Hive Mind or "We sure do think alike"

[Vasious]

That seems a bit odd. I mean im not questioning the software engineering, but it seems to me that "hivemind" govt type is as simple as a penalty to research traded off with a boost to industry and a - in ethics divergence.

*shrug*

If you would be happy with a Hive Mind simply be that.

There is already an AI Personality which is Hivemind, with the appropriate flavour text for Conformists, who are Fanatic Collectivists, without the any Pacifism

Make them a Despotic Hegemony as "This government is a materialistic form of autocracy, where citizens are viewed as little more than cogs in the state machinery. Efficiency and technological progress are valued above all things." seemed most fitting fluff wise and used customer Empire Ruler titles, of Voice of the Hive

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

If you would be happy with a Hive Mind simply be that.

There is already an AI Personality which is Hivemind, with the appropriate flavour text for Conformists, who are Fanatic Collectivists, without the any Pacifism

Make them a Despotic Hegemony as "This government is a materialistic form of autocracy, where citizens are viewed as little more than cogs in the state machinery. Efficiency and technological progress are valued above all things." seemed most fitting fluff wise and used customer Empire Ruler titles, of Voice of the Hive

In fairness, bringing up the Hive Mind AI personality is a bit of a red herring in this conversation- a common complaint about said personality is that its entirely superficial and has no actual bearing on the way the species or government operates.

 

[Meneliki]

In fairness, bringing up the Hive Mind AI personality is a bit of a red herring in this conversation- a common complaint about said personality is that its entirely superficial and has no actual bearing on the way the species or government operates.

Im not sure if that's the case. I feel like the different personality types probably do actually behave differently, though in a broad sense it would be difficult for us as the players to perceive that AI.

I could be wrong, tho.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Im not sure if that's the case. I feel like the different personality types probably do actually behave differently, though in a broad sense it would be difficult for us as the players to perceive that AI.

I could be wrong, tho.

There are absolutely diplomatic/behavioural modifiers imparted by AI personality, and Hive Minds have them too- but they're just tweaking some numbers.

Again, the primary complain is that there is no mechanical difference. The "hive mind" aspect is purely superficial.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

as I suggested in a thread in my sig, giving a species a trait that makes them able to produce organic robot-like "drone" POPs that require Food instead of Energy, and maybe require a particular "drone" to "Queen" ratio(and in turn "Queens" would need a curtain ratio to be happy/grow) is the closest I'd want to have to a hive mind at the start; you get some risk for divergence from the "Queen" POPs who would in turn will bring their "drones" with them if/when they rebel.

 

[Meneliki]

I tend to agree here. And yes it boils down to not wanting to deal with the part of the game that makes it grand strategy, and that's pops lives

No, that's not true for me at least. For me it's all about how an empire 'feels'.. slight variations in bonuses/stats/asthetics create huge differences in the 'feel' you get when playing an empire.. So when I say I want to play a hivemind style, Im not saying "I want to circumvent ethics divergence" im saying "I want to feel like an ant empire". Organized insect societies have a habit of working together in incredible harmony, which A) is admirable and worthy of respect, and B) could be encapsulated by a few bonuses here and a few maluses there.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Organized insect societies have a habit of working together in incredible harmony, which A) is admirable and worthy of respect, and B) could be encapsulated by a few bonuses here and a few maluses there.

Again I really like my "have a Trait that enables 'construction' of organic robot-like POPs" idea for simulating that... maybe even have it come as part of a patch that also adds the ability to have a second sapient species on your homeworld that that trait would repurpose for the Drone subspecies.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

No, that's not true for me at least. For me it's all about how an empire 'feels'.. slight variations in bonuses/stats/asthetics create huge differences in the 'feel' you get when playing an empire.. So when I say I want to play a hivemind style, Im not saying "I want to circumvent ethics divergence" im saying "I want to feel like an ant empire". Organized insect societies have a habit of working together in incredible harmony, which A) is admirable and worthy of respect, and B) could be encapsulated by a few bonuses here and a few maluses there.

In fairness, ants have civil wars and internal conflict too. Different queens and their families can go to war against each other in multi-queen hives, but also workers can and will imprison queens that start misbehaving.

 

[Meneliki]

In fairness, ants have civil wars and internal conflict too. Different queens and their families can go to war against each other in multi-queen hives, but also workers can and will imprison queens that start misbehaving.

That's correct, yes.

I just don't see the big resistance about implementing something so simple into Stellaris. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping the game difficult. I'm not for any mechanics that make the game easier, or 'dumb it down'.. but like i said.. a penalty to research in exchange for a bonus to production doesn't strike me as a game-brekaing trait If I want to play a hive mind/insect style.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

That's correct, yes.

I just don't see the big resistance about implementing something so simple into Stellaris. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping the game difficult. I'm not for any mechanics that make the game easier, or 'dumb it down'.. but like i said.. a penalty to research in exchange for a bonus to production doesn't strike me as a game-brekaing trait If I want to play a hive mind/insect style.

Personally, I find it odd that there isn't an existing defect that makes your species worse at research- an opposite to "Intelligent".

My response to a lot of "We need some mechanic for X" where X relates to unique species abilities is "Why not just expand/rework the Traits system for it". You could build basically what you're describing with an "Unintelligent" defect added to the game.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

You could build basically what you're describing with an "Unintelligent" defect added to the game.

I suppose the must have thought that it would be immersion braking to have "dumb" or "dim" aliens achieving space flight... maybe having a "Dogmatic" trait would work, but that term implies religiosity(even if it technically doesn't have to be, there is that association in people's minds)

 

[Strager]

This is why I suggested two kinds of Hiveminds. One type you select at game start (Let's call that Hives) and the AI never spwns more than 1 in a galaxy. The other (lets call it "Collectives") you could become mid-game. They would operate under similar mechanics, but have distinct technologies, abilties, and goals.

When choosing to be a Hive, you select a single ethos similar to fallen empires. Each "ethos" has a different effect. For example being spiritual so your Overlord/Queen might think of itself as a God to the rest of the universe and get special techs and events based on this.

When choosing (or not) to become part of a collective, You similarly might have a single ethos but this is a special ethos only for collectives. Your primary goal is to convert the galaxy to become part of your collective.

Diplomacy: Both Hives and Collectives should be prohibited from diplomacy. Other players shouldn't even see their borders. They would be permanently at war with all other species.

Combat & War: Hives would operate differently than Collectives in this regard.

Hives start by clearing any fleets and than launching attacks from controlled worlds (think Starship Troopers) directly to the world being attacked. They convert killed pops to food after conquering a world.

Collectives on the other hand would get special "Conversion" technologies. Their conversion machines would turn pops and armies into members of their own faction.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I suppose the must have thought that it would be immersion braking to have "dumb" or "dim" aliens achieving space flight... maybe having a "Dogmatic" trait would work, but that term implies religiosity(even if it technically doesn't have to be, there is that association in people's minds)

Eh. There are plenty of species with clunky tech and brutal, anti-intellectual societies in scifi.

 

[Hazrond]

I mean, sure, if your idea of a "hive mind" is playing the Tyranids of the Zerg, but I would argue that those aren't really suitable for players at all.

I'm not sure about the Tyranids but the Zerg actually show a rather interesting take on the Hive Mind that would be functional i should think. It's shown that while the Zerglings and such lack autonomy the higher ups of the Hive aren't bound by the same laws. In the Heart of the Swarm expansion we see several factions of Zerg each under the control of their own leader, Kerrigan's zerg, Stukov's infested, Zagara's brood. It seems that anything above a Queen as well as strong-willed infested versions of other races are capable of overpowering the hive mind and bending it to their own will, which leads to factions of Zerg because any one leader can only control a certain amount of the mindless zerg due to what i can only assume is the psionic strain of serving as the mind of the hive.

 

[Tavior]

I'm not sure about the Tyranids but the Zerg actually show a rather interesting take on the Hive Mind that would be functional i should think. It's shown that while the Zerglings and such lack autonomy the higher ups of the Hive aren't bound by the same laws. In the Heart of the Swarm expansion we see several factions of Zerg each under the control of their own leader, Kerrigan's zerg, Stukov's infested, Zagara's brood. It seems that anything above a Queen as well as strong-willed infested versions of other races are capable of overpowering the hive mind and bending it to their own will, which leads to factions of Zerg because any one leader can only control a certain amount of the mindless zerg due to what i can only assume is the psionic strain of serving as the mind of the hive.

Not quite correct. It is the other way around. Kerrigan is forcing one of her queen (through dna manipulation) to become more intelligence and independent. More like individual with lot of slaves than true alien Hive.

If I were going to cite an example of a proper Hive. I would start with MorningLightMountain (named so because of the location it grew the first pre-industrial "community" for lack of a better word) from Peter Hamilton Commonwealth series.

The species that make up the MorningLightMountain is split into two distinct different organism. They are named immotile and motile. Immotile carry the same personality of a community for centuries and order motile around to do their tasks.

They basically have one personality for the most of first 2 books. But in later books reader discovered were other "variations" of MorningLightMountain where they actually incorporated other aliens species as motile with more freedom than the original motile.

So I don't really get the arguement that implementing a Hive Mind would "remove a large part" of the gameplay in form of leader/governor etc... If anything it actually work against not implementing Hive mind.

If anything I see it as a gameplay to overcome phobia of become a part of a Hive Mind to get more diversity and better motile in your civilization aka Xenophile. Or just go the evil route and wipe everyone else in a competition for resources.

 

[Hazrond]

Not quite correct. It is the other way around. Kerrigan is forcing one of her queen (through dna manipulation) to become more intelligence and independent.

More intelligent and independant yes, but the basic components were there before she began. Zagara fought Kerrigan on Charr for control over the Zerg located there and other Broodmother queens show a similar level of independence, once cut off from Kerrigan they each became a miniature swarm unto themselves and when she returned they were not so quick to fall back into line.

 

[Tavior]

More intelligent and independant yes, but the basic components were there before she began. Zagara fought Kerrigan on Charr for control over the Zerg located there and other Broodmother queens show a similar level of independence, once cut off from Kerrigan they each became a miniature swarm unto themselves and when she returned they were not so quick to fall back into line.

Even the primal zerg were NOT even remotely hive-like.

It was the Amon's Xel'naga that "forced evolved" some of the primal Zerg into the Hive-like Zerg you saw in Starcraft. Confusing right? It was part of a longer-term plan to create a Zerg/Protoss Hybrid by Amon. The primal zerg that got left behind were individual just like Dehaka was before Kerrigan met it.

Anyway I digress.

MorningLightMountain is still in my mind a far better example.

 

[Kat Tsun]

I suppose the must have thought that it would be immersion braking to have "dumb" or "dim" aliens achieving space flight... maybe having a "Dogmatic" trait would work, but that term implies religiosity(even if it technically doesn't have to be, there is that association in people's minds)

"Dull" is suitably neutral without being overly idiomatic.

DIm might work if Intelligent were called Bright.

 

[Strager]

So uhh..... now that we know the feature is coming..... WOW!!!

Mechanics are going to be interesting..... I wonder how they will handle things like technology..... ethics seems straightforward - just make a Hive ethic for pops.

Do you think they are going to go with the "Starship troopers" type hive mind or the Cyberman/Borg type.... or both?!?!?!

 

[Cagliostro]

I was going to start a thread about this myself, but I see there's already one.

Personally I'd have the aliens themselves have a 'eusocial' trait, which basically makes them slave pops, like, good at resources but not at research, but actually 'enslaving' them be meaningless. Greatly reduced (or possibly no) cost for purging them. Don't join factions. Possibly a 'listless' modifier for being owned by governments who are not of the hive.

Then I'd have the hive mind government form which gives same species happiness and -ethics drift (possibly a great deal), but lacks science. You could if you wanted make the 'leader' immortal, l'm sure. Have the hive mind government give a strong negative to individualist pops they add on. Leaders could be abstracted into concepts, or left alone - I don't think at this stage that's the biggest stopper to such a project. Eventually you might want to rethink what 'influence' means to a hive, but that could be solved later, not in the initial mechanics.

I don't think at all that it's too complex for the engine or automatically too OP. There are a lot of games going within Stellaris - not everyone needs to play the ethics drift game every time, if you make other parts of the game more daunting. Tech malus has already been suggested and is obvious.

Anyway, I think there's kind of a lot more hostility to the idea than is warranted. The game is going to get more complex over time, if it survives. Concepts like this need to find their way into game.