HOI 4 Counters

[21oliver]

My point was on the forum we talk "generally" so when someone tries to be literal to prove a point it just irks me. Whether we get them or not, the majority of posters (not me, not a few, but the majority..) on the HOI3 & HOI4 forum know what we are talking about when we refer to "counters", we are talking about the same ones (nato or not) that have been in the game all along and in most wargames since the 1970's. To argue otherwise is where beating a dead horse comes in. So no, to most of the community counters will not be represented in HOI4. Now whether they should or shouldnt be, whether we get mods, etc... that is a whole different story.

 

[NiclasCage]

The discussion over what a counter is in this regard is just stupid. Everybody in these threads know exactly what we are talking about. That they put in a new and different counter is true, and therefore the guys saying "shut up, there ARE counters in the game" will offcourse be correct. But it doesn't help the issue at all, and you are trolling just as much - if not more - than those of us asking for the old NATO-style counters that they have been using for all the Hearts of Iron-games up until this one.

And yes, they might not show as much information as the new ones. They might look a bit strange on the new map. They might miss features that the new counters have. But to a whole bunch of us that doesn't matter. It isn't about being assholes either. I don't know why I want them, I just know that I do. The same way I like my girlfriend more than other women. It might not make any sense at all, but to me she's special and the "new" version of women out there can't change how I feel. This isn't even a joke, I'm actually trying to explain this from my point of view. And I'm not alone - we are quite alot of players that would LOVE for PDS to include the old counters.

If this game is good, as I think it might be, I will happily pay $300 for it IF I can play with counters. If I cannot play with counters - and here I am referring offcourse to the OLD type of counters, not these new fancy ones - I won't pay any more than $3 for it.

 

[Caesar15]

The discussion over what a counter is in this regard is just stupid. Everybody in these threads know exactly what we are talking about. That they put in a new and different counter is true, and therefore the guys saying "shut up, there ARE counters in the game" will offcourse be correct. But it doesn't help the issue at all, and you are trolling just as much - if not more - than those of us asking for the old NATO-style counters that they have been using for all the Hearts of Iron-games up until this one.

And yes, they might not show as much information as the new ones. They might look a bit strange on the new map. They might miss features that the new counters have. But to a whole bunch of us that doesn't matter. It isn't about being assholes either. I don't know why I want them, I just know that I do. The same way I like my girlfriend more than other women. It might not make any sense at all, but to me she's special and the "new" version of women out there can't change how I feel. This isn't even a joke, I'm actually trying to explain this from my point of view. And I'm not alone - we are quite alot of players that would LOVE for PDS to include the old counters.

If this game is good, as I think it might be, I will happily pay $300 for it IF I can play with counters. If I cannot play with counters - and here I am referring offcourse to the OLD type of counters, not these new fancy ones - I won't pay any more than $3 for it.

You won't buy the game just because they don't have counters? (I know you said under $3, but that is unrealistic, and it won't be that price for years). Counters are just a small thing, and refusing to play because it isn't there is just silly. That's like people not playing Eu4 because the map is 3D, or the music isn't the same. It's just silly to me. But whatever, you buy what you like.

 

[21oliver]

Counters are just a small thing, and refusing to play because it isn't there is just silly.

Whats silly is making a comment like that. Each person plays for his own reasons, likes what they like etc... Every person can point to something the other person likes or dislikes and state that its silly. We all have our own priorities. To me the most ridiculous thing Ive ever seen is a toy soldier standing on my map. Sprites are absolutely stupid imo. Now everyone doesnt feel that way, and I dont think your silly, stupid or ridiculous for not feeling the way I do, its simply a preference thing, like everything else in life. Its been made abundantly clear on this forum that the nato style counters not being present is a huge disapointment for a large amount of players.

 

[safe-keeper]

The discussion over what a counter is in this regard is just stupid. Everybody in these threads know exactly what we are talking about.

Um, no, actually, if you read the threads, any thread, from the map DD to this one, there has been confusion in pretty much every single one. That's not me trolling or being difficult on purpose, that's actually the way I see it. If you want to avoid confusion, say "NATO counters" when you mean NATO counters.

A square or rectangular chcoolate cake is still a cake. A round or rectangular counter is still a counter.

That they put in a new and different counter is true, and therefore the guys saying "shut up, there ARE counters in the game" will offcourse be correct. But it doesn't help the issue at all, and you are trolling just as much - if not more - than those of us asking for the old NATO-style counters that they have been using for all the Hearts of Iron-games up until this one.

I don't believe either side is trolling, though I do find certain (far from all) pro-NATO counter individuals are being far more zealous about their wishes than I can frankly understand. I really do get that there's a nostalgia factor involved, I just don't understand that people think they are that important.

But I don't know if anything can be gained here. I feel people are just rehashing the same arguments over and over (not that I am any better), so I think I'll let this be my last post in this thread.

 

[No idea]

Is this thread not locked yet? I haven't seen any good come out of this thread other than "THERE WONT BE COUNTERS ITS THE END TIMES!!! DEVS Y WONT U LISTEN TO ME FOR THE HUNDRETH TIME!?!".

Despite the fact that counters have been confirmed and shown all over the forums.

This kind of threads have been locked because of people tend to squabble.

On any case, there wont be counters as we know them so please, stop confusing people.

 

[21oliver]

Hell at this point Im hoping we get a game, I'll worry about counters later...

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

As someone has mentioned. I hope for a mod that can get rid of the sprites (or a DLC), and I want another options for counters than the silly ones we see in screenshots (either a mod or a dlc)

Ideally, Paradox releases such a DLC at the same time as the game is for sale. If they also release a DLC with the OOB from HOI3 (or an improved one) I would buy it, almost at any cost.

Podcat mentioned that it was possible to mod the map in to 2D and make counters, but he said it would require ALOT of work, so we'll see if it happens or not, if not, maybe it will come out as DLC. Let's hope the game is otherwise awesome, so there is motivation enough modding that

 

[Modestus]

I think the first thing to say about the Counters in HOI IV is that they are not the actual individual units but an overview of all the units in a province at a particular moment in time so a Counter in HOI IV can be 1 Division or 10 Divisions it is not a single unit though it can be at certain times.


I would suggest that its better to conceptualise a Counter in HOI IV as a means of communicating information to a player that just happens to look like a Counter, its telling you how many Divisions and what type are in a province their overall strength and organisation and what country they belong to but its not comparable to a Counter in HOI III, the Counter in HOI III is in fact comparable to the Sprite in HOI IV.


So the first Question you should ask is a Counter in HOI III superior to a Sprite in HOI IV with regards the information that it conveys to the player and the answer is clearly yes.


Next question you should ask is a combination of the Sprite and the Counter in HOI IV with regards the information that it conveys to the player superior to the Counter in HOI III?
I would answer yes and no, the Sprite is almost irrelevant at most zoom levels and while the Counter itself is giving you an overview that you did not have in HOI III most of its information is exactly the same as the HOI III Counter, Flag, Division type the only real difference is that at a glance you can tell how many and what type of units you have in a province.


The final Question you should ask would a combination of a HOI III Counter and a HOI IV Counter be superior to all of the above and the answer is unequivocally yes.


And why do we not have that ? Because Paradox wanted a 3D world with 3D models.

 

[Lech Kaczynski]

Lets stay away from post counts & join dates. What does matter is community involvement. Lukers are some of the people we are 'talking' to, but what we are mostly 'talking' to is other community members of the HoI community to get/give our feedback on our ideas & concerns and them hope the Devs see them and keep them in mind as they work on the game.

What the Devs & you are calling counters is not what a core of wargame enthusiasts call counters and this has caused confusion. Do you have a better term that would be less confusing?

I don't so much care what the center graphic is (so long as it is modable) and it can be a NATO style symbol, German WWII symbol, picture or helmet. So to those who like the idea of counters, don't get stuck on the use of NATO-style counters as we are just trying to be clear and not pushing others to use just what we want to use. We are the 'pro-choice group' and the models group is the 'we know better' and you must use our style icons not what you want.

podcat has said he is not making a wargame..... hence no nato counters, or some equivalent: this is a grand strategy (wizard) game. Everyone wants to do silly things in this game, like very concerned about peace mechanics etc. because that really matters when there is nothing to do beyond the end of the war.

i like sprites because i can mod them, and finally make this game what is supposed to be, Gundam: One Year War

 

[safe-keeper]

"What is this?! I said I wanted a cake!"
"Er... this is a cake."
"No, it's not! It's rectangular!"
"...so it's a rectangular cake."
"No! Cakes are round! This is a pastry, a confection, a treat, a sweet course, a dessert -- but I refuse to call it a cake! Cakes must be round, because that's what I'm used to!"
"Eeeh... okay... and this is really important to you?"
"Absolutely! I refuse to eat anything but round cakes! Also I don't understand what it tries to communicate!"
"But it clearly says "Happy birthday Andrew" and the number 23 in bright and colourful capital letters!"
"Yes! How am I supposed to interpret that? I'm used to cakes having candles that are equal in number to the years the person being celebrated has lived! Why are you forcing me to learn an entirely new system from scratch?!"
"..."

 

[Lech Kaczynski]

"What is this?! I said I wanted a cake!"
"Er... this is a cake."
"No, it's not! It's rectangular!"
"...so it's a rectangular cake."
"No! Cakes are round! This is a pastry, a confection, a treat, a sweet course, a dessert -- but I refuse to call it a cake! Cakes must be round, because that's what I'm used to!"
"Eeeh... okay... and this is really important to you?"
"Absolutely! I refuse to eat anything but round cakes! Also I don't understand what it tries to communicate!"
"But it clearly says "Happy birthday Andrew" and the number 23 in bright and colourful capital letters!"
"Yes! How am I supposed to interpret that? I'm used to cakes having candles that are equal in number to the years the person being celebrated has lived! Why are you forcing me to learn an entirely new system from scratch?!"
"..."

fruit...... Fruit

Titts..... Titts


Count me in if the sprites make tank noises, and if the soliders count their push-up. Going to be so cute.

 

[tommylotto]

I think the first thing to say about the Counters in HOI IV is that they are not the actual individual units but an overview of all the units in a province at a particular moment in time so a Counter in HOI IV can be 1 Division or 10 Divisions it is not a single unit though it can be at certain times.


I would suggest that its better to conceptualise a Counter in HOI IV as a means of communicating information to a player that just happens to look like a Counter, its telling you how many Divisions and what type are in a province their overall strength and organisation and what country they belong to but its not comparable to a Counter in HOI III, the Counter in HOI III is in fact comparable to the Sprite in HOI IV.


So the first Question you should ask is a Counter in HOI III superior to a Sprite in HOI IV with regards the information that it conveys to the player and the answer is clearly yes.


Next question you should ask is a combination of the Sprite and the Counter in HOI IV with regards the information that it conveys to the player superior to the Counter in HOI III?
I would answer yes and no, the Sprite is almost irrelevant at most zoom levels and while the Counter itself is giving you an overview that you did not have in HOI III most of its information is exactly the same as the HOI III Counter, Flag, Division type the only real difference is that at a glance you can tell how many and what type of units you have in a province.


The final Question you should ask would a combination of a HOI III Counter and a HOI IV Counter be superior to all of the above and the answer is unequivocally yes.


And why do we not have that ? Because Paradox wanted a 3D world with 3D models.

I agree the new HoiIV counter is not suppose to be the representative of the unit. It is a cool additional graphic device to convey additional information to the player. Remember, it also combines units from multiple provinces into one as you zoom out and separates them as you zoom in. It is a great addition to, but not a replacement for the Hoi3 counter. The Hoi3 counter is definitely being replaced by the 3D model. What is needed is a 3D counter to replace the 3D model accompanied by the new fangled HoiIV counter thingy. I thought I saw that vonboe was able to create a 3d model that looked like a counter to replace a sprite. That is something, but will not be perfect, as playing with counters ideally requires some sense of the height of the stack.

 

[Alwar]

I refuse to buy the new HOI 4 until it have NATO counters. I just dont understand why they do one good step and 3 bad ones. Hoi 3 would be so much better with HOI 2 tech and production that baffles me and now in hoi 4 we are losing a LOT of stuff that make hoi 3 good like a chain of command, stockpiles, money (captured gold reserves did a major role in ww2) or nato counters for fixes in gameplay that should be there since the first hoi and some ugly and childish toy soldier in the map.

If this isnt dumbing down the game i dont know what it is.

 

[Bernard Black]

I dont really want to get too much involved in this discussion but i'd like to point out some things to consider.

The debate about what counters are and what they are supposed to look like is very confusing. Yes, a lot of people have very specific expectations how a counter is supposed to look like, but for me and probably many others it isn't, so being clear about what you want so that people which don't already agree with you understand what it is you want them to consider, should be in your best interest and i think it would be best to make your case to everyone and not just those "core wargamers".

Secondly, i'd like to say i don't really understand how this is a purchase deciding issue. I personally enjoy Paradox Games for their mechanics and the simulation of complex systems, this is there i feel the core of these games lie and it seems rather odd, that the question of how troops get represented on the map gets so much emotion.

Thirdly i think we should consider that while Paradox Games are heavily inspired by Boardgames, they are not Boardgames. While earlier Titles had to rely alot on imitiating their Boardgame heritage, they can now experiment to change concepts which are sound on a table but rather clumsy in a digital setting. Counters can now change in size, merge or divide themselves according to zoom level and i hope this concept gets expanded so we get more contextualized information. It is only normal, that they iterate on older concepts and even for the fear of failing i think they should do that, to see what works and what doesn't.

I give them the benefit of the doubt, that their approach will work out and even if it doesn't we have seen them several times to change game mechanics in EUIV or CK2 in patches when they felt it didn't work. And if the demand is there,we will see a NATO-Counters only DLC or Mod in notime.

Regards

 

[GeneralPetrov]

I dont really want to get too much involved in this discussion but i'd like to point out some things to consider.

The debate about what counters are and what they are supposed to look like is very confusing. Yes, a lot of people have very specific expectations how a counter is supposed to look like, but for me and probably many others it isn't, so being clear about what you want so that people which don't already agree with you understand what it is you want them to consider, should be in your best interest and i think it would be best to make your case to everyone and not just those "core wargamers".

Secondly, i'd like to say i don't really understand how this is a purchase deciding issue. I personally enjoy Paradox Games for their mechanics and the simulation of complex systems, this is there i feel the core of these games lie and it seems rather odd, that the question of how troops get represented on the map gets so much emotion.

Thirdly i think we should consider that while Paradox Games are heavily inspired by Boardgames, they are not Boardgames. While earlier Titles had to rely alot on imitiating their Boardgame heritage, they can now experiment to change concepts which are sound on a table but rather clumsy in a digital setting. Counters can now change in size, merge or divide themselves according to zoom level and i hope this concept gets expanded so we get more contextualized information. It is only normal, that they iterate on older concepts and even for the fear of failing i think they should do that, to see what works and what doesn't.

I give them the benefit of the doubt, that their approach will work out and even if it doesn't we have seen them several times to change game mechanics in EUIV or CK2 in patches when they felt it didn't work. And if the demand is there,we will see a NATO-Counters only DLC or Mod in notime.

Regards

Alas some sense in this thread, other than stupid name calling and witty comebacks. It seems the mods are on holiday.

 

[21oliver]

Again it all comes down to personal preference. If it was me and I was PI I would have found a way to appease both sides. Regardless of what may be said HOI4 is a wargame pure and simply, the rest is window dressing. Plenty of wargame companies produce their games to look exactly like board games (nato counters, hexes etc...) and have done well because there is a huge market out there, mostly of veteran wargamers. I feel PI is trying to cross over with HOI4 from being a traditional wargame to something along the lines of their other series, in hopes to attract more potential customers. I understand that, I really do. I however would have found a way to include the nato counters as you had the option in previous games sprites or counters.

 

[GundamMerc]

podcat has said he is not making a wargame..... hence no nato counters, or some equivalent: this is a grand strategy (wizard) game. Everyone wants to do silly things in this game, like very concerned about peace mechanics etc. because that really matters when there is nothing to do beyond the end of the war.

i like sprites because i can mod them, and finally make this game what is supposed to be, Gundam: One Year War

I would prefer HOI 3 style counters in such a mod, please.

 

[jamesd]

I'm one of the pro NATO counters group of players so I'll try to explain why I want them. I've been playing wargames since I was 6 years old, which is 34 years now. The vast majority of those games have used the NATO symbols on counters. I've played HOI since the original was published. HOI3 was fantastic for me because it included NATO counters - it felt like I was home. It was even enough to distract from some of the other mechanics that just did not work, like having no control over convoys to keep them out of the Med as the UK, or the supply system. I looked at the sprites in HOI3 and I hated them. If there was no option to play with counters in HOI3, I would have quickly stopped playing it. From what I've seen of the sprites in HOI4, I don't like them. I will buy the initial release of HOI4, but if my initial impression of the sprites is confirmed and there aren't other mechanics that are just so good they outweigh my dislike for the sprites, I won't buy any expansions unless or until there is an option to play without the sprites and with NATO counters. As I have said on other threads, I don't want to force all players to play with NATO counters, but I very much want the option to exist.

 

[Big Nev]

Although I'd be loathed to say I won't buy the game if it doesn't have "proper" counters, I certainly hope there's a demo released so that I, and many other grognards out there, can check them out first and decide.

As it stands at the moment though...

I'm really NOT a fan of the new map. Yes, it's very pretty, but I like a war-game map to look like a map.

I'm really NOT a fan of toy soldiers . Unless I'm playing on a table top with hundreds of them, a rulebook, bucket loads of dice, a tape measure, bottle of wine &/or a few cans.

But, I suppose, I have to accept that I'm a bit of a dinosaur.


I thought the Total War series of games did sprites really well. They took the place of my table top armies and did all the dice-rolling in the background. Brilliant! But the campaign map looked like a map. At least until the Rome ones which, IMHO, were crap. But HoI isn't that kind of game and to represent a stack of combined arms divisions as one toy soldier, IMHO, just doesn't look like it's going to work very well.

I've read & re-read the stuff posted by the dev's (thanks again podcat) and I'm still not convinced. I do, however, remain in hope to be convinced.