Hive Mind Ruler

[Dalwin]

I just picked up Utopia on sale. Of course I immediately jumped in with a hive mind. At first glance, I thought the automatic immortal trait on the ruler would be a good thing.

It didn't take me long to realize that the immortal ruler is a bad thing. It is a penalty against the hive mind. They are perpetually locked into having a ruler who has no other traits and generates no bonus whatsoever in any category. Even the numerical skill of the ruler does not seem to get applied to anything.

Am I missing something?

 

[Dalwin]

I guess that if I am lucky then RNG might give me a trait at level up. If I am really lucky it might even be a positive one. There are apparently also a few that can be forced eventually through ascension or research.

 

[Spectra Twilight]

As someone who hates randomness and exclusively plays nothing but Machine Intelligence, I personally see the ruler's exclusion from the ability to acquire random traits or die as positive elements. All that matters is that linear level increase that can never taken away from me.

Additionally, my ruler provides +3% unity generation and +5% edict duration per level, and while I cannot be certain from my in-game experiences, I imagine that ruler levels of other empires provide these bonuses as well.

 

[elitesix]

Asymmetric balance. Hive minds are pretty good in 2.2 overall.

Overall I think hive mind's leaders as a whole are slightly better than organics. Immortal ruler means you get crazy +unity bonuses forever, and hive mind leaders have the same max age but can be recruited approximately 15-20 years younger, so basically, they start with enduring trait automatically by having young leaders.

Edited for clarity: Immortal leader -> Immortal ruler

 

[Dalwin]

Asymmetric balance. Hive minds are pretty good in 2.2 overall.

Overall I think hive mind's leaders as a whole are slightly better than organics. Immortal leader means you get crazy +unity bonuses forever, and hive mind leaders have the same max age but can be recruited approximately 15-20 years younger, so basically, they start with enduring trait automatically by having young leaders.

I am confused. It is only the ruler who is immortal, not all leaders. And as far as I can tell she provides no bonuses at all, none.

I am not saying that hive mind is disadvantaged overall. I am simply a bit surprised that the designers chose to go such a bland and flavorless way with their rulers.

 

[Bouchart]

Regular hive mind leaders are mortal and have the same lifespan of non-hive mind leaders, plus any modifiers. However, hive mind leaders can be recruited when they are a few years old, whereas non hive mind leaders are typically around 30 or so at their youngest.

 

[elitesix]

I am simply a bit surprised that the designers chose to go such a bland and flavorless way with their rulers.

I do agree with you in general, that hive minds all around are somewhat bland. Their civics especially seem lacking imagination.

 

[Playwars]

I am confused. It is only the ruler who is immortal, not all leaders. And as far as I can tell she provides no bonuses at all, none.

I am not saying that hive mind is disadvantaged overall. I am simply a bit surprised that the designers chose to go such a bland and flavorless way with their rulers.

You misunderstood him, he said that leaders (scientists, generals, ect) are younger at recruitment in a hive mind by 20 years, thus giving them a longer time of service in your empire.

And a hive mind levels up, and each ruler level gives bonuses to unity production AND edict duration. That's why having an immortal ruler is so good.

And lastly, one thing I don't understand, you do realise this is a HIVE MIND right ? A gestalt consciousness ? It's a massive superintelligence, not a president, so I don't see how they could add favor to it's "ruler" beside the civics for the hive mind.

 

[elitesix]

It is only the ruler who is immortal... And as far as I can tell she provides no bonuses at all, none.

All rulers have levels, just like non-ruler leaders. Ruler levels affect +unity% bonus to the empire, as well as one other thing I forgot. You can verify this by looking at the tooltip for the unity resource at the upper top of the game.

You can see this in the hive mind government screen upper left, there is a small icon with a roman numeral for the ruler level, and the tooltip describes the bonuses from the leader level there as well.

 

[Astax]

You can also add some modifiers to him by changing the original homeworld pops, as the leader is tied to one of the starting pops in your empire.

 

[Dalwin]

All rulers have levels, just like non-ruler leaders. Ruler levels affect +unity% bonus to the empire, as well as one other thing I forgot. You can verify this by looking at the tooltip for the unity resource at the upper top of the game.

You can see this in the hive mind government screen upper left, there is a small icon with a roman numeral for the ruler level, and the tooltip describes the bonuses from the leader level there as well.

What you say here, may indeed be true. However, I clearly know about levels on the leaders (including the ruler) since I referred to it a number of times. Also the tool tip for unity may have said something about ruler level before 2.2 (I wouldn't know having only recently gotten Utopia.) I assure you that at present it says nothing at all about it.

Someone else mentioned that the duration on edicts is the other thing affected. That is likely also correct except once again the interface itself says nothing to this effect. Ruler level is not listed as a factor on any single tooltip and I checked them all before starting this thread.

I am pleased to learn that it does affect unity and edict duration.

(EDIT: OK I now see that the tip which mentions it is on the ruler herself and not on unity income etc. The number does not really work out as stated, however. Mine shows a total unity income of 35.04. That is 5 base plus 30.04 from Jobs. If you go to each planet and add up the jobs it comes to 28. Presumably the 2.04 is coming from the Ruler, but at level 3 She says the bonus should be 9%. Obviously 2.04 is not 9% of either 28 or 33 (depending on whether the base is meant to be included.))

 

[Dalwin]

And lastly, one thing I don't understand, you do realise this is a HIVE MIND right ? A gestalt consciousness ? It's a massive superintelligence, not a president, so I don't see how they could add favor to it's "ruler" beside the civics for the hive mind.

You do realize, I hope, that your concept of hive mind is extremely narrow. I suspect your knowledge of sci-fi might be very limited.

Let's take a common example from a popular movie, "Aliens." They are clearly a hive mind and have a single dominant queen for the hive. There is no reason at all to assume that dominant individual cannot have the same range of personal traits as any other self aware individual. It is the drones who are of limited mentality, not the queen.

 

[elitesix]

The pop job tool tips display a rounded value though the actual value is not rounded. Terribad design decision, but it makes things like calculating really hard. You basically have to calculate things from scratch.

 

[FleetingRain]

Hive Mind leaders are immortal and have ruler traits.

...Or at least they did in 2.1. Now they are immortal but can die lmao.

 

[Dalwin]

The pop job tool tips display a rounded value though the actual value is not rounded. Terribad design decision, but it makes things like calculating really hard. You basically have to calculate things from scratch.

In this case they are then also not following any conventional rounding system. For example, they show each synapse drone job as producing 4 unity. For the 2.04 to be 9% of the total that means that the base number had to be 22 and 2/3. Divided by the 7 workers (and assuming the empire base value of 5 does not benefit from the bonus for some odd reason) that is a bit over 3 and 1/3 per worker. Firstly not only should that not round up to 4 (it is almost as if they are using reverse truncation, i.e. 1.01 would show as 2) but 4 of them on a planet would produce ~13.4 and yet the UI shows it as 16, i.e. 4 workers times 4 points each).

Now I am used to joking about Paradox math, but they really seem to have outdone themselves here.

 

[elitesix]

In this case they are then also not following any conventional rounding system. For example, they show each synapse drone job as producing 4 unity. For the 2.04 to be 9% of the total that means that the base number had to be 22 and 2/3. Divided by the 7 workers (and assuming the empire base value of 5 does not benefit from the bonus for some odd reason) that is a bit over 3 and 1/3 per worker. Firstly not only should that not round up to 4 (it is almost as if they are using reverse truncation, i.e. 1.01 would show as 2) but 4 of them on a planet would produce ~13.4 and yet the UI shows it as 16, i.e. 4 workers times 4 points each).

Now I am used to joking about Paradox math, but they really seem to have outdone themselves here.

Yes, the rounding is weird. For example, the trait "strong" actually provides a 2.5% worker bonus, but it shows up as 2%. It is totally conceivable that the displayed rounding is just bugged.

 

[elitesix]

Hive Mind leaders are immortal and have ruler traits.

...Or at least they did in 2.1. Now they are immortal but can die lmao.

I just read on the steam forum someone else having their immortal hive mind ruler dying in this version. Lol bugs.

 

[nuyu]

You do realize, I hope, that your concept of hive mind is extremely narrow. I suspect your knowledge of sci-fi might be very limited.

Let's take a common example from a popular movie, "Aliens." They are clearly a hive mind and have a single dominant queen for the hive. There is no reason at all to assume that dominant individual cannot have the same range of personal traits as any other self aware individual. It is the drones who are of limited mentality, not the queen.

I assume Stellaris Hive Mind are more like The Tyranids | Warhammer 40,000.
This is how I see them whenever I play as Hive Mind.

 

[Playwars]

You do realize, I hope, that your concept of hive mind is extremely narrow. I suspect your knowledge of sci-fi might be very limited.

Let's take a common example from a popular movie, "Aliens." They are clearly a hive mind and have a single dominant queen for the hive. There is no reason at all to assume that dominant individual cannot have the same range of personal traits as any other self aware individual. It is the drones who are of limited mentality, not the queen.

It is NOT a hive mind as you see it in Stellaris, not AT all, what you're saying is that ANTS are an hive mind, which they are not, as in Stellaris hive minds are when all members of a specie are psionically connected to form a mega-intelligence, a gestalt consciousness, don't believe me ? Read the description of the authority and the civics.

 

[Velorian]

It is NOT a hive mind as you see it in Stellaris, not AT all, what you're saying is that ANTS are an hive mind, which they are not, as in Stellaris hive minds are when all members of a specie are psionically connected to form a mega-intelligence, a gestalt consciousness, don't believe me ? Read the description of the authority and the civics.

Well they have semi-independent drones which have a personality of sorts. No reason they can't have a queen as the controlling nexus of the mind, which also has a personality.