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Bluestreak2k5

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Personally I never had a problem with allies militarizes in HOI3 once the AI ordering system bugs had been worked out. I could give Bulgaria, Romania, Japan, orders and they would follow with very good precision and do perfectly fine on their own.

I also understand why the full control was taken out. In HOI2 you could suicide your allies army into the enemy and thus save your troops the losses, and then simply capture the provinces with your troops. This is not important to consider in Normal difficulty, but under hard/very hard you are basically taking advantage of the fact that the AI has +40% bonuses/+80% bonuses to almost everything respectively, and thus they can reinforce their manpower and battle much more efficiently then your army can. This I agree with in taking away full control completely, its also unrealistic, which is what Hearts of Iron is trying to do, realistically model WWII.

However there were still bugs with HOI3. For example Hungary would not fight USSR nor would greece or Yugoslavia even if you gave them orders to do so. They would never send troops to help the front because they didn't have a border with USSR. This is a big issue that needs to be addressed in HOI4.

I also agree supply through puppets is a hard thing to tackle and I would rather the devs work on battleplans or anything else that actually then this issue, because its not an easy issue. It's not needed.

Tradeable Technologies is a horrible Idea as was demonstrated in HOI2. In multiplayer you could have multiple players silo research individual things, and then simply trade with their allies. This results in 2 countries getting 2 techs each at the cost of 1.5 techs each. This is broken.

Thus HOI3 you could not trade technologies directly, but you could improve their practicals. This is fine in theory, and works in multiplayer if you want to help them out. But in single player you simply have no idea what the AI is researching, and thus improving a practical of Infantry for Hungary they may not even research infantry until 3 years from now. This took it to the other extreme in making tech trading completely useless...

Thus My proposal was a mix between HOI2 and HOI3 where you see the techs your allies are working on and you can send 1 of your tech teams to their country to assist them in it. This isn't broken like in HOI2 because if your team takes up 1 slot from your country and their team takes up 1 slot, you would be able to help them at the cost of your country not advancing as rapidly as it could forgetting about them. You could still have the siloing effect, however, it will cost 2 countries 3X in time for 2 techs, where each country spend 1 time on each tech, then they each send a tech team to the other for helping them, making this not very practical except for either earning experience or for actually trying to help your allies out.
 
Last edited:

Porkman

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Personally I never had a problem with allies militarizes in HOI3 once the AI ordering system bugs had been worked out. I could give Bulgaria, Romania, Japan, orders and they would follow with very good precision and do perfectly fine on their own.

I also understand why the full control was taken out. In HOI2 you could suicide your allies army into the enemy and thus save your troops the losses, and then simply capture the provinces with your troops. This is not important to consider in Normal difficulty, but under hard/very hard you are basically taking advantage of the fact that the AI has +40% bonuses/+80% bonuses to almost everything respectively, and thus they can reinforce their manpower and battle much more efficiently then your army can. This I agree with in taking away full control completely, its also unrealistic, which is what Hearts of Iron is trying to do, realistically model WWII.

However there were still bugs with HOI3. For example Hungary would not fight USSR nor would greece or Yugoslavia even if you gave them orders to do so. They would never send troops to help the front because they didn't have a border with USSR. This is a big issue that needs to be addressed in HOI4.

I also agree supply through puppets is a hard thing to tackle and I would rather the devs work on battleplans or anything else that actually then this issue, because its not an easy issue. It's not needed.

Tradeable Technologies is a horrible Idea as was demonstrated in HOI2. In multiplayer you could have multiple players silo research individual things, and then simply trade with their allies. This results in 2 countries getting 2 techs each at the cost of 1.5 techs each. This is broken.

Thus HOI3 you could not trade technologies directly, but you could improve their practicals. This is fine in theory, and works in multiplayer if you want to help them out. But in single player you simply have no idea what the AI is researching, and thus improving a practical of Infantry for Hungary they may not even research infantry until 3 years from now. This took it to the other extreme in making tech trading completely useless...

Thus My proposal was a mix between HOI2 and HOI3 where you see the techs your allies are working on and you can send 1 of your tech teams to their country to assist them in it. This isn't broken like in HOI2 because if your team takes up 1 slot from your country and their team takes up 1 slot, you would be able to help them at the cost of your country not advancing as rapidly as it could forgetting about them. You could still have the siloing effect, but not nearly as bad as HOI2 in my opinion.


"Tradeable technology breaks the game for multiplayer" Not a valid reason for getting rid of it. Multiplayer games demand balance between the two sides which is ahistoric.

The lion's share of HOI4's audience is single player players who want a near historic WW2. In actual WW2, the Allies shared technologies between themselves and the whole was greater than the sum of those parts.

Make it so you can optionally disable tech trading for MP games, but it's an important part of the actual war and should definitely be in.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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So, who likes full or partial control over their puppets, as opposed to no control?
Who wants to be able to trace supply through allied/puppet territory?
Who wants tradable technologies?
Who wants to be able to assist and ally/puppet with research?
All four as well (well, for the third I'd prefer the sharing of blueprints), but if I had to chose one above all else it would be the availability of military control over the puppet (well, any ally AI in general - IMO no matter how much the AI is improved upon, it can never beat human ingenuity).
 

Bluestreak2k5

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"Tradeable technology breaks the game for multiplayer" Not a valid reason for getting rid of it. Multiplayer games demand balance between the two sides which is ahistoric.

The lion's share of HOI4's audience is single player players who want a near historic WW2. In actual WW2, the Allies shared technologies between themselves and the whole was greater than the sum of those parts.

Make it so you can optionally disable tech trading for MP games, but it's an important part of the actual war and should definitely be in.

Can you actually name a few technologies that were "given" to other allies? They gave units, they gave technical expertise like ASW from Great Britain to the US, however the actual "giving" of technology was not done at all or so little that I can actually only name 1 off the top of my head and that is the ENIGMA project, but the project was so massive it took 3 entire countries scientists and experts working on it, Poland, UK, and US.
 

Shadow Master

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"Tradeable technology breaks the game for multiplayer" Not a valid reason for getting rid of it. Multiplayer games demand balance between the two sides which is ahistoric. The lion's share of HOI4's audience is single player players who want a near historic WW2. In actual WW2, the Allies shared technologies between themselves and the whole was greater than the sum of those parts.

Make it so you can optionally disable tech trading for MP games, but it's an important part of the actual war and should definitely be in.
This.

yes pls to everything

All four as well (well, for the third I'd prefer the sharing of blueprints), but if I had to chose one above all else it would be the availability of military control over the puppet (well, any ally AI in general - IMO no matter how much the AI is improved upon, it can never beat human ingenuity).
My bad, I did intend blueprints, but worded my post badly. I'll edit that presently.

Now fellows, what about the idea for the aircraft ranges bug fix?
 

Porkman

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This.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission (Maybe that's what you were talking about with ASW)

Or the fact that lots of Mustangs had Merlin engines.

Or there is this one from just after the war and the development of the Mig 15.

They did inherit the technology of the very advanced axial compressor Junkers 012 and BMW 018 Jets that, in the class of the later Rolls-Royce Avon were some years ahead of the currently available British Rolls-Royce Nene engine. The Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer A. S. Yakovlev therefore suggested to Premier Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy the conservative but fully developed Nene engines from Rolls-Royce for the clandestine purpose copying them in a minimum of time. Somewhat logically, Stalin is said to have replied, "What fool will sell us his secrets?"[7]

However, he gave his consent to the proposal and Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others traveled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene. Sample engines were purchased and delivered with blueprints. Following evaluation and adaption to Russian conditions, the windfall technology was tooled for mass-production as the Klimov RD-45 without any compensation to be incorporated into the MiG-15.[7] Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207 million in license fees, under the expectation of which the original sale was made
.

Basically, you're crying because something that did exist, breaks multiplayer.
 

Vacceo

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Can you actually name a few technologies that were "given" to other allies? They gave units, they gave technical expertise like ASW from Great Britain to the US, however the actual "giving" of technology was not done at all or so little that I can actually only name 1 off the top of my head and that is the ENIGMA project, but the project was so massive it took 3 entire countries scientists and experts working on it, Poland, UK, and US.
I guess you can apply that to industrial methods and some materials. I don´t know from top of my head, but I guess nylon was shared, along with furnace methods for steel mills or production chains Ford style.

For other industrial tech such as agriculture, well, it´s not that hard to pass along better designs for tractors or cultivation methods. Same goes for medicine (use of antibiotics and so on).
 

FOARP

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So, who likes full or partial control over their puppets, as opposed to no control?

This is a no-brainer. I have no idea why anyone prefers having practically zero control (as in HOI3) rather than total control (HOI2), of the two, total control is the last unrealistic. Of course a more limited for of HOI2's control would be preferable - Luxembourg should not be able to control the US - but having practically no control over countries that historically had armed forces that were effecticely extensions of another power is just ridiculous.

Who wants to be able to trace supply through allied/puppet territory?

This should simply happen because it happened. Full-stop.

Who wants tradable technologies (blueprints)?

This too.

Who wants to be able to assist and ally/puppet with research?

This too. Just take away the micro-management involved.
 

Bullfrog

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Can you actually name a few technologies that were "given" to other allies? They gave units, they gave technical expertise like ASW from Great Britain to the US, however the actual "giving" of technology was not done at all or so little that I can actually only name 1 off the top of my head and that is the ENIGMA project, but the project was so massive it took 3 entire countries scientists and experts working on it, Poland, UK, and US.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission
It seems the cavity magnetron is a huge one, as well as some rocketry and nuclear knowledge. This all seems to be the super secret variety of techs, not so much equipment in itself.
 

Shadow Master

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All of my HoI gaming has been (and will no doubt remain) strictly single player. That said:

I came to the HoI franchise with HoI 2 DD (IIRC), and later moved to Armageddon after it had been out for a bit. I have been playing HoI2DDARM ever since, although that most evil of forces (real life) has often intervened and forced upon me the horrible curse of "no time to play the game". That being said, I was shocked when HoI 3 came out and my villanious style of playing the game was brought to an abrupt, screeching halt. Some folks (maybe even 3-4) might just remember me from back in those days as the crazy guy that always played as Germany, and did all sorts of 'pre-wars', in order to creat an alliance of puppeted nations, so that I could have a chance against the allies.

Of course, I called this alliance a "Tech-Team alliance", as gaining additional tech team slots was the main reason for fighting all the pre-wars, well that and the pure fun of beginning my world conquest right from the start, in 1936. At first I didn't know that I could save game, then load as the puppet, set their production and R&D, and then save and reload and continue as Germany, with no time elasped. So what I would do is, I would simply click on my allies and wait for them to complete their R&D and start a new project. Oftentimes, they would start a project that I had already begun work on, and I would try to guess who was going to finish their research first (not that I was always right on that guess, mind you), and if the puppets was going to be even close, I would cancel my project and select something that none of my puppets were working on. Then I would pay any cost (in BP or reasources) to get the BP from my puppets, research them myself, then trade the BP to the rest of my alliance, so that we all got the chance to develop as many technologies as possible. Once of twice, I tried my hand at AAR's where I also diligently pressed home my nefarious espionage attempts, meaning that I would set the game speed to 'normal' (read as 'slow as molaseses in januarary"), in order to infiltrate as many of my spys into enemy territory as quickly as I could, and then constantly was attempting to steal as many BP from them as I could.

I say all this so that folks can better understand exactly what HoI 3 did to my playing style. At first I didn't get HoI 3 because I didn't have the time to even play it. Then I held back upon hearing about the problems the initial release had. Still later when I realized that the single most annoying bug (aircraft being out of range) had not been fixed, and that the whole TT/Puppet empire building, gaming style was dead as a doornail do to fundamental changes in the games functionality, that is what made me realise that HoI 3 was not for me.:sad::mad:

All that being so, if I ever do buy HoI 3 it will not be with the intention to play hoi 3, but rather to get the forum icon, and support PDOX in the hopes that HoI 4 will not exclude me as HoI 3 did.

Now back to the thread...

It seems then that many folks want to be able to tell their puppets what to do, if not in a total scense, then at least partly. It seems that folks are not happy with troops being cut off from supply by allied/puppet territory. Any thoughts on how to give puppet control to the master, without alienating the other folks that don't want this? How about the supply problems?

Any thoughts?
 

Shadow Master

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I could write a thread about the user interface I would reccommend for being able to control, to whatever level one desires, their puppets. This would be basically a picture thread, beginning at the opening screen, and going all the way to the outbreak of the war. Of course, it would have to be done in HoI2, as that's the only HoI game I currently have.

For the allied/puppet territory supply problems, I have some ideas there as well, but a picture thread would be less usefull there as I would have to actually make up several other portions of the game to display the ideas.

Well, I have to start getting myself ready for work and such, so until later...
 

vota dc

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Tech teams were taken out to make the game more sandbox.

I personally would rather see a system where Money + Tech team + Practical is used. I´m strongly against BS like conquering leadership, as Germany (to use the most obvious example) NEVER used french scientists, spies or diplomats... But if you remove that you would have the "sandbox" people complaining that they can´t conquer the world as Bulgaria, and screw you if you think that should be impossible anyway.

Even more scary conquering landlocked countries and use their leadership to research ships!
 

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Still later when I realized that the single most annoying bug (aircraft being out of range) had not been fixed, and that the whole TT/Puppet empire building, gaming style was dead as a doornail do to fundamental changes in the games functionality, that is what made me realise that HoI 3 was not for me.:sad::mad:

So:

1) You think aircraft not being able to attack provinces which are out of range when an attack is being launched from them into an in-range province is a "bug" despite this actually being fairly logical (range is calculated to the centre of a province, not the whole of it).

2) You don't seem to have noticed that this situation almost never happens anyway in HOI3 due to the small province sizes.

3) Because of this fairly logical situation that very rarely arises in-game, you refuse to buy HOI3? Are you for real?

Can you actually name a few technologies that were "given" to other allies?

The Nakkajima Kikka was basically a copy of the Me-262 made using photos and cut-away drawings, the Polish Błyskawica submachine gun was basically a copy of the STEN, the BREN was bascially a Czech design, Bofors AA guns were built under license from the Bofors company in Sweden throughout the Allied countries, very obvious the Commonwealth countries shared ALL their technologies, etc etc etc.

Like Porkman said, you're complaining about something that did actually happen.
 
Last edited:

Mr_B0narpte

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This is a no-brainer. I have no idea why anyone prefers having practically zero control (as in HOI3) rather than total control (HOI2)
Exactly! Even though it's unrealistic to have it, people can choose whether they want to use it or not anyway, it's not being forced on anyone.

Of course a more limited for of HOI2's control would be preferable - Luxembourg should not be able to control the US
You can't do that anyway - you have to have more IC then the country you're trying to control in order for the AI to accept. So even as the UK you cannot military control AI USA.
 

FOARP

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Personally I never had a problem with allies militarizes in HOI3 once the AI ordering system bugs had been worked out . . . example Hungary would not fight USSR nor would greece or Yugoslavia even if you gave them orders to do so. They would never send troops to help the front because they didn't have a border with USSR.

Note the total contradiction. What is needed is direct control, at the very least over puppet militaries and minor countries fighting on the same front.
 

jat85

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I never liked the "assume military control" feature in HoI2 - always felt kind of a cheatbutton to me because honestly where did any country have total control over all forces of another? I think a realistically working "request expeditionary force" mechanic is way better in many respects. Plus of course being able to ask allies to take part in battle plans.
 

FOARP

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where did any country have total control over all forces of another?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo#Military
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Jingwei_Government#National_defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia#German_influence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic#RSI_military_formations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...World_War_II#The_Philippine_Commonwealth_Army

I think a realistically working "request expeditionary force" mechanic is way better in many respects.

I think most of us would prefer this kind of system, at least for non-puppets.

being able to ask allies to take part in battle plans.

We'll see how this works. If it's like AI control in HOI3, then no, it's not such a great option.

I never liked the "assume military control" feature in HoI2

It's not great, but it is much better than countires who you dominate in every other respect not being part of you command structure. I'd much rather have the HOI2 systemthan the HOI3 system, but would even more prefer a better system that gives the level of control you get in HOI2 but only for those countries you dominate, and which gives you more limited control over other countries.
 
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Mjuice

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In reality, different armies fighting together on the same front would of course form unified HQs with some representation from everyone that would then control forces of different nations as a single force. I don't think this can really be done in the game very smoothly. One nation assuming control over everything is far from perfect but it is infinitely better than having everybody do whatever they want without any coordination.
 

FOARP

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In reality, different armies fighting together on the same front would of course form unified HQs with some representation from everyone that would then control forces of different nations as a single force. I don't think this can really be done in the game very smoothly. One nation assuming control over everything is far from perfect but it is infinitely better than having everybody do whatever they want without any coordination.

Agreed. And no, setting objectives that the computer often ignores and anyway only tries to attack/defend in the lamest fashion is NOT effective control.