makes Japan go to war with the US to quickly? Maybe make the pact with Germany and Italy only be a bypass if both the nations are non-fascist, so they do it with just Italy (okay, this makes the name a bit weird, but maybe there could be dynamic focus names?). This is a legit concern and not just bitterness from having to fight the US, as I was actually damn impressed with the infantry wall the UK put up after I invaded.

• Make "Break the Anglo-French Colonial Hegemony" also give claims on Palau (state 647), Papua (state 523) and Samoa (state 726). Also "Reinstate Imperial Possessions" is too limited. It shouldn't just check for France having capitulated OR not existing, but rather France having capitulated OR not existing OR Germany owning Alsace-Lorraine (state 28), in case the player wanted to make a peace where they didn't annex France, and they wanted to do this in peacetime. Oh, and maybe rename the state to Elsass-Lothringen, and Strasbourg VP to Strassburg.

• Maybe Bourbon France/Vichy France should transfer Alsace to Germany as well, so you're able to get it if you want a French puppet (and maybe make non-aligned nations able to puppet nations in treaties as well. They already have plenty of drawbacks, like the high WT to generate wargoals [which I'm okay with], the high WT to send volunteers [a little high in my opinion, maybe lower this and make non-aligned AI more unwilling to send them instead], and the steepest requirements for war bonds). AI France should be very willing to retake their core should they win the war in the end anyways.

• And lastly I should add the World Tension generated by Monarchist Germany's focuses is too high. Even with more limited goals of conquest than fascist Germany (not 1/3 of the world, but rather just the pre-Versailles Germany) they generate more world tension. Including if in a defensive war against France and England (in fact the only offensive war was the Netherlands for the Kaiser, which led to France declaring on me, and later Belgium and Luxembourg to clean up the low countries after France fell). Though of course keep some of the World Tension. WW1 was probably a bad memory for many people at the time.

Also, while I can very much appreciate you fixing all the issues with Germany, as they're the most played nation, also check out the Chinese issues linked in my signature. There's some very bad issues there, some of which should be very doable to fix (like clearing Japanese wargoals on the Chinese nations upon the treaty after driving them from the mainland). That bug report has both a savegame from before the issues, and after the issues.

Anyways, thanks for looking into this @Bratyn. I'll add that I really like all the content from WtT and cornflakes, and the much less suicidal AI (not attacking into way superior enemies or impregnable forts anymore). With some fixes this game could (possibly) be one of the best war games ever

 

[Bratyn]

- I have made the Baltics and Finland more eager to join Germany's faction, if Germany picked "Safeguard the Baltics" and/or "Support the Finns". As for other nations, there are focuses for this (the anti-soviet alliance would work akin to having them in your faction).
- Austria-Hungary can no longer form Greater Hungary.
- Austria-Hungary will only be formed by one country (usually Austria), preventing multiple annexations.
- Re-form Austria-Hungary will now change government to Unaligned (if not already Unaligned), and create Otto von Habsburg as country leader.
- Hungary can now form a Trade Deal with non-communist Germany.
- Kaiser can now also be returned if HOL was puppeted.
- "Break the Anglo-French Colonial Hegemony" now gives claims on Palau, Papua, and Samoa (thanks for noticing this!).
- "Reintegrate Luxemburg and Alsace-Lorraine" and "Reinstate Imperial Possessions" are now available if France was puppeted, or if Germany owns Alsace-Lorraine. It will also rename Alsace-Lorraine to Elsass-Lothringen, Strasbourg to Strassburg, and Mulhouse to Mulhausen.

- As for Japan going to war too quickly; I do not think 70 days should matter much, and by this point the game has gone extremely ahistorical already anyway. This won't be changed right now.
- Vichy France doesn't spawn with Alsace-Lorraine anyway, so I don't see the problem here. In any case, if they -do- own it, the above fix (enabling the focus in case France is puppeted) should fix that too.
- As for World Tension, I disagree. There are only 4-5 focuses in this path that increase WT by 5 each, which is a very modest increase. Things blowing up out of proportion due to an escalating war has its consequences. The WT gain in those focuses are intended to keep WT at a manageable level in case everything goes smoothly for Germany and no wars occur - in which case, WT would be incredibly low if these focuses did not increase it. From a completely rational point of view, Germany conquering all of Western Europe (whether defensive, offensive, or a mix of both) would cause some consternation in the eyes of the rest of the world, surely.

 

[Khanor]

- I have made the Baltics and Finland more eager to join Germany's faction, if Germany picked "Safeguard the Baltics" and/or "Support the Finns". As for other nations, there are focuses for this (the anti-soviet alliance would work akin to having them in your faction).
- Austria-Hungary can no longer form Greater Hungary.
- Austria-Hungary will only be formed by one country (usually Austria), preventing multiple annexations.
- Re-form Austria-Hungary will now change government to Unaligned (if not already Unaligned), and create Otto von Habsburg as country leader.
- Hungary can now form a Trade Deal with non-communist Germany.
- Kaiser can now also be returned if HOL was puppeted.
- "Break the Anglo-French Colonial Hegemony" now gives claims on Palau, Papua, and Samoa (thanks for noticing this!).
- "Reintegrate Luxemburg and Alsace-Lorraine" and "Reinstate Imperial Possessions" are now available if France was puppeted, or if Germany owns Alsace-Lorraine. It will also rename Alsace-Lorraine to Elsass-Lothringen, Strasbourg to Strassburg, and Mulhouse to Mulhausen.

- As for Japan going to war too quickly; I do not think 70 days should matter much, and by this point the game has gone extremely ahistorical already anyway. This won't be changed right now.
- Vichy France doesn't spawn with Alsace-Lorraine anyway, so I don't see the problem here. In any case, if they -do- own it, the above fix (enabling the focus in case France is puppeted) should fix that too.
- As for World Tension, I disagree. There are only 4-5 focuses in this path that increase WT by 5 each, which is a very modest increase. Things blowing up out of proportion due to an escalating war has its consequences. The WT gain in those focuses are intended to keep WT at a manageable level in case everything goes smoothly for Germany and no wars occur - in which case, WT would be incredibly low if these focuses did not increase it. From a completely rational point of view, Germany conquering all of Western Europe (whether defensive, offensive, or a mix of both) would cause some consternation in the eyes of the rest of the world, surely.

Okay thanks a lot for the quick (and solid) fixes, implementations, and explanations. You make some good points for your disagreements as well. There's just one thing I'm still worried about, which is this point:

- Vichy France doesn't spawn with Alsace-Lorraine anyway, so I don't see the problem here. In any case, if they -do- own it, the above fix (enabling the focus in case France is puppeted) should fix that too.

If you choose to set up a Bourbon France or Vichy France, this will create a French civil war. Which used to mean that upon the treaty the puppeted France would just instantly annex all of Free France's states. Currently (1.5.1) the "Reinstate Imperial Possessions" doesn't transfer Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, it just grants them a core. Meaning if you want the core and nothing else you'd have to annex your puppet. This would leave you with all of France. And if you release them again you'd have a puppet that owns Alsace-Lorraine once again (maybe with you not having a core this time). So what I'm saying is that I suspect there's no way of just taking Alsace-Lorraine (and maybe the French held colonies) should you choose to set up a French puppet by the event. That is unless you added some transfer state mechanics to focuses/events, or reworked the instant civil war annexations upon the treaty.

One more thing, regarding the return territory/release puppet mechanics in the player's country overview: To help players shape their "perfect world", could we have the possibility to choose specific core states to return to a country, and maybe also release a puppet with specific states, instead of the current return all cores or release puppet with all their cores? I think many people would appreciate (read: absolutely love) this. (Also, returning territory this way removes your cores, but not your claims. Either this should remove both, or just the claims instead, if we follow the EU IV mechanics of cores being stronger than claims. If you choose to not remove cores from this, add a one way non-aggression pact to the nation the core was returned to if not in your faction or a subject, to prevent players from exploiting a cheaper core return war justification immediately.)



Edit:

It will also rename Alsace-Lorraine to Elsass-Lothringen, Strasbourg to Strassburg, and Mulhouse to Mulhausen.

While I loved that you implemented this suggestion, how about making a similar change for Poznan state (and VP), renaming them to Posen should Poland accept the "Danzig for Guarantees" focus? Players would surely love that. If this accidentally makes PDX way too rich from increased HoI IV sales, I'll accept my responsibility and apologetically take some of the troublesome money out of your hands

 

[Bratyn]

- Made those 2 focuses also transfer Alsace-Lorraine to Germany.
- Made "Danzig for Guarantees" rename Poznan state and province to Posen.

 

[Khanor]

- Made those 2 focuses also transfer Alsace-Lorraine to Germany.
- Made "Danzig for Guarantees" rename Poznan state and province to Posen.

Awesome, thank you. There's bonus points for good coding if you only transfer the state in the case it is not already owned by Germany (probably ROOT in this case, if the effect comes directly from the focus), as state transfers tend to remove unlocked building slots (granted, I haven't checked if the transfer state effect does this if the transfer effect is applied from one nation to the same nation). Anyways, looking forward to the next beta patch update