[HOD]AI alliance blocs

[Khorney]

Just to start out, have to say I'm loving every minute of HOD! AI is much, much smarter, and behave in believable ways, countering any poorly thought out moves by the player at any opportunity . Diplomatic resolutions through crises are great for pushing GP's into action rather than resting on their laurels!

I've come to a problem in my current japan game however - as was the case in real life - I find myself hemmed in by Europeans on all sides. Russia annexed Korea quickly after I took Pusan while I was westernising. It's military score is colossal. Spain, after sustaining itself as a GP well into the late 1800's, is now sphere'd by France and in alliances with 2 other GP's. Britian encroaches on my sphere, but not too extensively. My only viable option at the moment is to take chunks of china every time the truce ends.

My problem is I have no allies whatsoever - even my spherelings reject alliances after I build up relations with them. I was refused any alliances earlier in the game, so I neglected that aspect until we reach this point where I'm essentially just waiting for the game to end while collecting money from my irate chinamen. What steps should I take to form my own alliances and break up these shackles? there's about 30 years left in the game to give some perspective, I would like to..ahem 'liberate' Korea if possible as my last goal in the game, but there's no way I could take Russia by myself, I would need France or German on side. Failing that, the Philippines has tempted me for too long after I embarrassed the Spanish years before for trying to intervene in my Korean war.

suggestions?

 

[deadmeat1471]

I have never seen before a better need for this picture ever.

On a serious note though, I really don't know what to offer, I frequently get in the same position. I think allies tend to come in time when you kinda see how they are shaping out.
Example is my current colombia game, I really wanted to ally Venezuela and Ecuador, ecuador was happy to but venezuela never did, but in time USCA and Mexico offered and so we kinda have out little alliance bloc (After Bolivia got curbstomped by Brazil).

I'd say just try and keep your eyes open for someone to ally even if it's not your ideal ally and when a war ends, see if the alliances changed or broke.

 

[Khorney]

OK I lol'd. Such is the fate of us oppressed Asians under barbarian imperialist boots

 

[AlbTroll]

I got into this sort of issue in a HoD 3.02 (Beta) game I am playing with Japan. Basically I needed to get my Core Province from Russia (Sakhalin). My problem was that Russia had an Iron Clad Alliance with the UK, France, and a #10 Spain. I have an alliance with France but they would not back be against the UK and Russia, in fact they would join against me....

I owned the highest single military score but couldn't take on those three powerhouses alone... Basically I waited until one of the central Asian countries that Russia always annexes or Spheres (Khiva I think) went bankrupt and I got a Repay Debts CB. Since they where in Russia's Sphere that drew Russia into war with me then I added my Acquire Core war goal.

Use the GP's Sphere-lings against them. If you pay attention you can start to generate a CB against a GP the day you get the Repay Debts / Cut Down to Size / Humiliate CB against the minor and finish before the CB runs out. Just start the war with the original CB against the minor to draw in the GP.

 

[jp78]

Why can't you take Russia yourself ? It shouldn't be that hard with a westernized Japan... Sometimes military score is deceptive. Russia is normally way behind the rest of the great powers in terms of military techs. Most of their army is usually very far away in Europe, they have plenty of small stacks you could easily defeat and invading its eastern part (manchuria, kamchatka and all that) will provide you good defensive terrain. Plus ticking warscore considering the time they'd need to bring their armies to fight you. Seems feasible to me if Russia is like I said (few military techs and troops in Europe).

 

[jecjackal]

When are 2nd GP alliances allowed?

In my Japan game, The same thing happened to me. Except I annexed Korea which Russia then attacked

 

[Khorney]

Why can't you take Russia yourself ? It shouldn't be that hard with a westernized Japan... Sometimes military score is deceptive. Russia is normally way behind the rest of the great powers in terms of military techs. Most of their army is usually very far away in Europe, they have plenty of small stacks you could easily defeat and invading its eastern part (manchuria, kamchatka and all that) will provide you good defensive terrain. Plus ticking warscore considering the time they'd need to bring their armies to fight you. Seems feasible to me if Russia is like I said (few military techs and troops in Europe).

Its a multiplayer game so I've got to be slightly more risk averse - If the war goes wrong and they end up demanding territory from me, then that's me done til the end of the game. We already restarted once after I grossly underestimated the new HOD AI and spain just intervened and annexed me when I tried to take over Korea. As we speak the USA player is being dismantled by a mexico/UK alliance after his war turned sour when a massive communist revolt blindsided him. I might try a dry run in singleplayer, but in a test I did about 50 years before my armies just got immediately curb stomped by 100 stacks that flew in out of nowhere.

 

[blaidd]

When are 2nd GP alliances allowed?

In HoD it happens around (at?) the same time Great Wars are discovered. That's when you see the real power blocks start forming. Prior to that each AI only wants to ally one other GP at a time. The exception is when a new GP rises up and was already allied with someone. After Great Wars they seem to pretty quickly align into two main groups, although sometimes there are interconnecting webs of alliances.

Usually I can't get the Alliances I want until after Great Wars are discovered, so I take advantage of the early period to pick on the odd man out. If you're a GP and you have no allies there should almost always be one other GP with no allies. You can ally with them. Or you can kill them and take their stuff. Nobody will stop you cause they can't get allies either.

Pre-HoD I don't think this was the case. At least I think I remember seeing more complicated GP alliances back then before Great Wars.

 

[Miaow]

In HoD, it seems that Great Powers outside of Europe just can't get allies. I'm playing a game as Canada, the only GP that will ally with me (even after Great Wars and coalitions become possible) is the USA. AI Japan is a friendless GP as well, they have the "Wants a Great Power Ally" modifier but still won't ally with me, although we're not competing for a sphereling, I didn't grab one of their cores either (the absolute refusal of the AI in HoD to ally with someone who owns a core of theirs is a problem: it should factor into their "political considerations", but if they aren't planning on attacking you for the core then why won't they ally?), they just won't ally with anyone but their spherelings because they're the only GP in Asia.

Overall, the diplomacy in HoD seems much more 'arcade'

 

[Wizzington]

In HoD, it seems that Great Powers outside of Europe just can't get allies. I'm playing a game as Canada, the only GP that will ally with me (even after Great Wars and coalitions become possible) is the USA. AI Japan is a friendless GP as well, they have the "Wants a Great Power Ally" modifier but still won't ally with me, although we're not competing for a sphereling, I didn't grab one of their cores either (the absolute refusal of the AI in HoD to ally with someone who owns a core of theirs is a problem: it should factor into their "political considerations", but if they aren't planning on attacking you for the core then why won't they ally?), they just won't ally with anyone but their spherelings because they're the only GP in Asia.

Overall, the diplomacy in HoD seems much more 'arcade'

Could you post a screenshot of their reasoning in saying no? I'm guessing Japan is falling into the same category of diploreasons that are meant to keep the US from getting involved in European affairs.

 

[rmax92]

Could you post a screenshot of their reasoning in saying no? I'm guessing Japan is falling into the same category of diploreasons that are meant to keep the US from getting involved in European affairs.

I dont think this has ever been mentioned before...could you elaborate on these alliance modifiers?

Also, could I suggest making an event or something similar which would make you choose between your GP allies if you had more than two before great wars unlock?
And...to make the pre-great war era more dynamic maybe put a life span (5 years?) on alliances? Quite often youll have France and Russia allied for the whole of the first half of the game and they win every war.

 

[Miaow]

Could you post a screenshot of their reasoning in saying no? I'm guessing Japan is falling into the same category of diploreasons that are meant to keep the US from getting involved in European affairs.

Sure,

I'm not sure what's causing the "political considerations"—there has never been any opposition between us, not even a discredit in a sphereling or anything, much less a war. I do have some lands in the Pacific but the furthest North I've gone in Mindanao, and the "political considerations" were already in the red well before then and haven't significantly changed since I've taken Mindanao (from Spain). It started out negative and has worsened slowly over the course of the campaign. It seems like they just don't see any point in allying with me, since nothing in the AI's play has suggested it's on a collision course with me.

Presumably, it doesn't see the point in allying with anyone else, for that matter it doesn't seem to see the point in doing much, actually.

Edit: sorry, it seems TinyPic resized it:ninja: here's a full-size version so you can see better:

Spoiler

http://i41.tinypic.com/15wh1sm.jpg

Edit2: difficulty is set to Hard, if that matters.

 

[Wizzington]

I dont think this has ever been mentioned before...could you elaborate on these alliance modifiers?

Also, could I suggest making an event or something similar which would make you choose between your GP allies if you had more than two before great wars unlock?
And...to make the pre-great war era more dynamic maybe put a life span (5 years?) on alliances? Quite often youll have France and Russia allied for the whole of the first half of the game and they win every war.

I'm talking about stuff like distance modifiers and the way the AI calculates its strategic goals (Political Considerations).

 

[Chamboozer]

I'm talking about stuff like distance modifiers and the way the AI calculates its strategic goals (Political Considerations).

Speaking of distance modifiers, are they based only on distance between the two countries' capitals, or are they based on how far apart the territory of the two countries are in general? For instance, if Germany annexes the Philippines, do they have a smaller distance modifier with Japan than when they held no territory in the region?

 

[unmerged(624310)]

Don't be afraid to get opportunistic. In my game as the Ottomans I tried to get a Prussia alliance early so we could squeeze Austria together (And I'd have a European distraction for Russia to play with), they were having none of it.

Until Austria started a Brothers War that Prussia was slowly getting the short end of. They suddenly decided they liked me a whole lot better then.

 

[Aromir]

Well I don’t really know if this is right place to ask this, but I don’t really understand why the alliance feature is part of the game in the first place?
I mean, I know that we have all grown up playing strategy games that allow you to make alliances, so I do get that it is sort of tradition to include it by now, but I just don’t understand the argument for including it in Victoria 2.

Alliances, at least where great powers are concerned, seem deeply anachronistic. I can think of no historical examples from this period, where western states would make long term mutual assistance agreements like the ones portrayed by the game. Most conflicts in this period seem to be contained conflicts between two powers and their respective spheres of influence (Franco-Prussian war, Russo-Japanese war, American-Spanish war, and so on) or major conflicts between coalition that has been assembled at the outbreak of the and existed purely to achieve a certain goal (like the Crimean War, war of the triple Alliance or the First world war).
I don’t seem much of a gameplay reason for it either. I mean it hardly makes much of a difference if GP fight each other one on one rather than two on two, except that one on one is much more in line with historical facts. With a few tweaks to spheres and the Crisis system, the game can easily portray historic conflicts, without involving alliance.

So why spend a lot time working on which GP’s that will ally to which, when you effectual drop the feature and perhaps end up with a better game? Or am I missing some convincing reason why this feature exists?

 

[DBtotalwar]

When are 2nd GP alliances allowed?

In my Japan game, The same thing happened to me. Except I annexed Korea which Russia then attacked

1890s

Could you post a screenshot of their reasoning in saying no? I'm guessing Japan is falling into the same category of diploreasons that are meant to keep the US from getting involved in European affairs.

What does "base reluctance" mean?

 

[blaidd]

I can think of no historical examples from this period, where western states would make long term mutual assistance agreements like the ones portrayed by the game... ... ...the First world war

The First World War is a pretty good example actually, given that most of the nations got involved due to preexisting military alliances.

I don't think Alliances in the game should be more-or-less permanent, but I have seen Great Powers dissolve alliances for no discernible reason (not during a war or anything) in 3.02b so I guess there are other political considerations involved that can lead to them backing out of an alliance if it isn't valuable.

 

[Dorevai]

Japan needs no friends. The navy is your only friend.

 

[Khorney]

Could you post a screenshot of their reasoning in saying no? I'm guessing Japan is falling into the same category of diploreasons that are meant to keep the US from getting involved in European affairs.

If you're still checking this thread - the AI info panel doesn't show up at all in multiplayer! not even a will/will not accept, you just have to blind hope