That and you get a cheaper colony ship and a powerful bonus on your starting planet.
Hivemind 2.6, Society output gone?
- Thread starter V-Metamorph
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Ok, in order.
First: the Hive Warren topic. The Hive Warren looks like a bug. Going from 6 housing +1 Maint job to +3 Housing +5 Amenities is kind of a weird rework since Paradox normally doesn't change something this drastic to something so generic unless it's implementing some new mechanic or due to community outrage. You know what it's stats are identical to now? Luxury Residence. This seems a weird direction to suddenly go with Hive Minds, so I suspect what probably happened was they reformatted the code for housing buildings and did some copy+pasting in their code for all four archetypes (Normal, Communal, Hive, Machine) and forgot to re-code their specific differences.
You know what convinces me of this? Day 1 after starting the game, his home planet has NEGATIVE housing. Paradox doesn't like doing this: they patched a specific case situation previously where you started the game with negative income, so I can't imagine suddenly starting with negative housing because you picked Hive Mind is intentional.
Second: Maintenance drone. I....must admit I couldn't find anywhere in the video where it gives an exact output of their job, so I'll take your word that at some point it shows one job producing 3 amenities.
That IS concerning.....but I'm slightly more concerned by something else: Maintenance Depots are GONE from the construction list!
EDIT: As stated below by Eladrin, this is a concious decision on the devs part. Hive minds are now going to be focused on large quantities of small planets, so maint. Drones are few and far between. Machines will have a LOT of different sources of maintnence drones instead. Depots are gone for everyone.
I'm legitimately amazed that he managed to keep a positive amenities by the last time we saw one of his planet. How?!? Where is he getting the amenities from?!? Why are depots gone? Have they been replaced? Does the capital or some tradition give maintenance jobs per pop on a planet now? Forget the decreased amenities, how are we expected to get amenities at ALL as a Hive MInd?!? Do you need a tech to build them now? I'm fine with removing it as a mechanic for Hives and introducing something else but it's still there in the video so I assume they expect us to get it some other ways.
Third: Deviancy. You say "huge issue". Currently, there are precisely two things that high deviancy can do to a Hive Mind. The first is you lose 4 pops to "deviant" job. This is negligible since Hives are built around using more pops to accomplish the same thing as other empires. The second is -30 Stab for 10 years, which IS really bad, but it can only occur to one of your planets once a year, it has a 50% chance to instead give -30 deviancy instead, and can't target a planet that already has one of the two modifiers. So if every planet you owned had 100 deviancy, on average 5 would have -30 stab, no matter if you owned 10 or 10,000 planets (under 10 roughly half your planets would have -30 stab if all had 100 deviancy). My conclusion is that there's basically little reason to even bother with fighting deviancy beyond the early game.
At least there's a reason to fight it as Hives and Machines. Normal empires just slap the good old "Deal with Crime Lords" and never bother fighting it.
This doesn't mean that the Hunter-Seeker isn't an issue, it's just that deviancy is a negligible mechanic, so it being bad doesn't really mean much. I don't really care if my neighbor has an AC and I have only have my fridge to cool off if we both live in Antarctica.
Fourth: The Spawning Drone. Again I couldn't see it in the vid so I'll take your word. That does concern me rather greatly, total agreement here.
Fifth: Admin Cap. He never went over it. That's because this brilliant player took the Docile trait, which gives -10% Admin Cap usage from pops. On an empire that gets -25% penalties for going over the limit. I would think that having reduced penalties would, you know, encourage taking the negative version of that trait instead. This is like taking syncretic evolution and then give your main species "Industrious". I don't consider this playthrough a very good observation on if the -25% penalties for hyper-expansion are a real boon or a negligible one.
Oh, and the -10% may not sound like a huge buff, but consider this: Every colony gives +2 Empire Sprawl, every system and district +1, and every pop +1. Well I don't know about you, but a standard galaxy is 600 stars I think, which is 600 Empire Sprawl. In my last hive game I owned half the galaxy, which is about 300 systems. I had 30 planets and 40 habitats, which are 2 each for 140 sprawl. Take a relatively high estimate of about 20 districts per real planet (+600) and the 8 per habitat (+320), and the empire sprawl from all that is 1,360.
I had 25,000 pops!!! That's 25,000 Empire Sprawl!!
EDIT:Not quite. Pops are now half a sprawl, and governor skill reduces it further. Still, pops are going to be your biggest source of sprawl unless you get like -80% or -90% sprawl from pops.
And the planets weren't full. Not even CLOSE to full. And that was a hive, not an authoritarian empire that stacks planets full of slaves that use 0.15 housing.
The vast majority of Empire Sprawl is going to be pops, not even close to a contest. There'll be a period in the mid game where you have lots of systems and planet's you've just colonized, but once the pops start growing, it'll be all pops from there. Sprawl reduction from pops is going to have an enormous effect in the long run at staying under admin cap.
And the Hive seems to get their Admin Cap from a job that also gives unity while the machine empire has these roles split (?), so I'm thinking machine empire have to put in a specific effort to increase admin cap that Hive Minds don't have to worry about due to getting it as a natural part of keeping up with unity, and also from expansion. Although I am worried that we won't be able to build multiple synapse buildings, since normal empires seem able to build multiple bureaucratic buildings on one planet, but even if we can't build more than one we get 7 synapse jobs from one building (because for some reason Hive Minds don't get level 4 unity building), while everyone else puts up with just 2 per building AND their unity building for the SAME result.
Overall, I'm concerned, but hopeful that Hive Minds will still be enjoyable.
EDIT: Thanks to Eladrin below for this "hidden dev diary" clarifying what we can expect for gestaltsin Federation!
Last edited:
We talked about the hive mind changes on Monday's stream.
Yes, Maintenance Depots are gone for both hives and machines. Machines get maintenance drones all over the place, hives get three from Hive Districts (more on hive worlds).
Synapse Drones have also significantly changed roles, they now provide Administrative Capacity and Unity.
There's a Synchronicity tradition that gives them some minor Amenity production as well.
Since hives get Synapse Drones from their capital buildings and the Prosperity finisher, they end up with a pretty easy time generating administrative capacity, especially in the early and mid game. Synapse Nodes can provide more if you need them.
Hives are expected to excel at expansion and unity, and be able to support a sprawling empire of many small planets easily. Building massive worlds is intended to be a tougher for them due to their reduced opportunities to generate amenities.
Machine empires, on the other hand, get few Coordinators outside of dedicated Uplink Nodes. They have maintenance drones readily available, but unless a Servitor, tend to have trouble generating Unity. A Synchronicity tradition lets their Coordinators decrease planet deviancy.
As noted elsewhere, machine empires have substantially increased penalties for going over their Administrative Capacity. Empires that like to expand (like Exterminators or Assimilators) can still do their thing, but will have to maintain their Uplink network if they want to avoid sprawl penalties.
Yes, Maintenance Depots are gone for both hives and machines. Machines get maintenance drones all over the place, hives get three from Hive Districts (more on hive worlds).
Synapse Drones have also significantly changed roles, they now provide Administrative Capacity and Unity.
There's a Synchronicity tradition that gives them some minor Amenity production as well.
Since hives get Synapse Drones from their capital buildings and the Prosperity finisher, they end up with a pretty easy time generating administrative capacity, especially in the early and mid game. Synapse Nodes can provide more if you need them.
Hives are expected to excel at expansion and unity, and be able to support a sprawling empire of many small planets easily. Building massive worlds is intended to be a tougher for them due to their reduced opportunities to generate amenities.
Machine empires, on the other hand, get few Coordinators outside of dedicated Uplink Nodes. They have maintenance drones readily available, but unless a Servitor, tend to have trouble generating Unity. A Synchronicity tradition lets their Coordinators decrease planet deviancy.
As noted elsewhere, machine empires have substantially increased penalties for going over their Administrative Capacity. Empires that like to expand (like Exterminators or Assimilators) can still do their thing, but will have to maintain their Uplink network if they want to avoid sprawl penalties.
No, pops give half a point of sprawl, which is reduced by your sector governor.
Thank you very much for the answers. I was misguided the the fact that maintenance drones from the ressource storage building only provde 3 amenities, maybe this is a bug? I did not see the 3 Maintenance Drones producing 12 amenities in the Housing District for Hiveminds. After watching the Stream and the video of Machine empires I feel much better now.
As you know, there are 2 gigantic balance concerns in the game since 2.3, which could be summarized as the game turning into "Robot Simulator". Machine empires are too strong in the live game and Synth Ascension dwarfs Biological and Psionic Ascension. Nothing can compete with a Synth empire in the lategame thanks to their insane pop growth of 12.2 from Synths (16.6 with Cybrex War forge) plus organics growing. This adds up to easily two to three times the pop growth speed of any other empire.
After watching the stream and videos about both Hiveminds and Machines, I am very much looking forward to the next update. Machine empires seem to have gotten reasonable nerfs while retaining their strengths like 100% habitability and efficiency with alloy production and energy. Hiveminds seem to be a real competitive empire now instead of being a "joke" or "challenge" empire if you don't take Devouring Swarm.
Now the last concern I have is Synth Ascension and the Roboticist job for non-Gestalt empires. As others have observed, the Replicator job for Machine empires seems to consume 1 Alloy for producing 1.0 Robot assembly speed. I hope that you have made similar adjustments tothe Roboticist job of non-Gestalt empires. This job provides 2.0 pop growth speed for about 6 minerals upkeep. This by far the best pop growth job in the entire game and because it is so good, forces every non-Gestalt empires to use Robots (even Spiritualists) because otherwise your empire simply cannot compete. I hope that you have nerfed this job accordingly, so that Synth empires also do not end up with 12.2 pop growth anymore, but maybe something around 8. They should also receive an organic pop growth nerf similar to Machine empires. After all, once everyone has turned into Robots, why should it be so easy to reproduce still? And of course from a balance perspective this is severely needed.
Please do not forget that you guys talked about the 2nd pop growth slot to allow for different types of organics to grow alongside one type of organic in dev diaries leading up to 2.2. Sadly since 2.2, the 2nd pop growth slot only works for Robots. We would all be very happy if you made some changes to the organic pop growth buildings (maybe the one you unlock with Biological Ascension) to be able to grow 2 different (or the same) type of organics on one planet.
If you have indeed made changes to nerf Synth Ascension to a more reasonable level, then 2.6 will fix nearly all the balance problems that the vast majority of players have with the game since 2.3. And this is great for all players, even those who see themselves as players who "don't care about balance". Having empires feel unique, like Hiveminds and Machines is indeed possible while retaining a somewhat fair and balanced game. Having Synth Ascension be reasonable will help Spiritualists and Biological Ascension empires to not feel terrible for picking a different, but obsolete (in the lategame) Ascension.
Last edited:
We have not made comprehensive changes to pop growth and assembly in 2.6 Verne. Internally we're experimenting with some changes, but the scale and potential impact of the changes make us want to take our time with them.
Thank you for an honest answer! Yes I do remember that you have pop growth an your list of things to tackle. Its a good thing you will take your time with it. After all you took your time with Machine empires, Hiveminds, performance and AI updates and so far the result looks very good.
Thank you for the comprehensive breakdown! The stream didn't go into too much detail about the changes to gestalt empires, but they seem a lot more distinct now.
Pray tell, how did you ascertain that these are the problems "the vast majority of players" have? Or are you once again acting as the self-anointed voice of an imagined majority?
Just speak for yourself, that's enough.
Are you somehow playing a different base game with different numbers?
No?
Then you're having the same problems, whether you're willing to recognize them or not.
Or I don't really see those issues as problems. But never mind, please do continue to tell me what I think.
Exactly. "Whether you're willing to recognize them as problems or not". Thank you for precisely proving my point.
Ah, I see. You've appointed yourself the "Arbiter of Problems". You get to decide what's a problem for anyone, regardless of wether they consider it a problem or not. Silly me to think that I got to decide what I consider a problem.
To reiterate on a point. Speak for yourself.
To reiterate on a point. Imbalance in a game does not cease to exist just because you shrug and go "Well I can put up with it" any more than 1+1 starts to equal 3 just because you feel like it, and nor is anyone who points out "No, it's actually 2/ no there actually is substantial imbalance" some 'arbiter of what people think'.
It just means we're right about this, and you're wrong, no matter how many times you glibly say "Speak for yourself".
the problem is not actualy the machine empire , or the synth ascension . its that organics are too low on growth rate in comparison .
regular empire that use robotics can have 2 pops growing at the same time , while machine empires have no nerf for new colonies , and can colonize anything for no increased upkeep .
this , in a gran strategy game , result in a great snowballing power, given by superior economy coming from the number of pops . the ascension for sinth is simply something that accentuate the snowballing by giving modifiers to robots ( robomodding and production increases)
the problem is that hive can't have 2 pop growing at the same time, and regular empire that don't use robots ( or have all the benefit of materialist+ ascension) can't compare to in growth rate of the economy .
its not that machine are OP , its that basic empire and hivemind in 2.2-2.5 were nerfed in growth rate ( and habitability) . an "izy" fix would be to unchain growth rate of different pops , increase growth rate by number of pops ( increase\decrease - low\many or the otherway around , as you prefer to look at evolution) and alow hive to grow 2 variant at time once researched the first genetic point .
this way organics will gain back theyr reproduction capacity , but still get to pay for habitability , while machine keep theyr uniqueness .
The game largely breaks apart at Machine Intelligence growth rates. It's too many POPs. So, no, organic growth isn't "too low", Machine growth is just WAY too high.
I do, because I care about how the AI performs and hiveminds are garbage that fall apart and machine empires dominate the galaxy every time.
The fact that the AI is AS BROKEN AS IT CURRENTLY IS and can STILL eat the entire galaxy if it gets handed a Machine Intelligence empire is a HUGE problem. People care about options being roughly balanced because it encourages variety of play.
That doesn't make imbalance a problem. You seem to think imbalance is inherently a problem, and while I happen to agree (in the specific context of strategy games), that's not some universal, logically-provable Truth.
Heck, lots of people don't play Stellaris as a strategy game at all, they play it to roleplay some weird spacefaring empire.
Sure, I care about that too. I care about balance quite a bit and wish the empire type didn't have so much impact on how well an AI empire flourishes. But not everybody does, and evidently @Peko? doesn't. Besides, "everybody cares about balance" isn't even the claim @Methone was making, he just assumed that as given.