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HoI 4 Dev Diary - Japan Rework

Hello, and welcome to the first dev diary of 2018!

Although considering today’s topic perhaps we should call it the first dev diary of the year Heisei 30.

When we decided to expand on China for Waking the Tiger, we also decided that we would need to take another look at the Japanese focus tree and maybe do some minor rework and some alt-history expansions. While we were basically happy with the existing German focus tree, we felt that Japan might need a somewhat more extensive rework, so we asked our QA to compile a list of issues they had with the existing tree.

QA noted the lack of flavor and interesting choices, as well as the lack of really unique gameplay. Their final recommendation was fairly short:

Burn it down. All of it.

So we did.

japan_ft_3.jpg


As you can see, we have expanded the focus tree somewhat in comparison to the old one. The choice between striking north or south was a single focus each in the old tree, but has now been expanded into a full branch.

The first basic choice is what to do with the Kodoha (“Imperial Way”) faction in the military. This faction wanted to remove the last remnants of civilian government and restore the Emperor to his rightful place (i.e. a figurehead while the military has the actual power, as things were before the Meiji Restoration of the 19th century). Historically, supporters of this faction launched a coup in February of 1936 which failed within days as the rest of the military refused to support it.

For reasons of transparency and playability, we decided to not have the coup be an event that fires on or around a set date but made the choice of whether to support or purge the Kodoha faction part of the focus tree. Purging the faction sends you down the historical path to attack China, strike south and attempt to seize the European colonies for their resources.

As you can see, we decided to make Japan form its own faction in the historical path instead of having them join the Axis. The cooperation between Japan and Germany does not fit neatly into our current faction system. While Japan did join the Tripartite Pact, it did not join the war against the Soviet Union, and indeed the Germans concealed preparations to attack the Soviet Union from their Asian allies. While there was some military cooperation and exchange of technical know-how, it wasn’t anything like the scale to which the Western Allies cooperated and indeed closer to the military cooperation between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Still, it is a historical fact that Japan joined the Tripartite Pact, and as such you can do so in the historical path. But instead of joining the Axis faction, it creates a set of mutual guarantees between Germany, Italy and Japan. Should either of them be attacked instead of being the aggressor, they can be called into each other’s wars (and frankly, that is a lot closer to the relevant Article 4 of the treaty).

While still not perfect, we believe that this solves more problems than it creates. In particular, it means that Germany isn’t considered to still be fighting until Japan is taken (which led to amusing side effects such as the Luftwaffe forming the Legion Pekingente and evacuating to Japan when Germany falls). Speaking of taking Japan: AI Japan will now surrender if they have been nuked twice or lost Manchuria and Korea when they aren’t holding any territory in China. A player has the option through the same decision but can, of course, choose to fight to the bitter end (the AI is simply scripted to always pick the decision as soon as possible).

Capture_nuke.JPG


Simulating the war in China itself has come with its own challenges. We wanted to make the war feel like the long campaign it was (lasting, historically, from 1937 to 1945), not least because a Japan with a secure China can bring far more resources to bear on other targets than it did historically. At the same time, China starts with crippling penalties to its army, which means that Japan could easily defeat them. This is not particularly historical, as the Japanese expected a quick victory and were rudely surprised as the Chinese divisions fought very tenaciously.

So in order to make the campaign in China feel historical and give the Chinese player a chance to survive the initial invasion, we gave Japan some penalties for fighting in China (or, specifically, when fighting against Chinese troops). These penalties can be reduced through decisions, which raise world tension, so you will have to balance out the need to finish the campaign fast against raising world tension too quickly. We feel that this best represents the disdain the Japanese military held their opponents in - the Chinese simply weren’t worth a proper effort. Of course you, as the player, can hound your military into actually taking this conflict seriously, but the rest of the world may not like the idea of all-out warfare in China.

If you decide to side with the Kodoha faction, you effectively decide to strike north against the Soviet Union (as many in the Kodoha faction believed that the Soviets were the bigger threat). Subsequently, you will have to do some diplomatic maneuvering to keep your southern flank secure: Where historically the Japanese signed a Non-Aggression Pact with the Soviet Union while they were engaged in China (at least in part because the Battle of Kalkin Gol revealed some serious shortcomings in the Japanese military) to secure their northern flank, now you will have to sit down with the Western powers to ensure they will stay out of your hair while you deal with the Soviet Union. The London Naval Treaty reduces your dockyard output quite dramatically, but should serve to keep the Allies happy enough to look the other way when you go to war with the Communists. You will also have to send some equipment to your Manchurian “ally” to enable them to actually be somewhat useful in the war.

Later on, you can join a technological exchange program with Germany and even gain access to German Rocketry. Going down this path will also allow you to prospect for resources in Siberia.

But of course, you don’t need to follow history quite so closely. The democratic branch assumes that there could have been a significant pushback against the militarization of Japan from forces inside the civilian government. After all, Japan did have a functioning system of democratic elections and a working parliament during the Taisho period, a mere 10 years before the start of the game.

However, the militarists will not go quietly and will rather flee to Manchukuo than to surrender their position. Those elements of the army that can’t or won’t go abroad will start a civil war. Once that has been dealt with, you can rewrite the constitution to turn the Emperor into more of a constitutional monarch like the Europeans have. Afterwards, you can either try to reach out to the British and revive the Anglo-Japanese Alliance that has served so well during the beginning of the 20th century, or you can form your own West Pacific Treaty Organization (or WPTO).

But that still leaves the problem of Manchukuo, now firmly run by the Kwantung Army and supported by the very militarists you kicked out of the country. You will have to go and remove this threat to your freedom with some good old fashioned liberty bombs. From there, you can go and ensure that the colonial powers actually make good on their promises of freedom and self-determination for the native people. After all, if you can have a functioning democracy, why can’t the rest of Asia?

Capture_usa.JPG


Finally, there is the communist branch, which is not quite as far fetched as it may seem. Historically, Japan experienced the same rise of leftist agitation as the rest of the world, and the Japanese Communist Party enjoyed some successes until new legislation effectively banned it. Extensive measures by secret police agencies ensured that by 1936, the party posed little threat to the establishment. That, however, does not mean that there wasn’t a potential for a revolution. A large number of young officers came from a peasant or working-class background, and many civil servants considered socialism to be the way of the future (or in any event better than the Japanese form of capitalism dominated by the huge industrial conglomerates, the Zaibatsus).

hoi4_102.jpg


Historically, these civil servants were quickly banished to Manchukuo or “encouraged” by the secret police to reconsider their political stance. The first step towards a communist revolution in Japan, therefore, is to recall those civil servants that have kept the faith back to the homeland as well as sending a number of militarist hardliners to serve in Manchukuo instead. By arranging for a number of younger and more revolutionary minded officers to be promoted, you will also gain three very loyal and reasonably capable Generals who will definitely serve on your side in the unlikely event that a civil war should break out.

In the next step, you trigger a civil war.

Here, the decision to send the militarists to Manchukuo is both a blessing and a curse, as the Japanese holdings in China are taken over by loyalist troops - who are nonetheless unable to interfere in the civil war in the homelands. Once you have secured the Home Islands, you face another problem: The Emperor has been the foundation of Japan’s political system for thousands of years, and you have just deposed him. Your government has very little legitimacy in the eyes of the people, so you will have to rebuild their trust and stabilize the country. Only then can you go over to the Asian mainland and eradicate the pest of militarism before making common cause with either the Soviets or the Chinese Communists.

Capture_rivalry.JPG


The Japanese military was famous for the poor relations between the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy (for example, it took the Navy until 1943 to confess that the Battle of Midway hadn’t gone exactly as planned and had in fact included a minor setback). In the game, this is represented by a number of decisions about the prioritization of resources and resolving conflicts between the two parties. Each decision affects a national spirit representing the balance of power between Army and Navy, which affects things like factory output and dockyard construction speed.

Capture_bicycles.JPG


Finally, as part of the rework, we decided to give Japan a bit more flavor by adding two units that are currently unique to Japan: Bicycle Battalions and Torpedo Cruisers. The former are about what you’d expect: infantry mounted on bicycles move a little faster than regular infantry but require some more resources. Although they are currently restricted to just Japan, they might end up being accessible for the rest of the world if we can find a place to put them in the tech tree. The Torpedo Cruisers were a fad in the Japanese Navy, who refitted a number of light cruisers with no less than 40 torpedo tubes (20 per broadside). Together with the Japanese bonuses to torpedo range, they can become a very terrifying force on the high seas - if you can manage to lure the enemy into a decisive surface battle.

Capture_torpedo.JPG


In the process, we also fixed a small issue that pestered some fans of Japanese aviation:

Capture_aircraft.JPG


Similar to the German focus tree, parts of the new focus tree will be part of the Waking the Tiger DLC. While most of the new focuses are free, the communist and democratic branches of the political part will be paid.

We will continue to rework vanilla focus trees in future DLCs (assuming, of course, that this meets with approval from the community), with an eye to which countries make sense with the overall theme of that DLC (for example, reworking the Soviet Union doesn’t really fit into a naval-focused DLC). Expect further updates on future plans after the release of Waking the Tiger.

DLC focus trees will see occasional updates when necessary to accommodate new mechanics (for example, Hungary now inherits Austria’s generals if they manage to form Austria-Hungary) but probably won’t see major reworks.

That is all for today. Tune in next week, when we open up Bag of Tricks #3. There is no World War Wednesday stream today, but it will be returning next week as normal.

Rejected Titles for this dev diary:

It’s pronounced YA-PAN

Glorious Nippon Focus Tree folded 1000 times

We’re not making this focus tree because we like you or anything

While you were waiting for dev diaries, we studied the blade

This focus tree makes our hearts go doki-doki

Girls und Schwerpunktbäume

Basically Sengoku 2

The Emperor demands Focus Trees

That wasn’t even the Focus Tree’s final form

FIXED: Japan’s Focus Tree no longer a Shameful Display

Samurai Communists are the best Communists

No Kaiju were harmed in the making of this Focus Tree

Japan 2.0

Japan Digital Remastered Edition

Japan HD Edition

Japan: Online Tactics Advanced
 
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Oh, they said that the Kwantung Army had been entirely lost in the battle, did they? They called the 23rd Division the Kwantung Army? No. You're being silly. Stop.

Yup, it was the 6th Army, not the Kwantung Army, woops.
The 23rd Division the Kwantung Army you keep mentioning was a division (duh) of the 6th Army, which after the battle was so depleted it was assigned to training and garrisoning, your confusion is probably owing to the fact that the 23th was the first division to engage in hostilities with mongolia and one of the first along with part of the 7th to engage the Soviets.

In my defense, the 6th army was a part of the Kwantung Army and the officers of the Kwuantung Army WERE penalized and it WAS a defeat of the Kwuantung Army.


Go and actually read some actual sources. This is such a low-effort claim that I'm sorely tempted to just not answer it, but I wil

Dont. To claim other people are not using the "correct" sources (especially without actually ofering sources to support your claims) is a fallacy, if I wanted to engage with someone that gets emotional because his arguments are being countered or that claims that everyone else is wrong except him because he says so I'd go to a Youtube comments section.

I REALLY dont appreciate people resorting to insulting the other party in the conversations, so if that is as far as your capacity will take you, I will gladly consider this conversation over, okay? do have a nice day.
 
Dont. To claim other people are not using the "correct" sources (especially without actually ofering sources to support your claims) is a fallacy, if I wanted to engage with someone that gets emotional because his arguments are being countered or that claims that everyone else is wrong except him because he says so I'd go to a Youtube comments section.

I REALLY dont appreciate people resorting to insulting the other party in the conversations, so if that is as far as your capacity will take you, I will gladly consider this conversation over, okay? do have a nice day.

I wasn't claiming that you weren't using correct sources, I was claiming that you seemed not to have done any source work at all. To claim so is not a fallacy; in fact, it is not even an argument, it is simply a truth claim. You made a claim (this policy was only decided on late in the battle of Khalkhyn Gol) without providing any evidence. This could quite rightly be dismissed with just as little evidence, but, as I was pointing out, there isn't a lack of evidence to support the counter-argument. If you want me to provide you with sources for the previous border skirmishes and the other things mentioned, just ask, but if you were to try actually researching around your claim you'd come across plenty of them yourself within minutes, which is what I was pointing out. Also, while I have not given you any citations on them, my actually mentioning several of the battles which support my argument is a higher standard of sourcing than your own with regards to your claim.

The closest I can see that I got to an insult was saying that you were "being silly" by continually claiming that Japan lost an entire army at Khalkhyn Gol. If that is an insufferable barb, fine, I will go back and edit it out when you ask me to, and I will refrain from doing it again. If there is another insult in there that I missed on my read-back, point that out to me too. Saying that you appear to be misinformed on a subject is a criticism of your argument as a case for its claims, not of you as a person. As a side-note, apathy is not usually considered a highly emotional state.
 
Japan decided to not attack the Soviet Union years before Kalkin Gol. Period. The decision to not attack the Soviet Union had nothing to do with the results of the battle of Kalkin Gol which was not authorized by Japanese high command in the first place as well as all of the other Japanese-Soviet border conflicts also not being approved by the Japanese high command. Despite all of this the Japanese inflicted far more casualties and material damage to the Soviets than the Soviets did to the Japanese again despite the fact that the Soviets grossly outnumbered and out gunned the Japanese in every capacity. Also about 30% of the Japanese casualties were from dysentery alone and not even from fighting the Soviets.

Yes Soviet border claims were maintained and the Japanese forces were repelled in an ultimate defeat but, if anyone got scared of anyone as a result of that battle alone, then it would have been the Soviets getting scared of the Japanese.
 
I wasn't claiming that you weren't using correct sources, I was claiming that you seemed not to have done any source work at all. To claim so is not a fallacy; in fact, it is not even an argument, it is simply a truth claim...

XD, ah, its a "truth claim" because you said so, my apologies.

I will go back and edit it out when you ask me to, and I will refrain from doing it again

I would much rather you simply apologized for you language, but if editing and ignoring your previous actions is the best you can do, I guess that will have to do.

Also, while I have not given you any citations on them, my actually mentioning several of the battles which support my argument is a higher standard of sourcing than your own with regards to your claim.

There's actually something I've been wondering: You keep insisting it was the the 23th Division alone which engaged the Soviets at Kalkin Gol:
"Quite aside from the previous point, it's a bit assinine to refer to most of a division as "an entire army"/
"Oh, they said that the Kwantung Army had been entirely lost in the battle, did they? They called the 23rd Division the Kwantung Army? No. You're being silly. Stop".

So far as I knew the ones that engaged the Soviets was the 6th Army, so would you mind sharing your sourcing with me to confirm that it was indeed the 23th Division and not the 6th Army which engaged the Soviets? as far as I was informed the 23th Division acted as part of the 6th army along with other divisions.
 
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So far as I knew the ones that engaged the Soviets was the 6th Army, so would you mind sharing your sourcing with me to confirm that it was indeed the 23th Division and not the 6th Army which engaged the Soviets? as far as I was informed the 23th Division acted as part of the 6th army along with other divisions.
The 6th Army was made up of the 23rd Division and the 8th Border Garrison manning the fortification at Hailar. As far as I can tell the latter only contributed a token force of 2 or 3 battalions under the command of Colonel Hasebe Riei.
Mmmh, so why wasnt Kantokuen implemented if that was the case?
  • Not every plan is necessarily going to be executed. War Plan Red?
  • Japan had no grand plan on Russian Far East for a while by then, the plan was rushed out after Barbarossa began.
  • IJA was already busy with the war in China that's not going anywhere soon.
  • The US embargo against Japan that was way more critical to the big picture.
 
The 6th Army was made up of the 23rd Division and the 8th Border Garrison manning the fortification at Hailar. As far as I can tell the latter only contributed a token force of 2 or 3 battalions under the command of Colonel Hasebe Riei..

Then why were the 7th division, 1st Tank Corps, 2nd Air Brigade involved as well? that doesnt sound to me like a "token force".

Not every plan is necessarily going to be executed. War Plan Red?

I think thats a terrible comparison, War Plan Red was a hipotetical situation for a circumstance that had, realistically, the faintest possibility of happening, with how likely that plan was to be implemented at the time, I think it might as well be compare with CONOP 8888, I mean its there but I doubt any staff member is going to push super hard for its implementation.

- Kantokuen had the support of the Emperor AND the General Staff of the Imperial Army AND Minister of War Hajime Siguyama AND was prepared with the approval of Hideki Tojo himself.

- If succesful would've secured the resources the Empire needed, because, as you pointed out the US embargo WAS a very big concern to the Empire I think.

- Would've realistically avoided a war with the US, which the navy Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (what a cool name, the TRUE mountain), repeatedly stated was a VERY BAD IDEA, if the situation with the soviet union was as previous commmenters said and the USSR was "getting scared of the Japanese.", then its not even a contest, the logical idea IF the situation was as they said would've been to proceed with a Siberian campaign... but that didnt happen.

- Rushed? Kantokuen was an expanded and revised version of Operational Plan No.8 (Hachi-Go), that was around since 1938, Kantokuen was expected to initiate in late 1941, thats 3 years of planning!, I wouldnt really consider that to be "rushed".
 
Mmmh, so why wasnt Kantokuen implemented if that was the case?

Your premise which assumes that all military operations will be undertaken as long as the aggressive side isn't afraid of the enemy is totally false. For example the USA has war plans to invade pretty much every country in the world. The US military isn't afraid of Canada but, does the US invade Canada? Obviously not. There are more factors at play.

Are you just trolling us at this point? It has been thoroughly explained. Read into the history of the military-political factions within Japan, read about the actual physical planning of Kantokuen itself. If you did actually read about those things then you would know that the Kodoha faction was purged by General Tojo's Toseiha faction. Hell, even the new Japanese focus tree represents this. The Kodoha faction was overwhelmingly in favor of war with the Soviet Union rather than the Western powers and the Toseiha faction was a bit less enthused about war with the Soviet Union compared to the Kodoha faction.

Planning for Kantokuen continued to happen after the battle of Kalkin Gol. The Japanese were physically, literally not deterred from fighting the Soviet Union as a result of this unauthorized battle that the Japanese forces actually performed extraordinarily well in against the Soviets. That fact along with the fact that zero of the Japanese-Soviet conflicts during WW2 were authorized by Japanese high command show that they were not scared from their defeat at Kalkin Gol.

The biggest issue was the Japanese perceived duplicity and perhaps direct violation of treaties in the form of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the Anti-Soviet pact and the fact that they didn't even know that Germany was going to invade the Soviet Union. The equally important if not more important factor was that the USA issued at full embargo on Japan and the Dutch East Indies refused to sell oil to Japan as well. Japan at the time was getting 80% of its oil from the USA and the Dutch East Indies. You need oil to have a modern military and modern production of consumer of military goods so the Japanese high command found it more important to strike south for the oil and rubber along with preparing for the eventual invasion of Western forces onto Japanese controlled islands.

Reminder that despite all of this and the ongoing Japanese engagement in China, Japanese build up for war against the Soviet Union for Kantokuen never stopped. The Japanese high command never sat down and decided, "Hmmm, our men at Kalkin Gol, despite us not authorizing an engagement against the Soviets in the first place, performed extraordinarily well against a vastly superior Soviet force though they were eventually ultimately driven back. Because of our men performing so well in the battle I think I'm now scared of the Soviet forces and we will cancel all plans and operational readiness for Kantokuen."

Again, planning and build up for Kantokuen continued to happen for years after the Battle of Kalkin Gol. Kalkin Gol, very conclusively, did not deter Japanese implementation of Kantokuen.

It cannot be any clearer.
 
Then why were the 7th division, 1st Tank Corps, 2nd Air Brigade involved as well? that doesnt sound to me like a "token force".



I think thats a terrible comparison, War Plan Red was a hipotetical situation for a circumstance that had, realistically, the faintest possibility of happening, with how likely that plan was to be implemented at the time, I think it might as well be compare with CONOP 8888, I mean its there but I doubt any staff member is going to push super hard for its implementation.

- Kantokuen had the support of the Emperor AND the General Staff of the Imperial Army AND Minister of War Hajime Siguyama AND was prepared with the approval of Hideki Tojo himself.

- If succesful would've secured the resources the Empire needed, because, as you pointed out the US embargo WAS a very big concern to the Empire I think.

- Would've realistically avoided a war with the US, which the navy Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (what a cool name, the TRUE mountain), repeatedly stated was a VERY BAD IDEA, if the situation with the soviet union was as previous commmenters said and the USSR was "getting scared of the Japanese.", then its not even a contest, the logical idea IF the situation was as they said would've been to proceed with a Siberian campaign... but that didnt happen.

- Rushed? Kantokuen was an expanded and revised version of Operational Plan No.8 (Hachi-Go), that was around since 1938, Kantokuen was expected to initiate in late 1941, thats 3 years of planning!, I wouldnt really consider that to be "rushed".
If anyone was to be scared of anyone as a result of the battle of Kalkin Gol itself, the ONLY logical conclusion would be the Soviet forces getting scared of the Japanese forces. Imagine being the Soviets and fighting a numerically inferior and vastly materially inferior Japanese force that lost 30% of its casualties from dysentery alone in a battle that wasn't even authorized by the Japanese high command, and then coming out losing far more men, tanks, planes, trucks and all other aspects of war material than that same Japanese force.

I doubt anyone got scared of anyone as a result of the Battle of Kalkin Gol but, if anyone did become scared of anyone as a result of the battle of Kalkin Gol then it could have only been the Soviets becoming scared of the Japanese forces.

As you said and I said in my previous post, Kantokuen was approved and in continued planning for years after Kalkin Gol. The general Japanese stance against the Soviets was aggressive. Despite their quite bleak general war situation dealing with China, USA and other Western powers they were still maybe going to invade the Soviets and maybe not.

Conversely, the Soviets advocated for strict pure defense against the Japanese because they knew they would not be able to handle the Japanese and the Germans at the same time.
 
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The final nail in the coffin for Kantokuen came in mid-July 1941 when because of Foreign Minister Matsuoka's continued insistence for immediate war with the USSR, he was fired and replaced with Admiral Teijiro Tono as the Foreign Minister. It is very clear that the Japanese Army in general, who would be doing almost all of the actual fighting against the Soviets and who fought in Kalkin Gol, always supported the invasion of the USSR but, the Japanese Navy had always opposed it. Other geo-political situations along with the Japanese Navy's eventual rise to power and influence over the Japanese Army within the Japanese high command led to Kantokuen never happening. The idea that the Japanese Army was scared of the Soviets as a result of the unsanctioned battle of Kalkin Gol is in diametric opposition to the actual result of the battle itself and other facts of the Japanese war situation.
 
The biggest issue was the Japanese perceived duplicity and perhaps direct violation of treaties in the form of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the Anti-Soviet pact and the fact that they didn't even know that Germany was going to invade the Soviet Union.

They did knew about Operation Barbarossa Grl. Hiroshi Oshima, ambassador to Nazi Germany informed them, and you yourself just said that "despite all of this and the ongoing Japanese engagement in China, Japanese build up for war against the Soviet Union for Kantokuen never stopped".

Of course it didnt, as I wrote before, Kantokuen had the support of the Emperor AND the General Staff of the Imperial Army AND Minister of War Hajime Siguyama AND was prepared with the approval of Hideki Tojo himself, they kept preparing, and preparing... and preparing, and then prepared some more for a few years, and then some more.

So which is it? they were bothered by duplicity and stopped their plans? or never stopped and were they preparing for Kantokuen?, both?

You need oil to have a modern military and modern production

(Sarcastic answer to sarcastic comment follows):
What? really? you mean like, the oil in oil rich Siberia that Operation Plan No.8 was specifically designed to obtain, that one plan the Japanese spent 3 years preparing for but was then scrapped after Kalkhin Ghol? the one that was supported by Tojo and the Emperor and specifically stated that the Siberian resources were necessary for continued expansion? the one that turned into Kantokuen after the war, and, as you pointed out the Japanese kept preparing for? and kept preparing for, and then kept preparing for a few years more, because jeez you heard what the Tiger of Malaya said? that we REALLY, REALLY are not ready for a war with the Soviet Union? and maybe we should look the other way and pretend the Soviets didnt just built entire fortifications in our border and now threaten the entire Manchurian supply line?

THAT oil? I had no idea thank you for illuminating me.

Japanese force that lost 30% of its casualties from dysentery alone in a battle that wasn't even authorized by the Japanese high command, and then coming out losing far more men, tanks, planes, trucks and all other aspects of war material than that same Japanese force.

Yeah, about that, you keep writting as if the 6th army disobeying Tokyo's direct orders and their supplies lines being so overstreched that they had to drink dirty water and (according to some sources, but I cant verify it) radiator fuel as if it was something the Soviets would be scared of, like how did that worked?

"Man you see those Japanese we just defeated?, they were dying in droves because they cant even resupply and their command is in such disarray that they've cant coordinate their own troops, Im so afraid of them now!".

I should also point out, the Soviet report says that neither troop, material or morale were a problem in the battle and that losses could be easily replaced, Soviet material and numbers at that time FAAAAR outclassed that of the Japanese, just in tank production the Soviets were producing something in the field of 3,000 while the Japanese were producing something in the field of 500, a HUGE difference bolstered by superior Soviet supply lines, while the Soviets could easily supply deployments of up to 600km (with railroad support, of course), the Japanese considered a 15 kilometer deployment to be excessive.

Heck the Soviets deployed 6,000 supply trucks for that ONE battle, the entire Manchurian army only had access to 9,000 trucks, for the entire region!

And the Soviets knew this, their reports only speak of "leadership" problems, in no way is it mentioned that Japanese forces were superior, and it wasnt a problem when the Soviets invaded Japan latter in the war.
 
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Then why were the 7th division, 1st Tank Corps, 2nd Air Brigade involved as well? that doesnt sound to me like a "token force".
You mean the 26th and 28th Infantry Regiments of the 7th Division, 3rd and 4th Tank Regiments of the 1st Tank Group, and aircrafts that were explicitly ordered not to go beyond the disputed territory Soviet air space? That sounds like a half-assed mish mash drawn from all over the place. None of them belonged to the 6th Army.
Kantokuen had the support of the Emperor AND the General Staff of the Imperial Army AND Minister of War Hajime Siguyama AND was prepared with the approval of Hideki Tojo himself.
Did they support just the mobilization part or also the war part? The final decision of war was to be made on August 10 and they decided not to a day before that, and the increased presence of IJA in Manchuria did not end with the war part on halt, so you can't treat their support of reinforcing Manchuria as willingness to declare war. Besides, the PM Konoe Fumimaro literally dissolved the cabinet to kick the pro-war MoFA Matsuoka out (Japanese PM did not have the power to lay off cabinet members), so any support for war was far from unanimous.
If succesful would've secured the resources the Empire needed, because, as you pointed out the US embargo WAS a very big concern to the Empire I think.
There's no oil in the Russian Far East.
Would've realistically avoided a war with the US
How so? Japan was still invading China and IJA was already in Tonkin, and we knew that US was rather eager to offer lend-lease to USSR during the war, so I don't see how this will help. US might even use it instead of the occupation of Indochina as their excuse to embargo Japan.
Rushed? Kantokuen was an expanded and revised version of Operational Plan No.8 (Hachi-Go), that was around since 1938, Kantokuen was expected to initiate in late 1941, thats 3 years of planning!, I wouldnt really consider that to be "rushed".
It was completely shelfed in between and was only resurrected after Barbarossa had begun.
 
They did knew about Operation Barbarossa Grl. Hiroshi Oshima, ambassador to Nazi Germany informed them, and you yourself just said that "despite all of this and the ongoing Japanese engagement in China, Japanese build up for war against the Soviet Union for Kantokuen never stopped".

Of course it didnt, as I wrote before, Kantokuen had the support of the Emperor AND the General Staff of the Imperial Army AND Minister of War Hajime Siguyama AND was prepared with the approval of Hideki Tojo himself, they kept preparing, and preparing... and preparing, and then prepared some more for a few years, and then some more.

So which is it? they were bothered by duplicity and stopped their plans? or never stopped and were they preparing for Kantokuen?, both?



(Sarcastic answer to sarcastic comment follows):
What? really? you mean like, the oil in oil rich Siberia that Operation Plan No.8 was specifically designed to obtain, that one plan the Japanese spent 3 years preparing for but was then scrapped after Kalkhin Ghol? the one that was supported by Tojo and the Emperor and specifically stated that the Siberian resources were necessary for continued expansion? the one that turned into Kantokuen after the war, and, as you pointed out the Japanese kept preparing for? and kept preparing for, and then kept preparing for a few years more, because jeez you heard what the Tiger of Malaya said? that we REALLY, REALLY are not ready for a war with the Soviet Union? and maybe we should look the other way and pretend the Soviets didnt just built entire fortifications in our border and now threaten the entire Manchurian supply line?

THAT oil? I had no idea thank you for illuminating me.



Yeah, about that, you keep writting as if the 6th army disobeying Tokyo's direct orders and their supplies lines being so overstreched that they had to drink dirty water and (according to some sources, but I cant verify it) radiator fuel as if it was something the Soviets would be scared of, like how did that worked?

"Man you see those Japanese we just defeated?, they were dying in droves because they cant even resupply and their command is in such disarray that they've cant coordinate their own troops, Im so afraid of them now!".

I should also point out, the Soviet report says that neither troop, material or morale were a problem in the battle and that losses could be easily replaced (Soviet material and numbers at that time FAAAAR outclassed that of the Japanese), but rather that "leadership" had been the problem, in no way is it mentioned that Japanese forces were superior, and it wasnt a problem when the Soviets invaded Japan latter in the war.

Since you have proven to be totally incapable of understanding the situation or of reasonable discussion, I can only resort to repeating the facts of the situation so that other more reasonable and intelligent readers of this thread may understand.

Perceived duplicity and perceived violation of the Anti-Soviet Pact by Germany with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Republic of China's continued military resistance, Tojo's and the Emperor's fear of accelerating Western material support for the Soviets and Chinese as a result of aggression against the Soviets, Imperial Japanese Navy's overwhelming power and influence over top of the Imperial Japanese Army within the Japanese high command along with the Navy's undying refusal to invade the Soviets and undying desire to attack the Western controlled territories in the Pacific and the USA, Dutch and American oil embargoes, political purging of the pro war with USSR Kodoha 3 faction years before Kalkin Gol and the purging of the pro war with USSR Foreign minister Matsuoka 2 years after Kalkin Gol caused the Japanese to not invade the Soviet Union. not the combat results from the unexpectedly over-performing Japanese forces against the Soviet forces at the Battle of Kalkin Gol.

The stats of the battle don't lie. The Japanese have zero reason to be afraid of the Soviets as a result of that battle. Only an idiot would become scared of his enemy as a result of his own forces performing extremely well and far better than expected. If the Japanese performed this well in a defeat of a battle that was never sanctioned or fully committed to versus a much more powerful Soviet force, imagine how bad it would be for the Soviets in the event of a Japanese victory or of a fight that the Japanese sanctioned and fully committed to or were more closely matched or even superior in men and material. Screenshot related.

https://gyazo.com/625c75b6f50ffb7ddae95bddca15cd8b
 
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You mean the 26th and 28th Infantry Regiments of the 7th Division, 3rd and 4th Tank Regiments of the 1st Tank Group, and aircrafts that were explicitly ordered not to go beyond the disputed territory Soviet air space? That sounds like a half-assed mish mash drawn from all over the place. None of them belonged to the 6th Army.

Everyone was ordered not go beyond the border, in fact, military historian Edward J. Drea goes as far as to say "It seems certain that if the Soviets had pressed their pursuit operations, 6th Army would have been routed. However, the Soviets halted at the boundary line that they maintained was the border and began digging positions" perhaps it WAS a miss mash as you say, which given that the 6th army had been prepped for such a conflict for the last 3 years as part of Operation Plan No.8... sounds bad to me.

Did they support just the mobilization part or also the war part? The final decision of war was to be made on August 10 and they decided not to a day before that, and the increased presence of IJA in Manchuria did not end with the war part on halt, so you can't treat their support of reinforcing Manchuria as willingness to declare war

You're right, but I can treat the continued reinforcement of Kwaungtung Army, the renewed supply of war material including the comission of over 200,000 military vehicles, and the direct order from Tokyo to the Kwantung army to "make operational preparations against Russia (in accordance to the Supplement to Imperial General headquarters Guide of 1941)" (Army Department Order No. 578) as willingness to declare war cant I?

There's no oil in the Russian Far East.

Well, the Sakhalin region, a mayor Russian oil exporter region to japan before the outbreak of hostilities would like to disagree, but even then, the North Road policy considered ALL of Siberia as expansion grounds for Japan, its just that Plan No.8 considered kind of important to first neutralize the huge ass 700,000 strong army in the Far East BEFORE occupying Siberia.

How so? Japan was still invading China and IJA was already in Tonkin, and we knew that US was rather eager to offer lend-lease to USSR during the war, so I don't see how this will help. US might even use it instead of the occupation of Indochina as their excuse to embargo Japan.

And up until Pearl Harbor the outbreak of open hostilities with Japan was unlikely, president Roosevelt was having a LOT of trouble rallying support for even the blockade nevermind actually commiting to a war.


It was completely shelfed in between and was only resurrected after Barbarossa had begun.

As I commented above up until the war with the US, standing orders for the Kwantung Army were to keep preparing for hostilities with Russia and their requisition of war materials continued throughout the years until the US forced them to divert their forces towards that front and as far as October 1940 the Japanese were drawing possible plans to counter "communist influence" in the event the plans moved forward (though given the causion Imperial Japan treated the Red Army that seems unlikely).
 
Since you have proven to be totally incapable of understanding the situation or of reasonable discussion, I can only resort to repeating the facts of the situation so that other more reasonable and intelligent readers of this thread may understand. Invasion plans for the Soviet Union were not scrapped as a result of Kalkin Gol. That is a totally baseless assertion.

Mhm, by the way I just found this really interesting account about the remains of the Battle, see the Japanes were so worried about the effects of the Battle that they effectively hid news of the Battle for a few years, which is fairly common for a dictatorship, what is NOT as common is that they considered the losses to have been so significant that they separated the cremated remains in 3 different transports and then delivered those remains in several different batches to avoid the population despairing, which is interesting considering the Japanese view on life loss in the battlefield isnt it?

Military historian Peter G. Tsuoras said: "Everything was done to hide catastrophe from the world, and even from Japan. Survivors were isolated and quietly discharged. So many white boxes of ashes had to be shipped back to the homeland that it was done in three shipments so as not to stun the nation.""

A few days latter the the Japanese Diet would receive this address: "We have directly received but one edge of the Soviet power, we learned that Soviet power was... up to expectations whereas Japanese arms and equipment had to be improved and reinforced... We shal not have wasted the blood that was shed on the sands of Nomohan".

Interesting stuff, but as you said, one can only repeat the facts of the situation so that other more reasonable and intelligent readers of this thread may understand, though perhaps given your language and temperament this might not be the place to express yourself?, might I recommend something closer to the way you write... a Youtube comments section might fit you better given your last few posts.
 
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Everyone was ordered not go beyond the border, in fact, military historian Edward J. Drea goes as far as to say "It seems certain that if the Soviets had pressed their pursuit operations, 6th Army would have been routed. However, the Soviets halted at the boundary line that they maintained was the border and began digging positions" perhaps it WAS a miss mash as you say, which given that the 6th army had been prepped for such a conflict for the last 3 years as part of Operation Plan No.8... sounds bad to me.



You're right, but I can treat the continued reinforcement of Kwaungtung Army, the renewed supply of war material including the comission of over 200,000 military vehicles, and the direct order from Tokyo to the Kwantung army to "make operational preparations against Russia (in accordance to the Supplement to Imperial General headquarters Guide of 1941)" (Army Department Order No. 578) as willingness to declare war cant I?



Well, the Sakhalin region, a mayor Russian oil exporter region to japan before the outbreak of hostilities would like to disagree, but even then, the North Road policy considered ALL of Siberia as expansion grounds for Japan, its just that Plan No.8 considered kind of important to first neutralize the huge ass 700,000 strong army in the Far East BEFORE occupying Siberia.



And up until Pearl Harbor the outbreak of open hostilities with Japan was unlikely, president Roosevelt was having a LOT of trouble rallying support for even the blockade nevermind actually commiting to a war.




As I commented above up until the war with the US, standing orders for the Kwantung Army were to keep preparing for hostilities with Russia and their requisition of war materials continued throughout the years until the US forced them to divert their forces towards that front and as far as October 1940 the Japanese were drawing possible plans to counter "communist influence" in the event the plans moved forward (though given the causion Imperial Japan treated the Red Army that seems unlikely).

Building up of border defenses does not equal willingness to invade the other side of that border. If you honestly believe that then, you must also believe that when Switzerland massively mobilized its forces in WW2 to defend against German and Italian aggression that the Swiss were showing willingness and commitment to invade across the border into Italy and into Germany. Surely you don't believe that of the Swiss. A rational person upon realizing this would conclude that the Japanese build up in Manchuria does not equal willingness from Japanese high command to invade just as Swiss massive buildup on their borders with Germany and Italy in WW2 does not equal willingness from the Swiss high command to invade.

You have a very poor logical process. Things civilians said about the war results are irrelevant to the factual, statistical and logical results of the Battle of Kalkin Gol. The Japanese being scared of the Soviets was not an outcome of the battle of Kalkin Gol. Every government always tries to appear to be doing well and hide its losses to its own population to maintain war support. Stating that Japan was a dictatorship in an attempt to make it seem bad is you impotent attempt to demonize them. I don't care if Japan was a dictatorship. Since you want to bring up dictatorships hiding war casualties then you can look no further than the Soviet Union itself especially under Stalin and even in the battle of Kalkin Gol the Soviets massively under reported their own casualties.

Facts remain facts. Soviet attitude toward Japan was defensive (scared) until Germany was defeated compared to the general attitude of Japan toward the Soviet Union was offensive (not scared) even though Japanese high command in the Navy, Emperor and Tojo were never going to commit to war with the USSR until Moscow had fallen. Almost all of the pro war with USSR people with actual power and influence within the Japanese high command were purged as a result of many internal Japanese military-political conflicts. The failed pro war with USSR Kodoha faction coup 3 years before Kalkin Gol and the purging of the pro war with USSR Foreign Minister 2 years after Kalkin Gol.
 
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Building up of border defenses does not equal willingness to invade the other side of that border.

Did you just edited your comment to avoid the language you used instead of actually apologizing for it? *checks previous comments, "edited 9 minutes ago"* yes, you did!

Look, you want to continue this in any capacity, first you apologize, I do enjoy these disscussions, but Im not in the mood to entertain emotionally unstable teens, or insecure grown men that get triggered when their opinions are debated, so either you man up or you can go to something more fitting your language... I did recommended a Youtube comments section previously didnt I? There's this really good documentary series on the Eastern Front on Youtube where we could spend a relaxing evening of insulting each other.
 
Did you just edited your comment to avoid the language you used instead of actually apologizing for it? *checks previous comments, "edited 9 minutes ago"* yes, you did!

Look, you want to continue this in any capacity, first you apologize, I do enjoy these disscussions, but Im not in the mood to entertain emotionally unstable teens, or insecure grown men that get triggered when their opinions are debated, so either you man up or you can go to something more fitting your language... I did recommended a Youtube comments section previously didnt I? There's this really good documentary series on the Eastern Front on Youtube where we could spend a relaxing evening of insulting each other.

That entire post is pure projection. I come with stats of the actual battle and facts of the Japanese situation. You come with baseless assertions and faulty logic. Since you think the Japanese build up in Manchuria automatically equates to the willingness of the Japanese high command to invade across the border into the USSR do you also believe that France, Switzerland, Belgium and the Netherlands when they built up their border with Germany for defense, that all those countries and their high commands also had the intention to invade Germany? Surely you don't. I always go back and edit my posts since I type them and like to reread them to make sure they are spell checked. You are the emotionally charged one here who can't address the facts.

Since you brought up manliness and emotional stability, you're the one who has expected myself and the other poster Orlunu to apologize to you simply for posting facts about the battle and you get emotionally compromised and require an apology since your opinion is challenged and you can't handle that.

>expecting people to apologize to you on an anonymous internet forum
>trying to be manly on an anonymous internet forum
wew lad

Why would Japan be scared of the Soviets in the situation of a random unexpected attack done by insubordinate Generals where the Japanese forces performed far better than the Soviets despite being ultimately defeated? Again, here are the stats https://gyazo.com/625c75b6f50ffb7ddae95bddca15cd8b
 
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I don't know if anyone mentioned this but will the cornflakes update affect the events too? For example if one choose to go the democratic or communist route will it spawn a civil war with the Militarits spawning in Manchukuo or will it be random. Also would choosing an alternate government route while taking Greater East Asia co Prosperity sphere focus affect anything? Is the Purge Kodoha route exclusive only for the militarist route? As you can see I am looking for various workarounds :D