[HoD] USA converting to communism keeps capitalist tech school

[LarryLeica]

After allowing communists rebels to take over in my current USA game, the Tycoon Capitalism tech school is not replaced. Surely, to get and retain this tech school one should have a capiltalist type of government? I know the original requirements are:

Have at least 5% Laissez-Faire and Free Trade
Have at least 45 Prestige.
Have at least 100 Industrial Score.
Ruling Party: Liberal or Anarcho-Liberal

It seems a bit silly to keep this school under a communist government especially when the requirements to get the school are absolutely pro-capitalist.

 

[Arentak]

It took time for the Bolsheviks to wipe out the old intelligensia of the Soviet Union. It makes sense it would take the CPoA time to wipe out the pro-business university professors strolling the halls of Harvard and the like.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The fall of a government does not necessarily mean that all the intellectuals suddenly turn communist.
And apart from the name the benefits of this tech school couls still apply for a communist goverment (more efficent industry and good distribution).

 

[Kimberly]

I think it might be nice to have an event that removes the tech school in communist dictatorships. It would rob the communists of the ability to use the tech school yes, but it would add a lot in terms of flavor. Realistically speaking, communists shouldn't be making great economic leaps, anyway.

 

[unmerged(275616)]

I think it might be nice to have an event that removes the tech school in communist dictatorships. It would rob the communists of the ability to use the tech school yes, but it would add a lot in terms of flavor. Realistically speaking, communists shouldn't be making great economic leaps, anyway.

I guess you could have a decision which kills 90% of upper class pops, 50% of middle class pops, drops literacy by 20%, and destroys all of your factories.

 

[FerdinandVeblen]

Just pretend the name changed to "Factory Manager schools and Kombinate Communism" :laugh:

 

[DominusNovus]

Well, I suppose a communist government could still be supportive of research into those fields, regardless of what the name of the school is.

 

[LarryLeica]

The fall of a government does not necessarily mean that all the intellectuals suddenly turn communist.
And apart from the name the benefits of this tech school couls still apply for a communist goverment (more efficent industry and good distribution).

True, however, this is a centralised one-party state. The guys at the top decide what gets researched, not the intellectuals. An intellectual may decide to research something on his own, but it isn't going to be much use if it's against the party-line. The party-line for communists based on the setup of the Communist Party in-game is Planned Economy and Protectionism, the polar opposite of the requirements for this school...

It is a useful school for ANY nation as it is rather overpowered.

 

[Jorlaan]

You must understand that communism is another word for capitalism. The guys on top are concerned with making money, staying in power, and not sharing that money or power, sounds like capitalism to me.

 

[Kimberly]

You must understand that communism is another word for capitalism. The guys on top are concerned with making money, staying in power, and not sharing that money or power, sounds like capitalism to me.

I don't think you really understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter, and of a resident of Canada I'd at least expect the latter.

You could argue the power structures are largely the same. There is some truth to that. But state ownership of factories and a command economy (socialism, the "transitional form" towards communism) is an entirely different economic system from a market-based, capitalist economy. The idea of advances in business and tycoon capitalism, or much in the way of commerce at all, is inconceivable under a socialist government. Now, many modern parties do call themselves socialist, but they always administer market economies.

 

[DominusNovus]

You must understand that communism is another word for capitalism. The guys on top are concerned with making money, staying in power, and not sharing that money or power, sounds like capitalism to me.

Oh good, someone wants to start a political debate.

 

[colinljx]

You must understand that communism is another word for capitalism.

This, communism itself was supposed to be the ultimate capitalism utopia where everyone works productively and happily without the middlemen capitalists stealing the profits. Modern day nations under "communist" regime were nothing more than illegitimate pretenders who use "equality" to cover up the corruption and oppression. The only ones that came close to Carl Max's real communism/socialism ideals are the Scandinavians and German.

 

[Kimberly]

This, communism itself was supposed to be the ultimate capitalism utopia where everyone works productively and happily without the middlemen capitalists stealing the profits. Modern day nations under "communist" regime were nothing more than illegitimate pretenders who use "equality" to cover up the corruption and oppression. The only ones that came close to Carl Max's real communism/socialism ideals are the Scandinavians and German.

A capitalist utopia without capitalists? You understand how that's impossible, right? Communist writers mostly believed in the labor theory of value, believing that if workers banded together and took control, cutting capitalists out of the picture, they could produce more efficiently. Leaving flaws in the labor theory of value aside for a moment, it should be clear that communists can't promote capitalism, because they think capitalism is parasitic and has no place in the economy. Their tech schools should reflect this.

 

[colinljx]

A capitalist utopia without capitalists? You understand how that's impossible, right? Communist writers mostly believed in the labor theory of value, believing that if workers banded together and took control, cutting capitalists out of the picture, they could produce more efficiently. Leaving flaws in the labor theory of value aside for a moment, it should be clear that communists can't promote capitalism, because they think capitalism is parasitic and has no place in the economy. Their tech schools should reflect this.

A free market without capitalists taking all the profit is totally doable, what those early socialists/communists failed to realize is that greed as part of human nature prevent such society of equality, which is why it's a utopia, a impossible paradise. Greed is like corruption, you can only seek to minimize it, not eliminate it.

 

[Jorlaan]

I don't think you really understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter, and of a resident of Canada I'd at least expect the latter.

You seriously believe that Canada is communist? Boy stop listening to your politicians.

 

[EUnderhill]

I don't think you really understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter, and of a resident of Canada I'd at least expect the latter.

You seriously believe that Canada is communist? Boy stop listening to your republican politicians.

But...but...all that red in the flag...

 

[IlyaZ]

In general it's more complicated and there are many misconceptions here. About the economic leaps, you can take a look at the USSR, which holds the growth record etc. The country started off in the mud just to end up in space a couple of decades later, while simultaneously fighting off invasions launched by the most industrialized countries of the world. The economic policy was a huge success. The policies of the USSR were different from time to time. In the end you had more opportunists and careerists than socialists at the top. These had an interest in abolishing socialism and in appointing themselves as the new capitalists in the free market Russia. The people of most USSR republics never wanted the union to be abolished, and most people still regard their version of socialism positively. Especially now with the hands on experience with capitalism.

Marx doesn't describe any kind of utopia. The marxist branch of socialism (what is now called socialism) is scientific and opposed to utopian socialism (what is now called anarchism).

Greed is not really a problem. In this society greed and other behaviors are given incentives, they are required for survival. Agents have to act in a certain way to maximize their chances, they have no other choice but to follow the rules of the market. Other types of societies have other incentives and promote different behaviors. None of them are human nature, just as much as slavery or serfdom isn't. They are just ways to organize production as imposed by the level of technology.

Socialism is in fact in the interest of most people. But not all. People aren't socialists because of some altruistic visions, they are socialists because they benefit from a democratic society rather than a capitalist one. And they band up together, in solidarity, just like capitalists band up, to reinforce their interests.

Running a capitalist, free market, society may be completely in line with communist politics, at certain stages of history. Capitalism just like any other system before it has been progressive. For example it would be perfectly valid to support a capitalist system or a liberal revolution as the one in France after 1789. But of course, that was before socialism even existed.

 

[ssuperflash1]

It was a joke..

 

[Scythlyr]

This has gone very off-topic. The point is a communist country, if not for historicity at the very least for flavor, shouldn't get a tech school named Tycoon Capitalism.
Should it be renamed in some way or made unavailable to them, that's the real question here.

 

[Orko80]

I don't see any reason why the Academic school should be abolished in the moment the Goverment changes.

Not every communist dictatorship is the same. And may not want to get rid of capitalist views in an academica. It should be a choice for the player to switch. If they want to roleplay.

Fo the same reason why we don't get an event where 60% of the generals admirals get shot and 50% of all capitalists get convertet to farmer and craftmen and the rest get shot.
Not every revolution is the same. And Goverment and Politics aren't as tied together.
The player always has the choice to abandon the tycoon school and eat the negative if they want to play it that way.