Hive Mind or "We sure do think alike"

[Strager]

It sure would be awesome to allow for hiveminds. Both from the start (Trait) or maybe something borg-like that converts people of other species? Lots of things that could be done here.....

 

[Meneliki]

New government type: Collectivist/unification -science. +prodution
New advanced government type: Hivemind: --Science, ++production

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Paradox has already stated that a "Hive Mind" would have to exist so far outside the current mechanics and balance that it could never be a part of the base game and would require its own dedicated DLC.

 

[Meneliki]

Paradox has already stated that a "Hive Mind" would have to exist so far outside the current mechanics and balance that it could never be a part of the base game and would require its own dedicated DLC.

That seems a bit odd. I mean im not questioning the software engineering, but it seems to me that "hivemind" govt type is as simple as a penalty to research traded off with a boost to industry and a - in ethics divergence.

*shrug*

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

That seems a bit odd. I mean im not questioning the software engineering, but it seems to me that "hivemind" govt type is as simple as a penalty to research traded off with a boost to industry and a - in ethics divergence.

*shrug*

Here's the thing: the majority of mods that give access to a "Hive Mind" do so by making it completely abolish Ethics drift. That's what people usually seem to want when they talk about it. And, moreso now with the upcoming 1.5 changes, Ethics and the effects of their divergence is a core part of the game.

A feature that cuts out major chunks of content and the balance that comes with them cannot be a core part of the game. For instance- without kludgework "obvious excuse" answers like "They're different sub-personalities", how do you explain the Leader mechanic for a species that has a single mind?

 

[Meneliki]

Here's the thing: the majority of mods that give access to a "Hive Mind" do so by making it completely abolish Ethics drift. That's what people usually seem to want when they talk about it. And, moreso now with the upcoming 1.5 changes, Ethics and the effects of their divergence is a core part of the game.

A feature that cuts out major chunks of content and the balance that comes with them cannot be a core part of the game. For instance- without kludgework "obvious excuse" answers like "They're different sub-personalities", how do you explain the Leader mechanic for a species that has a single mind?

No, you're totally right. Ethics/Divergence is a huge part of the game, and stands to become an even bigger part of the game with 1.5, so a mechanic that circumvents divergence altogether would be probably overpowered.

However. We stand upon the precipice of getting Dyson Spheres, which the original developers of the game (I.e. Henrik) specifically stated early on they felt would be overpowered. So, new project leads have different views. (nothing against Wiz - he's doing a great job)

 

[Radically Right Wing]

Here's the thing: the majority of mods that give access to a "Hive Mind" do so by making it completely abolish Ethics drift. That's what people usually seem to want when they talk about it. And, moreso now with the upcoming 1.5 changes, Ethics and the effects of their divergence is a core part of the game.

A feature that cuts out major chunks of content and the balance that comes with them cannot be a core part of the game. For instance- without kludgework "obvious excuse" answers like "They're different sub-personalities", how do you explain the Leader mechanic for a species that has a single mind?

I think that HiveMinds should be reserved for an Ascended form of Empire. Just like Cyborg species and Transcended Energy Beings.

 

[Krajzen]

That seems a bit odd. I mean im not questioning the software engineering, but it seems to me that "hivemind" govt type is as simple as a penalty to research traded off with a boost to industry and a - in ethics divergence.
*shrug*

I don't get this logic. Yes, this 'hive mind' would be easy to implement.

...would you really be satisfied with "hive mind" which doesn't differ in any war from other races except few numbers switched as usual?

Wouldn't you prefer hive mind which has, you know, some actual interesting mechanics and difference from regular empires, so you wouldn't be disappointed in it after few minutes of 'wow I am called hive mind' novelty?

Hive mind needs special treatment to actually be cool instead "one more set of bonuses".
Especially as it would have to remove Leaders, Factions, Unity and few other crucial features from the game - and replace them with something exotic and engaging. "Hive mind" would suck if it removed whole parts of the game without offering something really interesting in exchange (note: raw numerical bonuses are not very interesting )

 

[nweismuller]

Also bear in mind that the usual interpretation of hive minds has them as not integrating well into other empires, which means it has to be considered how conquest and integration of hive mind planets works. Do other empires have to automatically slaughter the general population of a hive mind planet they take in war, because the local hive does not cooperate with aliens outside of it? Does this excite hatred amongst other empires like mass slaughter normally would, or is it accepted, because it's a freaking hive mind, cleaning them off the planet is the only way to handle it and it's not like you're killing 'people', just elements of a hive, anyhow?

I don't think the people who want to play as hives want to see members of their hive be integrated to be free-thinking democratic capitalist citizens of some republic somewhere, for their part.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

However. We stand upon the precipice of getting Dyson Spheres, which the original developers of the game (I.e. Henrik) specifically stated early on they felt would be overpowered. So, new project leads have different views. (nothing against Wiz - he's doing a great job)

The comment on "Hive minds will have to be a DLC" was itself something by Wiz in a fairly recent Dev Diary thread- I think possibly even the one about the new Ethics system.

 

[Adaption]

I like the idea, but balance would definitely be an issue, since Hive Minds would likely have an ethics uniformity which would render a lot of the factional-demographic mechanics useless (A good example would be the new Citizenship mechanics, because hiveminds seem to either assimilate like the Borg, Consume like the Zerg/Arachnids, or consume and assimilate like the Tyranids). It would definitely have to be apart of a DLC, maybe one which deals broadly with ethics and ideology?
Considering the amount of control and assumed efficiency that it would give you, it would definitely require some risk-reward.
I'd use something like the wormhole radius system - have psychic link break the further a planet/fleet is from the Central Control Hivemind, and have networks which expand that range, with the issue being that you get rapid ethics divergence, rebellion risk, reduced production on planets, and fleets lose speed and power, giving you an incentive to keep a strong link, while also giving your opponents a target to hit to knock you out - it would make you very strong, but losing a networking node might end up with you losing an entire sector. But that's just my thoughts on how to implement a mechanic they already have.

 

[f98alda]

Also bear in mind that the usual interpretation of hive minds has them as not integrating well into other empires, which means it has to be considered how conquest and integration of hive mind planets works.

Well, there is at least one interpretation where the hive mind at least tries to integrate (the Enderverse, with the buggers). So there would probably have to be some difference depending on the hive mind ethos.

 

[Surimi]

Hive minds already exist in game. They are one of the AI personalities though so they are only labelled as hive minds when the AI is playing them.

To meet the requirements you should:

1) Be fanatic collectivist.
2) Not be pacifist
3) Have your primary species be conformist.

Also bear in mind that the usual interpretation of hive minds has them as not integrating well into other empires, which means it has to be considered how conquest and integration of hive mind planets works.

I mean, sure, if your idea of a "hive mind" is playing the Tyranids of the Zerg, but I would argue that those aren't really suitable for players at all, and are better represented in game by the prethoryn swarm. To make them playable, you'd need to invent whole new ways to make their gameplay interesting beyond just Ghengis Khaning the entire galaxy.

But I see no reason why a species with a collective consciousness would have any issues integrating into another society. For one, unless they are communicating by magic (which exists in Stellaris but has to be researched and is linked to already powerful Ascention Perks) then their ability to share thoughts and ideas will be bound by the laws of physics. Maybe they communicate chemically like ants, or via some kind of organic radio. Maybe they need to be physically touching (like the changelings in DS9) and spend part of their lives as individuals before returning to their natural state of collective consciousness. Members of such a species would need to have some limited ability to operate alone, or at least at the local level, and yes, you could assume they'd be hyper hostile to non-collective species, but that seems to me more a function of their ethics. It seems just as reasonable to suggest that members of such a species would be compelled to try and "fit in" or avoid conflict to the best of their ability.

 

[dying0d]

It would have to be dedicated dlc.

For one, ethics divergence goes out the window at the start, they all share the same consciousness, so they never would divert until maybe they encounter and live beside other societies.

Conquering them would be inherently bad. They would not have the ability to socially adapt as well as other sentient species after being cut off from the greater hive consciousness

That said the consciousness itself would have to be some physical system, otherwise there would be no way to integrate hive mind empires pops ever. Which would be boring if the only supported mechanic for dealing with them is cleansing planets and purging. This also would impart penalties of some sort to their pops, and adding back in ethics divergence for the effected pops.

Then there are types of hive mind consciousness to consider, machine matrix shared thought or chemical signaling in order to share consciousness.

Governments would need changing, hive minds in the context of government forms in the game don't fit. In fact I'd theorize they don't have a government at all, or an absolute ruler at best(which is closest to any normal government form ie queens)

Said governments need to be put in so they offer something to the player as well. Whatever types you come up with have to be meaningful and fit the mechanics. Especially since ED is not going to be a problem, there needs to be mechanics that are tailored to basically 128483 of the same singular pop across however many worlda.

Production isn't where I would put its bonus, I'd rather it be energy or science. And also the pop growth mechanic should be tweaked because the hive would literally not care one bit about efficient use of its life forms. Sure a growth malus modifier could represent that, but events or something to remove their pops at random sometimes could represent a huge failure to achieve something

Combat bonuses would fit them too, especially because they harbor a singular consciousness.

Basically, using current stellaris framework, they would either be way too op, or boring as hell. There are benevolent designs you could do on hive mind akin to ds9 changeling, where they wander for awhile and share with the singular consciousness the ezperience. But I don't see a viable way to integrate that into the game right now, with its current systems.

This type of rework being dedicated to a dlc makes sense. Also that dlc having maybe robot phenotypes as well, because a (n actual) machine consciousness would be viable at that point. But with the central fixtures within the game, and how a singular consciousness would remove them, it doesn't sound particularly doable unless taken on in this scope.

 

[Avian Overlord]

I don't get the interest in Hive Minds. They're a boring overused trope, and what people seem to want from them is to not have to play the game.

 

[The_Fylkir]

What I would like, failing a hive mind, is a Group Mind. That is, a species bound together under a single overmind or oversoul, but without losing their own individual minds and personalities to it. A gestalt consciousness formed from a subconscious psychic link between individuals or such.

It would let me play a race I made for my own fiction universe, The Sithrimni Collective, in Stellaris. They'd be able to have individual leaders, factions and all that sort of thing, it is just that factions for them would not be secessionist or rebellious but be about policy change or ethics change.

 

[dying0d]

I don't get the interest in Hive Minds. They're a boring overused trope, and what people seem to want from them is to not have to play the game.

I tend to agree here. And yes it boils down to not wanting to deal with the part of the game that makes it grand strategy, and that's pops lives

 

[Foefaller]

I don't get the interest in Hive Minds. They're a boring overused trope, and what people seem to want from them is to not have to play the game.

I think it's born out of a desire to play as a society that is truly alien, instead of being Space (insert real-world historical culture here)

and yeah, just being pops with no empire ethics divergence is boring.

 

[Avian Overlord]

"Truly Alien" seems to translate to "mindless monster" in my experience.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

I don't get the interest in Hive Minds. They're a boring overused trope, and what people seem to want from them is to not have to play the game.

One of the races I have for my science fiction universe, that I am using in Stellaris(which is basically incompatible with it) is a hive-mind(well actually a hierarchical gestalt consciousness, but I'm not going to bore you with details...), and I would like to have them be as accurate as possible, and even stacking ethics divergence like a madman doesn't quite get there.

It's not about not playing the game, it's about the game matching the concept of the race as closely as possible, at least for me, as I have a fairly expansive scifi headcanon.