HOI 2 Aussie group..Tuesday game(7pm-11pm)

[unmerged(13088)]

Major your hole argument is wrong and childish. l for one say NO to your proposed rules.

 

[Majorball]

hahaha it speaks....I dont know about wrong and childish but it is open for anyone who has an oponion. I want an unbiased view Tojo.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Well an attack on USSR by Japan this game is OK. This has almost never happened in our games so its quite interesting.

I am 100% sure Omni will handle the crisis.


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[mike8472]

I also agree with nolan.

I have never seen this happen before so how can we judge or make rules for it. If Japan fails then im sure not many Japenese players will try it again.

We cannot go around making rules for every possible situation that may happen. Just becuase it didnt happen IRL in WWII dosnt mean it shouldnt happen now as both were valid options for the axis in WWII.

As for game balance, well i think the game is well balanced. Better to have the USSR under the pump as it should be in the first few years, then see a superstrong USSR, with over 300+ divisions all of the highest quality on the one front against Germany, the game would be over quickly and Noland and Munster would miss out on all there fun. With so many forces and all fully teched Germany would never defeat them by them selves in the 36 scenario. 38 scenario is different as the USSR is alot weaker and alot more realistic for both side in terms of forces.

So once again a 36 scenario will not yeild historical results and different strateiges have to be employed to overcome game balance issues from the axis perspective, EG Super strong Russia. Hence our strategy, if it fails we will probably lose the war but have alot of fun in the process and will still take years to do. Once the USSR is dealt with the game is not over, still have the UK and USA to finish off and i for one would love to play a game that long. If we succeed in our plan then the Axis will probably win.

So dont go proposing rules, espicaly when your not the main party fighting and cannot witness what is really happening in the battles and along the front. Lets see how the game pans out.

 

[Gezeder]

Just on the Tuesday game....A bit disappointed the way its going. Not happy with everyone ganging up on Russia. Italy taking over Turkey and the Russians having to sit back otherwise the Germans declare war on them. Then the Japs attacking from the East. If you ask me I think it is totally unfair on Omni as a new player to be faced with an atatck on 3 fronts in 1941.

Perhaps this argument has merit; though I was unaware we were expected to go easy on Omni. Certainly I don't see why a 'Go easy on the rookie' rule should become enshrined in our Aussie rules games as a 'Go easy on the Soviets' rule....

I like to see next time if that is the case all the house rules on Japan and USA declaring war thrown out the window.

I have been advocating this kind of thinking since the first game I played with the Aussie group.

If the japs are going to use annexed China as staging bases for attacks on India and lengthing the Eastern front by 20 provinces the USA should be allowed to declare war or the Japs must be restricted to at least 1943 before the can declare war on the Russians. Do you think the Russians would sit back while the japs annex all the Chinas and have mulitple provinces to atatck Russia from.

Totally agree. Hence why I disagree with enforcing artificial DoW dates which have no relevance to the strategic situation we seem to so often find ourselves in. In only our few first games no less!

I think it totally unfair what you guys are doing and I dont care if you planned it from 1936.

Totally disagree. Boo hoo, the Axis are trying to win. If you REALLY REALLY don't want Japan DoWing Russia it should not be allowed in the rules. But for this game, it was..... end of story.
Proposing house rules is fine, but implying that we have somehow done something immoral is insulting.

I can't see how you can expect Japan to pull its punches in the eastern theatre any more than we could expect the Soviets not to wait until the last possible minute then crank out shitloads of '41 infantry when they know they're safe until June '41....

I know the UK is too hard for you guys because they have massacred the german navy and now you ganging up on the easy guy.

Yes, you have played well. Yes, you have made the Axis situation in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean untenable due to good play. Yes, we cannot win there anymore.

Yes, we have given up in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, and are trying to win on land in Russia. Where we (Hopefully) have a chance. Are you saying it is unsportsmanlike to give up where we are getting our asses kicked and concentrate on potential win scenarios? Perhaps you would only be happy if Germany and Italy continued funneling valuable IC's into useless Carriers and BB's in a futile attempt to take back the Atlantic??

I cant see how any game can work out without some house rules in relation to DOW's.

I've said it before but I'll say it again. In my opinion, there are really only 2 options.

1. To ONLY have HISTORICAL DOW's (And historical Allies)..... this may keep the war.... basically historical.

Anything less is half assed and leads to things like the Allies complaining when the Axis invade Turkey, or Allie with Spain, or numerous other Grand Strategy Altering major moves which completely change the situation, leaving historical DoW dates looking pretty silly when the Soviets can't intervene in Turkey, or the UK appearing impotent as the Italians rampage through the Balkans in '37, etc etc.

Or, option 2.

2. To have very FEW rules regarding DOW's, accepting that our game will NOT be completely historical, and that attempting to constrict a completely ahistorical game to arbitrary DoW dates is futile and unduly frustrating to those who feel unfairly restricted in situations they feel their nation Would have gone to war against.

(The biggest problem with Option 2 is the USSR situation, as it is unfairly powerful if considered to be part of the allies. I think that for option 2 to truly work, we really need to play the game the way it was INTENDED to be played, that is, 3 factions, 1 winner. Or, perhaps a few simple rules that ensure the Axis nations are always the aggressors, preventing a Soviet rampage with the capitalist nations cheering them on.)

If we cant come up with something I am not going to waste 3 months playing a game for nothing.

Your choice mate. Though I'm surprised you consider a heated defense in the Middle East, frantic battles for naval supremacy in the Atlantic, exciting Air Wars, and desperate Island fighting to be nothing.....

The river defense is a myth and from what I have seen in Russia the germans
have had no trouble crossing any rivers.

I agree. I never had an issue with the river defence. Tactical decisions should be left to the player. Maybe in HOI1 there were game breaking Forts, but in HOI2 the only things broken are useless Land Bombing, useless Convoy Interdictions, and a problematic at times trade system.

So the moral of this story is I like to see a House rule with the following restrictions placed on Japan:

2 rules open for discussion( i will transfer to rules thread later).....

either /or

1/ Japan may not DOW Russians before 1943

2/Japan may not launch attacks from annexed or occupied Chinese territories on India or the Russians. The may however launch atatcks from Manchuria.

My main argument is that Japan is given a free reign in China to gain the resources and IC to take on the USA. They are using all this territorial advantage to take on the Russians and the Russians are not permitted to interfere in the China war to prevent this.

I always found it quite funny that Japan in our groups is assumed to get China for free. If Japan is so underpowered perhaps we should just give them more IC and take away their free hand in China??

Regarding India, my history is a little sketchy but I believe the Japanese did try to march through Burma to India, so a land invasion there is not so crazy to my mind...

Regarding this rule, I point to what I said above..... adding rule after rule after rule as players discover and think up new strategies, in an attempt to limit said strategies, is, in my opinion, counter productive to enjoyment of the game.

I admit, I speak in this case of my enjoyment; we are all entitled to our own opinion of course.

The game will be over shortly come summer 1942 so we should seriously look at our rules for the next game.

I think it's quite sad these games seem to be always over so quickly.

I do wish to ask, however...... how many games has the Aussie group completed to 1945? Because you've always had lots of rules right?

So if all we need to make a 'Fair' and 'Long' game is rules, where are all the completed 1945 games?

Seems to me adding rules until the game is perfect... it’s chasing rainbows.

Gezeder

 

[Majorball]

I can propose what ever I want Adolf...wether it gets accepted or not is another matter. But I will stick to my right to have a democratic oponion you fascist pig!! Onwards to democracy!!!

All valid points made..even though completely Axis biased Well l will go with what ever the group decides.

BTW Gezeder I am not talking about the route thru Burma...I am talking about the route from Sinkiang next to Afganistan. Lets see how this game turns out...while you guys are ganging up on Russia we can do the same to Japan.

And about games reaching 1945...well in HOI 1 it was so buggy it was near impossible. In this HOI 2 we have 2 games progessing well 1942. The biggest problem we have had in the past and contributed to shorter games has been players inexperience..not so much house rules. I am sure everyone will benefeit from the experience and future games should last quite awhile and be enjoyable.

 

[Gezeder]

I hope you don't think my opinion unfairly Axis biased?

I've started what, 5-6 games with the Aussie group so far? Only once as Axis?

And I'd really rather play a variety of roles, variety is the spice of life.

Truth is my favorite nation is Soviet - the main nation I fear can upset game balance and the only nation (In my opinion) which truly needs any house rules regarding Dows, primarily due to this groups' desire to see them basically as one of the Allies.... they need to (be forced to) play as non-belligerants to justify this perception.

Gezeder

 

[unmerged(16810)]

We have never reached the point yet in our games where the Axis becomes the third power.

Im sure it will be a significant watershed in our play when that situation does arise

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[unmerged(34422)]

The reason I complained a bit about being attacked on 3 fronts is because, like most humans, I hate having the inevitable postponed . There will be no Axis victory.

From a gameplay perspective, the game would have been over in 1941 were it not for the 3 pronged attack against Russia. This was in part due to German strategic error and a, still, over-powered Russia.

 

[mike8472]

You can have an opinion major, all im saying is that you have based that decision on incomplete edvidence. You are not the USSR in this game, you have no view of any of the fronts or battles being fought, so how can you possible know the full situation.

The situation is the USSR is holding its own on a combined 3 front war, there doing well. How long that lasts i dont know one thing is for sure, bar a serious mistake by myself or omni in getting large forces encircled this war will not be over in 1942, at earliest i would think would be 1943 but probably even longer. The sheer size of the USSR and the huge forces omni has makes it very difficult.

This game will last a few years yet. I look forward to smashing the allied invasion of France, Spain or Italy (having any nightmares about invading france nolan im waiting for you) Fighting the airwar over Germany against the allies which is only just starting. The battle of the atlantic is far from over, Germany will soon have lots of spare IC to spend, all depends on what i want lvl V subs, or to build a crap load of lvl 5 Carriers, who knows ill wait and see what happens.

I think major is just jealous has he is not the centre of attention and omni is, hehehe.

Also calling your allie a noob is not nice, omni is far from a noob and has alot of experience playing hoi and hoi 2. He has so far fought well, and is improving all the time.

As for ganging up on OMNI i think Gez said it best. Omni will learn so much from this game win, lose or draw if he wins you will have to eat your words. Our strategy should not be limited to how good we think or guess a players ability might be. That is simply stupid, no one will learn if you do the go-easy approach. Wining battles is great but losing them you learn far more.

 

[Majorball]

OK Adolf...I will leave my talk to the battlefeild...its obvious you are suffering from Adolf's well known illusions about grand victory. I dont think anyone else can play Germany And your bitch side kick Munster makes the perfect Tojo hehehe

 

[Gezeder]

Losing battles sure is great for learning -

I'm only holding my own in Baku against Omni now because of some tricks Major taught me the hard way in the Middle East....

For the record I think Omni's handling a 3 front damn hard situation with more class than I would have, just ask my allies, I'm a whiner when I lose battles

Gezeder

 

[mike8472]

Yes you do have a tendancy to panick Gez, it takes Adolf's cool steady hand to make you see the advantages or strengths of our situation. YOu have done well Gez, i espicaly like how you belted the UK out of the middle east, first time in hoi 2 ive seen italy beat the UK. Well done.

 

[Majorball]

pffft....Last time I saw Uk troops had invaded Italy....You can have the middle east there is nothing there axcept Arabs and desert

 

[unmerged(17563)]

This game is going fine and as I said during the last session, I can't see it being close to over before 45 or 46...even if the USSR falls in 43 or 44 it will still take the USA a long time to build up enough to take out Fortress Europe

Some of us are newbies and are not playing our countries to their 100% maximum, give us a few games all the way through then you'll see a more balanced even game I for one have learn so much, if I play spain again they will be alot more powerful then they are this time round I gurantee it

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Good post Gez.

In regards to not playing games through to completion, there are more reasons than just house rules for that. Often, once a game is decided in favour of the non-Axis players, the game will end, simply because people feel the game is effectively over as a context. Personally, I think battling it out to the bitter end is a great way to learn more about the game, and it's possibilities.

Also, in regards to 'ganging' up on one player, I recall a game (HOI1) when Omni as Japan, was ganged up on by the Allies/SU, crushed, and yet there were no issues with that.

As I said in the rules discussion post, wait to suggest ideas until the end of a game - with hindsight, the crisis that seem unfair/unbalanced, etc during a game (eg, river defense), often pan out to be nothing at all. Major, why not land an expeditionary force in Archangel/Murmansk, or Norway/Sweden (assuming they are Axis) if you're worried about the 3 pronged Soviet attack? For each action, there are many reactions.

 

[mike8472]

I agree Joel, we need to play these games through to completion no matter what. Hoi 1 was far to buggy for most people to play it through, to frustrating. Hoi 2 has very few bugs, or easily avoided, mainly game balancing and tweaking.

The only time the river defence is an issue is when a player such as major who is an expert at the USSR, as you where too joel in hoi 1. When the USSR can concentrate there whole army behind a river, with forces larger then Germanies and the same tech, then it becomes an issue.

Like you said action and reaction, hence Axis strategy at present to defeat the USSR from 3 fronts, as we knew it would be to strong for any one of us to defeat by ourselves. The Navy i built was to keep allies busy while defeating the USSR, only thing is i over exteneded it and paid the price by losing most of the CV's. Diegeo garcia, and Island to far, hehe. Since that error i have stuck simply to our main axis strategy, defeat the USSR.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

Meanwhile the gallant Spanish queitly commence a large build up of infantry for the inevitable Allied invasion...

18 new 41 Infantry have been ordered in 2 serial builds of 9 Yeah it will put my TC way over the limit but no way can I stop an invasion with what I have now, my position on the German's southern flank will make me the first target instead of Italy for US invasion...

 

[mike8472]

Never fear BB, Germany will save the day, i already have nearly 40+ divisions including armour in France spread out and more arriving all the time. I expect and allied attempt to invade some where to try and draw German forces from the russian front, this wont happen as the only forces newly built and built for the sole purpose to fighting in the west will go there.

The Allies face a few choices to help Russia out.

1. Attack the Axis in Europe via invasion of France, Spain, mainland Italy or the Middle east. In all cases Germany can get lots of forces there quickly. So for the allies to be succesful would require huge forces from the US, which they dont have yet. If they dont land in force then i can destroy there forces.

2. Send forces to Russia to actualy fight in on the russian fronts. This would not be a good option as it would overload Russian TC even more, plus it allows me to focus even more force on the russian front since i would have little to fear in France.

3. Focus there attention on Japan. I think this will be there main option for the time being until the US builds up enough ground forces to invade France or Europe. The US will need time to build up and it also depends if they suffer any great loses in the process. If they focus on Japan that will help take the preasure of russias third front. The only real area the US can help out with is forces for india and burma and advance up there. Although it bad terrain so hard to advance and takes ages. To advance through the pacific is risky so early becuase if they lose alot of CV's Japan will rule the pacific for the next few years.

So Germany will have the nearly the equal biggest army in the world. I will have built by end of April 1942 250 infantry divs, all 41. Although a number are in italies hand for secret joint operations come summer time. After this we have Japan and Italt which have the next largest armies as well. So in order to defeat the Axis the US must build up large forces and then focus its full might in which ever area it goes. The Allies the UK and CW can only do probing attacks which Major has already done in France. They do not have the forces to invade succesfully they can try, but they will lose and lose badly this early. If they lose large forces so early then the war is practicly won for the Axis.

So never fear BB, the Allies have alot of problems them selves, all which are risky now.

 

[unmerged(34422)]

The German army has been worn out. Almost every single armoured/motorised division encountered thus far is vastly understrength, below 80 percent atleast. Some motorised divisions have been seen to be almost destroyed. Germany's past 2 major offensives have been halted in there tracks, you simply don't have it in you anymore. Come Summer, the German front will collapse, that is a surety.

Japan is banging its head against a brick wall. It's vastly superior in numbers forces have been pushed back, and are no resigned to taking 0 IC and 0 resources provinces in the far east. This is quite a waste of time, and they will suffer when the US goes on the offensive.

Italy has been pushed back in the Caucasus, and is only able to hold ground due to its high quality mountain divisions and the ability to attack from different areas. It's offensive capability has been nullified (thanks to superior Russian numbers).