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Played all major titles from Blizzard, since release except for WOW.

I will laugh at you for saying Diablo2 was unplayable, I will laugh at you some more for the same thing at Warcraft3 or Starcarft.

But let's hear your definition of unplayable and btw was HOI3 unplayable according to it?

My definition of unplayable was sitting in server queues until you finally could join a game, then the lag being so bad you could not do anything anyways.

HoI3, for me atleast, was not all that unplayable (barring a few glitches, corrupted save files, and CTDs). Right now it is not all that fun to play while trying to world conquest as the computer does not want to send supplies to hardly any of the random ports that I own. Units in core territory still randomly go out of suppply as well.

Also, most of the gameplay elements did not work at all at launch (unless you call working the opposite that they should, working). There are still many "gamebreaking" elements that still do not work at all (like supply). It is not unplayable, just really hard to play/enjoy sometimes.

I can see where some of the people that call this game unplayable. By some people, I mean the ones that experienced constant CTDs, BSoDs, and saved games that would not load (after all.

Like Blizzard, Paradox fixes their problems. I played EU3 pretty much since day one and I cannot remember hardly any of the problems that people still bring up.

I have no problems with people forgetting problems (as many games were released a long time ago), but saying there were not major problems is a blatant fallacy (unless you consider server queues and serious lag some hard core fun).
 

Firov

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I gave up on ETW 2 months ago and I bought it at release. I can compare HOI3 AND ETW. Can you?

Why, yes... yes I can. Hard to believe, I know, but there are at least a couple of people (maybe 3, including yourself) on this Earth who have played both E:TW and HOI3, and I count myself among them. On that note, I'll be signing autographs in the lobby after this post for anyone who is interested.

Like I said, both games are deeply flawed as far as the AI goes. I don't consider AI's that spam nothing but transports, masses troops on friendly borders, suddenly forgets what its doing and surrenders huge swaths of land to the enemy, and decides to research nothing but industrial techs a massive revolution in AI technology. I don't know, perhaps my standards are too high, as far as AI goes.

Similarly, E:TW has numerous AI flaws, such as AI's that refuse to launch amphibious invasions, and many other flaws that aren't worth going into here because these aren't the E:TW forums.

So, yes, I'd say they're both pretty much in the same boat. Which is why I find Johan's little comment there so ironic.
 

unmerged(12779)

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I once asked a major game developer why they can't make the AI think
like a normal human (if there are any left). He told me it would probably
take around 10 years (massive code) to even attempt it and it probably
would never be right (code does not have any emotion). That is why
playing a game vs. the AI is so VERY, VERY different than a MP game
where everything under the sun can & will prevail !!!


JIM
 

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I once asked a major game developer why they can't make the AI think
like a normal human (if there are any left). He told me it would probably
take around 10 years (massive code) to even attempt it and it probably
would never be right (code does not have any emotion). That is why
playing a game vs. the AI is so VERY, VERY different than a MP game
where everything under the sun can & will prevail !!!


JIM

We are not asking for perfect AI, just AI that does not do the opposite of what it should.

I can have 60+ threat against a neighbor and that is still not enough to motivate the AI to put any troops on the border. While I like the fact that the AI now protects key cities, it does so at the expense of border security. There needs to be some happy medium between 0 interior defense and 0 border defense (along with actually taking in to account neighbor threat).
 

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We are not asking for perfect AI, just AI that does not do the opposite of what it should.

I can have 60+ threat against a neighbor and that is still not enough to motivate the AI to put any troops on the border. While I like the fact that the AI now protects key cities, it does so at the expense of border security. There needs to be some happy medium between 0 interior defense and 0 border defense (along with actually taking in to account neighbor threat).

Agreed, seeing 30 German units surrounding Luxemburg while their Soviet border is empty is ridiculous, even if a human player raised Luxemburg's threat to crazy high levels.
 

Burning

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Comparing the HOI3 AI to E:TW must be a joke, isn't it?

No game has EVER included such a complex AI system that covers areas which integrate directly into the game, its handling at such a grade of dynamism. In HOI you got AIs for managing Economy, trade, diplomacy, several different levels of warfare, including different personalities of the AIs behavior, and an engine that is even complex for humans to play. Just think about how complex the AI-Brains and their rulesets must be.
Of course, as this is really the first game that includes AI feature of this scale, the various AI's performance is far away from being perfect. But overall, it's working pretty well, and I think this is a new direction, in which the currently stuck strategy-game genre will evolve in the future.

OK, no you got me... i lied... there are software-products that include even more complex AI and game mechanics... those are used in the military and at several academies for simulation and training.
HOI3 was developed for a bit more than a year, and released a month ago.


As a gamer since 20 years, i have seen far worse AI-performances. And there we are. Do you remember Medieval: Total War? or Shogun? Those were GREAT games! Extremely simple campaign, and rudimentary combat AI... BUT it worked. Those two games were state of the art at the turn of the millennium, outstanding combat-graphics, great flair, wonderful gameplay.

Then came the Rome: TW Engine.

The campaign existed... but just did not work, major features that were in the predecessors did not exist, and were never added either. When Allying an AI nation, it would declare war on you the next turn(always).
The combat AI was more than stupid...

Oh... my 2 regiment army is being attacked by 2000 heavily armed AI soliders, they are far more advanced than my two pitiful units...
Ah! Who cares! I have a single regiment of archers... the enemy will stop right in front of them, and let them mow down the AI troops. This bug is and was known in Rome, Medieval 2 and Empire(ok, not so many archers there...), but never fixed. OK there were some innovative changes in gameplay, like no more nearly UNLIMITED ammunition for Archers...

When talking about E:TW... the only part that's actually nice and new about that renamed Medieval, is the innovative naval combat...
Yes, you heard right! No naval combat before E:TW, just numbers :)
Isn't naval combat the killer argument to buying a game, where the rest exception tactical combat is completely and utterly broken?

Good job!

And now think again to compare a broken eye-candy Tactical-Arcade-Combat Game to something of the scale of HOI3. :D
 

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Comparing the HOI3 AI to E:TW must be a joke, isn't it?

No game has EVER included such a complex AI system that covers areas which integrate directly into the game, its handling at such a grade of dynamism. In HOI you got AIs for managing Economy, trade, diplomacy, several different levels of warfare, including different personalities of the AIs behavior, and an engine that is even complex for humans to play. Just think about how complex the AI-Brains and their rulesets must be.
Of course, as this is really the first game that includes AI feature of this scale, the various AI's performance is far away from being perfect. But overall, it's working pretty well, and I think this is a new direction, in which the currently stuck strategy-game genre will evolve in the future.

OK, no you got me... i lied... there are software-products that include even more complex AI and game mechanics... those are used in the military and at several academies for simulation and training.
HOI3 was developed for a bit more than a year, and released a month ago.

As a gamer since 20 years, i have seen far worse AI-performances. And there we are. Do you remember Medieval: Total War? or Shogun? Those were GREAT games! Extremely simple campaign, and rudimentary combat AI... BUT it worked. Those two games were state of the art at the turn of the millennium, outstanding combat-graphics, great flair, wonderful gameplay.

Then came the Rome: TW Engine. The campaign existed... but did not work, major features that were in the predecessors did not exist, and were never added either.
The combat AI was more than stupid...
Oh... my 2 regiment army is being attacked by 2000 heavily armed AI armies that are far more advanced than my two pitiful units...

Ah! Who cares! I have a single regiment of archers... the enemy will stop right in front of them, and let them mow down the AI troops. That working and was known in Rome, Medieval 2 and Empire(ok, not so many archers there...), but never fixed. OK there were some innovative changes in gameplay, like no more nearly UNLIMITED ammunition for Archers...
When talking about E:TW... the only part that's actually nice and new about that renamed Medieval, is naval combat...

Yes! No naval combat before E:TW, just numbers :)
Isn't naval combat the killer argument to buying a game, where the rest exception tactical combat is completely and utterly broken?

Good job!

And now think again to compare a broken eye-candy Tactical-Arcade-Combat Game to something of the scale of HOI3. :D

As I mentioned earlier.

I wouldn't even have a problem with any of that if the AI in ETW could be modded by the public.

Thankfully, this is possible in HOI3.

All we need to do now is figure out how the Theatre system works and fix it with a good mod.
 

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Well I was waiting like crazy for ETW, and then got frustrated when I got it. First by the damn steam installation and then by the fubar code. The game runs like I have a spectrum or something. Takes 5 mins to pass a turn (damn 1 area countries grr) and 8 misn to load a battle. How high or low the graphics are is irrelevant!!
So to summarize and lol (or cry) I cant vote because I cant play ETW because of those problems without resorting back to smoking( that I quit) or using drugs or something and I also cant play HOI3 which with 1.2 patch still needs 15secs per day.
100euros well spent.And to think I waited soooo long for these game s;/ I was sure I d be stuck playing em for the next 3-4 years constantly.(I managed to finish the road to freedom campaign once).
 

Burning

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As I mentioned earlier.

I wouldn't even have a problem with any of that if the AI in ETW could be modded by the public.

Thankfully, this is possible in HOI3.

All we need to do now is figure out how the Theatre system works and fix it with a good mod.

Jep, thats the great thing about the EU3/HOI3 engine: we can basically do everything "to" the AI :)

And after one or two more patches, the AI will working much better than now... remember, this is an undiscovered country in the gaming industry.
 

TheLoneGunman

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Jep, thats the great thing about the EU3/HOI3 engine: we can basically do everything "to" the AI :)

And after one or two more patches, the AI will working much better than now... remember, this is an undiscovered country in the gaming industry.

If the same were true of ETW I'd be playing it right now.

As it stands, they've always generally ignored their modding community. In fact most companies do or even attack the modding community (look at the debacle that is Falcon 4.0).

Things might change soon, since Valva has shown great success with making money off of modders and PI's support of "Armageddon" and "For The Glory" which is their first attempts at letting modders hack away at their own precious source code.

If "For The Glory" does even somewhat decent, we can expect PI to show even further support.
 

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.And to think I waited soooo long for these game s;/ I was sure I d be stuck playing em for the next 3-4 years constantly.(I managed to finish the road to freedom campaign once).

Same. i really didn`t like Steam also, but I gave ETW the benefit of the doubt because of their propaganda and I used to be a long-term fan.

I think that`s another reason some of us are still mad at CA, because we followed their run-up release prop and 90% of what they said would be in the game wasn`t. Then when we complained they banned us and still kept saying their game was brilliant and to quote` The strategy game to benchmark against other strategy games`...

Basically, CA lied up to the eyeballs, sold us a game we couldn`t return (due to Steam, there are no non-Steam options) and took our money.

They are doing the same right now and one reason why patches are so slow is because they are working on pay-for DLCS and, of course, we now know NTW!

They are treating ETW players/fans like idiots in my humble opinion. taking our money, making excuses, while making more clones of the same thing that doesn`t work to take our money again.
 

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OK, no you got me... i lied... there are software-products that include even more complex AI and game mechanics... those are used in the military and at several academies for simulation and training.
HOI3 was developed for a bit more than a year, and released a month ago.

It is a little unfair to compare AI developed for general use on a PC and an AI that is developed for use on a server.

I bet Paradox can come up with a good AI for HoI3 if they were designing it to only be able to run on server networks that only corporations, military institutions, and academic institutions can afford.

You can pretty much brute force most of the AI if you have the processing power. The problem is personal computers are highly limited in what they can do. Either you can make an amazing AI that can only be used for a handful of people, or pretty much butcher the AI so it can be used by a vast majority of people.

I would hate to have to create programs for public use on personal computers because you have pretty much have to program for old cheap computers running on Windows (or any other mass market PC OS). You pretty much have to limit processing power, memory allocation, file transfer, and everything else.
 

Socratatus

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Anyway, AI is definitely a difficult thing to program, for instance, AI can be very subjective: what one person thinks is good strategy from the AI can be seen as bad from someone else. The truth of this POV is even evident in reality when we see two historians argue about the wisdom of real military leaders of any war. Did napoleon make an error in judgement? Was wellington just lucky rather than strategically smart?

So AI gets it in the neck from both sides.

But, I`ve seen games in the past do pretty competent AI if not anything close to human, and I`ve seen humans online act more stupidly than AI. Yet the Human is rarely called to task for it because the human can argue back and AI can`t!:D

Anyway, I think some games companies are literally ignoring AI programming until the last minute in favour for graphic eyecandy which seems clearly the case for Empires which, imho, has worse AI than their previous TWs.
 

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But, I`ve seen games in the past do pretty competent AI if not anything close to human, and I`ve seen humans online act more stupidly than AI. Yet the Human is rarely called to task for it because the human can argue back and AI can`t!:D

I am guessing you have never played mp games on XBox live or PSN. There is nothing a human can do without getting "complained" at. I say "complained" because it is much nicer than what actually happens.

I think people tend to be highly critical of AI, or rather, highly critical of everything. Some of it is because people want to be challenged, but only in a way that is comfortable to them. Some of it is because people like to "complain". Some of it is because AI really needs to improve.
 

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Reason why people are so fed-up with CA is that E:TW promised to be the new paradigm of gaming - especially the faction based tactics sounded intriguing. What did happen was that both strategic and tactical level AI's were as dumb as before. The game was lavish in visual terms but AI was not faction based and often downright terrible.

I have followed AI development for few years for fun and I believe I can safely state that AI is the new "Sound Card" for PC games just like "real recorded sounds" were back when I started playing PC games. Just about everyone in gaming is noticing that players demand better AI and industry is moving towards academics in unholy alliance to get better game AI.

However, the road to new holy grail is filled with dangers. While GOAP seems to be the new 'it' thing CA blew it with E:TW (which is the game engine with their next game N:TW) when they tried to get that noticeable AI performance increase. See following:
http://worthplaying.com/article/2008/12/1/interviews/57018/

WP: You've changed how the AI works for Total War. Can you explain that a little bit?

KB: Yeah. That's a massive overhaul. We scrapped the AI system and wrote it again from the start. We used to use what was called a state-based AI approach, which is very much like a chess game. It does A, then B, then C. Now we're using a system of goal-oriented action planning, or GOAP, which basically means that the AI is constantly looking at the status of forces on the battlefield, which of course, is resources, and it's got a list of jobs. Like, imagine you've got a list of post-its on your desk, and this is the number one thing I've got to do today, and this is the second. It moves those things around based on what's happening. So let's say its general is safely at the back of its army, right? And you're fighting very well and suddenly you outflank him. You come right around from the back, and there's a real chance that its general is in danger. The post-it note that says "Protected the general" goes from seventh to first, and then it looks at its resources and goes, "I've got artillery crews, I've got cavalry, I've got infantry. How do I achieve that objective now?" So what that means is you get a lot more dynamic backward and forward gameplay with the AI reacting to the things you're doing in real time, rather than going "I've got to do A, then I've got to do B," and if you interrupt it anywhere in that cycle, it doesn't get to the next step. Now, it's constantly looking at what its priorities should be to achieve its objectives and basing its movements and its actions around that exact thing.
 

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Reason why people are so fed-up with CA is that E:TW promised to be the new paradigm of gaming - especially the faction based tactics sounded intriguing. What did happen was that both strategic and tactical level AI's were as dumb as before. The game was lavish in visual terms but AI was not faction based and often downright terrible.

I have followed AI development for few years for fun and I believe I can safely state that AI is the new "Sound Card" for PC games just like "real recorded sounds" were back when I started playing PC games. Just about everyone in gaming is noticing that players demand better AI and industry is moving towards academics in unholy alliance to get better game AI.

However, the road to new holy grail is filled with dangers. While GOAP seems to be the new 'it' thing CA blew it with E:TW (which is the game engine with their next game N:TW) when they tried to get that noticeable AI performance increase. See following:
http://worthplaying.com/article/2008/12/1/interviews/57018/

WP: You've changed how the AI works for Total War. Can you explain that a little bit?

KB: Yeah. That's a massive overhaul. We scrapped the AI system and wrote it again from the start. We used to use what was called a state-based AI approach, which is very much like a chess game. It does A, then B, then C. Now we're using a system of goal-oriented action planning, or GOAP, which basically means that the AI is constantly looking at the status of forces on the battlefield, which of course, is resources, and it's got a list of jobs. Like, imagine you've got a list of post-its on your desk, and this is the number one thing I've got to do today, and this is the second. It moves those things around based on what's happening. So let's say its general is safely at the back of its army, right? And you're fighting very well and suddenly you outflank him. You come right around from the back, and there's a real chance that its general is in danger. The post-it note that says "Protected the general" goes from seventh to first, and then it looks at its resources and goes, "I've got artillery crews, I've got cavalry, I've got infantry. How do I achieve that objective now?" So what that means is you get a lot more dynamic backward and forward gameplay with the AI reacting to the things you're doing in real time, rather than going "I've got to do A, then I've got to do B," and if you interrupt it anywhere in that cycle, it doesn't get to the next step. Now, it's constantly looking at what its priorities should be to achieve its objectives and basing its movements and its actions around that exact thing.

Well that`s just one of the things that DIDN`T happen in the game. Also another big thing they harped on about was the CAI working with the BAI which everyone wanted... never happened. But these are just a few of the things that never got in.

ETW is a game that is NOT WAD, even now.

I think what makes it all worse is, as i said, their big push lying advertising propaganda that started about a year ago in the forums (which I used to frequent) with little Dev posts and vid clips, etc and continued right up to post release.

HOI3 was never extremely propagandarised with pure lies like ETW was. Not even any of the other TWs were so pushed in this way. If you look, there are still `in game footage` video that can be found showing stuff in ETW that`s NOT in ETW!

I think CA knew they had a seriously short-coming product and decided to go all out psuhing it using the philosphy that `the bigger the lie, the more they`ll believe it`.