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currylambchop

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Of course, what did the US army do besides fight a two front war and define military doctrine in the West for the next century? :^)
It’s a question about balance. The US historically was far more powerful than in game. It wouldn’t be balanced to give them army focuses especially tank ones. But I do believe they should have a significant land doctrines research bonus as their doctrine was superb for the entire war, just not tank research.

As to the rest of your post, I really don’t see how this tree is an improvement at all to the current tree. There’s no clear historical path (its blended with the bleeding communist path for some reason) and the ahistorical options are a bit bland for my taste. Additionally, the Congress mechanic is going to make PP a very sparse resource for any aspiring US player.
 

currylambchop

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I don’t get why the war plans weren’t merged with the political tree. Right now it seems like the new political tree, especially the historical path, lacks an actual direction of what the country’s aims are, which is a change for the worse.
 

currylambchop

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modern Europe-style socialism rather than a worker's council communism
That’s confusing social democracy (which is modern Europe) with actual socialism. The tree should just switch the subideology of the Democratic Party to ‘Democratic socialism’ instead of magically making you communist.
 

SwissKiran

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@Bratyn Are we going to see a change in the US Rule that it can't join a different ideology? As far as I can see there's no "real" Communist or Fascist path and joining countries by focus is somewhat cringy. Although I can see the idea behind the US not joining anything but like-minded countries, it's very limiting in terms of non-standard multiplayer sessions. Just as an idea: would it make sense to remove the restriction or add "can join communist/fascist faction" if you flirt enough with one side or the other?
 

JBerg2021

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After watching the Stream yesterday, I had a few thoughts and impressions on the new historical flavor in the US focus tree and faction, specifically for the added ministers.

Why no Democratic Limitations? It seems odd to me that the ministers already available (Stimson, Taft, Nelson, Hull) aren't limited in their availability if the player decides to go Communist or Fascist. I don't think it's unreasonable that they would remain available as the player might flirt, but none of these guys would have actively supported the Communist Party or a Fascist regime.

Stability Increase from Reformers? It also seems odd to me that the Anti-Communist Crusader would increase stability in a country. Really, logically, any of the political reformers ought to be lowering stability to indicate how society is being turned on its head and the existing government's fundamental legitimacy is being challenged. It would make far more sense if all reformers in the game decreased stability by 5% when chosen (especially since, as more of the population converts, there is less need and should be less desire for the player to keep that minister active in the government).

Thoughts on Specific Ministers
  • Joseph McCarthy: He should not be in the game. I know he's the anti-communist crusader we all remember from history, but at the time of HOI4 he was only just out of law school and starting his professional life and political career. The actual HUAC Chairman at the time was Martin Dies, Jr., a conservative Dixiecrat from Texas. He would make far more sense as the Anti-Communist Crusader. (And don't tell me you're going for familiarity among the gamers here, because no one knows who Donald Nelson is).
  • Robert Taft: He probably shouldn't be a Silent Workhorse in the game. A better fit would be the Backroom Backstabber, especially if he was limited to only working in a Democratic government. He was a traditionalist and, if in power, would have seriously hampered the efforts of any reformers to increase the power of the central government.
  • Other Ideas
    • Fritz Kuhn: You added the focus to work with the German-American Bund. Why not make Kuhn an available adviser when that focus is chosen?
    • De-Segregation Focus: It would be nice if moving down this path made an African-American adviser or two available.
    • America First: Certainly some names here, like Robert E. Wood (the Chairman), Joseph Patterson and Robert McCormick (Publishers), and William Regnery (Businessmen).
    • Minister Availability: One of the ways to increase the Historical Accuracy of the ministers would be to put all of them (except maybe Morgenthau, Nelson, and Stimson) behind Focus walls. Taft and other conservatives (both Democrats and Republicans) could become available at places down the Gold Standard tree, and certain important names from Roosevelt's Administration (Byrnes, Wallace, Hopkins) or more liberal names (Wheeler, etc) could become available down the New Deal tree.
I was surprised that there wasn't more built out beyond the mechanics, though in hindsight reworking the tree and adding the Congress system must have been significant effort. I'm hoping the Developers aren't done with trying to build out the flavor here though, especially since Ministers, though not a huge part of the game, can add some fun history and play style to the game.
 

Feltan

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I think HOI4 is a wonderful game for Paradox. However, this latest addition to the U.S. is something that I think the developers are going to regret. I think it is going to suck. The U.S. will be some divergent sub-game that doesn't come close to modelling reality or branches of reality that had any likelihood. I suspect in subsequent versions of the game, a great deal of effort is going to be needed to modify/delete this effort and the forums are going to be chocker-block full of complaints.

Regards,
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Dlin369

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Just a flavor suggestion - Is there any way to lock the HUAC focus (or at least McCarthy) behind the Soviets (or better yet any communist major) generating world tension?
 

LiberiusX

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I think HOI4 is a wonderful game for Paradox. However, this latest addition to the U.S. is something that I think the developers are going to regret. I think it is going to suck. The U.S. will be some divergent sub-game that doesn't come close to modelling reality or branches of reality that had any likelihood. I suspect in subsequent versions of the game, a great deal of effort is going to be needed to modify/delete this effort and the forums are going to be chocker-block full of complaints.

Regards,
Feltan
I don’t think it will be that bad, but compared to the British and Dutch trees, the new US tree’s potential “story” looks rather milquetoast.

One confusing thing that we touched on earlier, that I still haven’t seen a satisfactory answer to is why all many of the “fascist” NF’s are centered around privatisation. You know why that seems so bizarre? Vicky 2 modeled fascists appropriately being tied to state capitalism...but HOI4 is now insinuating Libertarian(read Laissez Faire) policies are fascist...huh?
 
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Gorgo Primus

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Still think it is utterly ridiculous and nonsensical to have the Silver Shirts restore the CSA in the 1930s. Nobody in the period wanted to do anything like that (that particular 'evolution' of the Lost Cause started up after the civil rights movement picked up steam in the ~1960s) and the Silver Shirts were explicitly not Lost Causers in any event. They were nationalists who were in the camp of people who thought the CSA were traitors, and their founder/leader William Dudley Pelley - the man who in HOI4 will now almost always go on to become President of the new CSA if he takes power - liked to rant about how he was convinced the CSA was a Jewish and French plot to destroy the Union.

Just cause some of your players have a weird fixation on the CSA doesn't mean you have to shove it into everything even where/when it makes no sense guys! If you insist on the CSA being restored for no reason as part of the focus tree, you could at least make it Non-Aligned or an alternate fascist path under a different fictional party (since I don't think you'll find any historical party from the period calling for that sort of thing).
 

LiberiusX

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Still think it is utterly ridiculous and nonsensical to have the Silver Shirts restore the CSA in the 1930s. Nobody in the period wanted to do anything like that (that particular 'evolution' of the Lost Cause started up after the civil rights movement picked up steam in the ~1960s) and the Silver Shirts were explicitly not Lost Causers in any event. They were nationalists who were in the camp of people who thought the CSA were traitors, and their founder/leader William Dudley Pelley - the man who in HOI4 will now almost always go on to become President of the new CSA if he takes power - liked to rant about how he was convinced the CSA was a Jewish and French plot to destroy the Union.

Just cause some of your players have a weird fixation on the CSA doesn't mean you have to shove it into everything even where/when it makes no sense guys! If you insist on the CSA being restored for no reason as part of the focus tree, you could at least make it Non-Aligned or an alternate fascist path under a different fictional party (since I don't think you'll find any historical party from the period calling for that sort of thing).
Yeh, I have to agree. The new US tree just seems kind of bleh...not really sure that’s PDS’s fault though. The US’s geographic isolation and overwhelming might has always made it a strange power to fit into these types of games.
 

Lorehead

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Sorry if someone brought this up and I missed it. There was a plot in 1934 to replace the New Deal with a fascist government, according to General Smedley Butler, who testified that a number of prominent business leaders attempted to recruit him. (https://timeline.com/business-plot-overthrow-fdr-9a59a012c32a)

This would provably make good flavor in-game for the focus tree.
 

LAF1994

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Still think it is utterly ridiculous and nonsensical to have the Silver Shirts restore the CSA in the 1930s. Nobody in the period wanted to do anything like that (that particular 'evolution' of the Lost Cause started up after the civil rights movement picked up steam in the ~1960s) and the Silver Shirts were explicitly not Lost Causers in any event. They were nationalists who were in the camp of people who thought the CSA were traitors, and their founder/leader William Dudley Pelley - the man who in HOI4 will now almost always go on to become President of the new CSA if he takes power - liked to rant about how he was convinced the CSA was a Jewish and French plot to destroy the Union.

Just cause some of your players have a weird fixation on the CSA doesn't mean you have to shove it into everything even where/when it makes no sense guys! If you insist on the CSA being restored for no reason as part of the focus tree, you could at least make it Non-Aligned or an alternate fascist path under a different fictional party (since I don't think you'll find any historical party from the period calling for that sort of thing).
Why would an American fascist regime be 'pro-Confederate' in the first place? The Confederates were separatists, and generally fascist regimes have a very poor opinion of separatism.
 

James Hale

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Why would an American fascist regime be 'pro-Confederate' in the first place? The Confederates were separatists, and generally fascist regimes have a very poor opinion of separatism.
It's Paradox.

Memery > History
 

Dlin369

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During the stream today, right as the civil war began the player controlled USA became non-aligned and the president became a generic (I’m guessing placeholder, given the name was Hinchie Mclaws) before the MacArthur event fires.

Was/or will there be an event explaining the fate of President Landon (was he killed it did he step down, flee)? Or was he supposed to become the leader of the non-aligned and they forgot to script him in? Either one (though preferably the latter) would help tie the story together from how the USA descends into a dictatorship in a HoI4 game.

I love how this dlc is shaping up so far, and I can’t wait to see the finished product!

Edit: Also will any generals switch to the Loyalist side along with MacArthur?
 
Last edited:

Yankee1863

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During the stream today, right as the civil war began the player controlled USA became non-aligned and the president became a generic (I’m guessing placeholder, given the name was Hinchie Mclaws) before the MacArthur event fires.

Was/or will there be an event explaining the fate of President Landon (was he killed it did he step down, flee)? Or was he supposed to become the leader of the non-aligned and they forgot to script him in? Either one (though preferably the latter) would help tie the story together from how the USA descends into a dictatorship in a HoI4 game.

I love how this dlc is shaping up so far, and I can’t wait to see the finished product!

Edit: Also will any generals switch to the Loyalist side along with MacArthur?
They need to get rid of that placeholder neutral guy. They also need to get rid of that Victoria II Monarchist flag relic and use a proper American flag - something with an eagle perhaps. They could just draw inspiration from Kaiserreich as they've already done with "American Caesar".

I'd be interested in knowing why the rebels are democrats (small d) as opposed to communists. Are your opponents also Democrats if you take the Communist path? Happy that they share the same tree though, just with a different path selected.

And please get rid of that awful orange color.
 

Dlin369

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They need to get rid of that placeholder neutral guy. They also need to get rid of that Victoria II Monarchist flag relic and use a proper American flag - something with an eagle perhaps. They could just draw inspiration from Kaiserreich as they've already done with "American Caesar".

I'd be interested in knowing why the rebels are democrats (small d) as opposed to communists. Are your opponents also Democrats if you take the Communist path? Happy that they share the same tree though, just with a different path selected.

And please get rid of that awful orange color.
I think the idea is that the rebels are democrats but they are able (and probably will be scripted) to take the communist path to show the increasing radicalization of the war, kinda like how the Loyalists start off non-aligned (and can stay that way) instead of going immediately fascist. Hopefully though the placeholder will be swapped with Alf Landon (or Wendel Wilkie) to show that he's still in charge but no recognized by democratic supporters, propped up only really by the fascists and nationalists.

I strongly agree with both.

As I've said earlier in the thread, the idea of Southern fascist separatism as a response to desegregation is a great idea, but it's a horrible idea to have the United States itself become the Confederacy.

Neo-Confederate ideology is very specifically a manifestation of Southern nationalism. That's all the Confederacy ever was: a Southern nationalist movement.
It looks like embracing the confederacy isn't required for the American civil war (or at least you can stay non-aligned and fight the civil war), so I predict either
1.) Going fascist does not mean you have to embrace the confederacy and there is a way to go fascist during the civil war and put Pelly in charge. If this is the case embracing the confederacy will probably give boosts in the Southern states at the cost of making reconstruction harder and probably create a new fascist leader like Fritz Julius Kuhn
2.) "Traditional" fascists like the ones you described will be represented by non-aligned and be allied with Authoritarian-Capitalists and other nationalists like MacArthur. The "fascist" USA will represent the Confederacy and emphasize their racism (without mentioning their distrust of central government, which was detrimental during their rebellion
 

Gorgo Primus

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There was no need to turn to the memory of the CSA for support for racism during this period though - the entire USA was structured around a racist white consensus at the time. Fascists in the US were looking to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy abroad and the 2nd KKK at home (which you'll note also didn't call for a restoration of the CSA) for inspirations, not a failed rebellion restricted to the South from before they were born.

I'll also be the second person here to point out that the only fascist coup that was actually seriously plotted and which we know about in the 1930s was the Business Plot, which was based in New England and again had no intention of restoring the CSA.
 
Last edited:

Edgar Harford

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I think it would be cool to see the Japanese conduct some kind of "Committee of American Affairs" that would invite key interested nations(i.e. Canada, Panama) who would be interested in dividing up American islands and colonies/ outlier states (e.g. Alaska, Panama Canal) with the Japanese if ever there were some kind of American Civil War.
 

Lemont Elwood

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    • Minister Availability: One of the ways to increase the Historical Accuracy of the ministers would be to put all of them (except maybe Morgenthau, Nelson, and Stimson) behind Focus walls. Taft and other conservatives (both Democrats and Republicans) could become available at places down the Gold Standard tree, and certain important names from Roosevelt's Administration (Byrnes, Wallace, Hopkins) or more liberal names (Wheeler, etc) could become available down the New Deal tree.
Speaking of Morgenthau, it would be nice if there were some options for the Allies as to how they deal with Germany in the immediate aftermath of the war, with the Morgenthau Plan being one option. Basically destroying Germany's economic base and military manpower with no real hope of rebuilding it.