Hive Mind needs some refinement

[heliostellar]

I think Hive Mind needs more refinement.

1. Harmony traditions - almost the entire tree is useless for hive minds because they have to do with either factions or unrest, both of which are not active game mechanics for Hive Minds. I would propose that the tree be slightly altered for hives. One idea would be to swap out "The Greater Good" with the ability to instantly assimilate non-hive pops (add Hive Mind trait). This segues into my next issue:
2. Auto Purging is clunky - an empire with decent gene tech can easily and cheaply add the Hive Mind trait to conquered pops to add the pops into the collective. It costs no trait points. I would re-organize this and make it a Purge policy instead.
3. Lack of factions is a drawback - for a non-hive empire, happy factions produce a good amount of Influence. I think that hives should have some unique way to gain free Influence points too. It could be as simple as converting an otherwise useless tradition to provide a flat +1.0 point/month for instance.
4. Non-hive pops should be usable. I get that Paradox wanted to make the hive feel more restrictive in some ways with this being one of them. However, it's very easy to assimilate already as I've said. I think it would be interesting to at least have the ability to use other pops as cattle.

 

[Curator Sapidianus]

As a hivemind you have:
(pros)
1. Unique Ethos
2. Unique Government type
3. Immortal ruler
4. No drawbacks from factions
5. No drawbacks from happiness
(cons)
1. No bonuses from factions
2. No bonuses from happiness
3. No robots
4. No slaves
5. Forced autopurge of non-hivemind pops
6. Only one ascension path is possible
7. No way to change ethos midgame

For competent player it means, that you play a weaker empire, because all the bonuses are meaningless for players. Unique ethos doesnt give better bonuses than any other ethos. Unity bonus is weaker than Pacifist have and influence is weaker than influence from factions. Immortal ruler is pointless without ruler's traits. No happiness without an option to enslave is pointless, most of builds that doesnt use slavery or robots have good happiness that increases production.

AI on the other hand manages faction way worse than players and for an AI empire being a Hive mind is a boon. But only for an Ai empire.

 

[tobias.mb]

1. And the Diplomacy Tradition is useless for Fanatical Purifiers. Also taking both Supremacy and Domination doesn't make all that much sense. Some Traditions are just very bad for certain playstyles.
1-4 All your suggestions are basically "make Hive-Minds work like everyone else". Hive-Minds were intended to be very different with their own unique mechanics.

 

[Curator Sapidianus]

1-4 All your suggestions are basically "make Hive-Minds work like everyone else". Hive-Minds were intended to be very different with their own unique mechanics.

Their unique mechanic is lacking a factions and happiness mechanics while being limited in almost every other department. Yes, that have no rebellions or revolts to worry about, but that's it. Their only real advantage, which is really an advantage only for newbie players and ai. They dont get any actually new mechanic.

 

[heliostellar]

No, I don't want them to work like everyone else. I just think that they are a blank slate and a little overly simplistic to play. Also, having an "immortal" ruler is kind of a meaningless point. The ruler has no attributes, so it really just shuts out that game mechanic.

I like the potential, but it feels like most of the mechanics are simply "shut off."

 

[Tha Pink Guy]

Honestly apart from the purging penalty a hive mind seems like a good start for a new player. Lots of mechanics shut off but a unique playstyle. When I played them the only thing I could describe them as is "boring," I'm sure it would be fun for some people but with so many options and mechanics basically gone it's no longer interesting for me.

 

[heliostellar]

Honestly apart from the purging penalty a hive mind seems like a good start for a new player. Lots of mechanics shut off but a unique playstyle. When I played them the only thing I could describe them as is "boring," I'm sure it would be fun for some people but with so many options and mechanics basically gone it's no longer interesting for me.

That's pretty much my point. I like them for RP purposes, but I feel like I am sacrificing so much of the complexity that makes the game interesting.

 

[Nirmara]

1. Harmony traditions - almost the entire tree is useless for hive minds because they have to do with either factions or unrest, both of which are not active game mechanics for Hive Minds. I would propose that the tree be slightly altered for hives. One idea would be to swap out "The Greater Good" with the ability to instantly assimilate non-hive pops (add Hive Mind trait).

The same can be said about diplomacy for Fanatic Purifier. At least hiveminds can benefit from most of the advantages given by Harmony.

2. Auto Purging is clunky - an empire with decent gene tech can easily and cheaply add the Hive Mind trait to conquered pops to add the pops into the collective. It costs no trait points. I would re-organize this and make it a Purge policy instead.

Being able to turn any regular pop into a member of the hive would create a balance issue since hivemind do not get unhappiness. A hivemind would therefore be able to quickly conquer it's neighbor without any consequence regarding it's internal stability. Also, hiveminds automatically accept pop from other hiveminds without any penalty making them very tempting rush target.

3. Lack of factions is a drawback - for a non-hive empire, happy factions produce a good amount of Influence. I think that hives should have some unique way to gain free Influence points too. It could be as simple as converting an otherwise useless tradition to provide a flat +1.0 point/month for instance.

Influence is not that of an issue for a hive mind since they do not have some of the influence requirements most regular empire have. They are also very limited regarding their edicts. The lack of happiness bonus is probably the main issue since it reduce science and energy production by a lot (mineral remain mostly on par with other non-slaver empires due to the consumer good cost reduction). Considering that happiness really come into play by mid-game, a hivemind can easily get a large enough empire by this point to remain competitive with it's neighbor resources wise and use their debris to keep up in military technology.

4. Non-hive pops should be usable. I get that Paradox wanted to make the hive feel more restrictive in some ways with this being one of them. However, it's very easy to assimilate already as I've said. I think it would be interesting to at least have the ability to use other pops as cattle.

Hiveminds can not have factions and therefore can't have any regular pops in their empire. Honestly, the auto-purge is not that big of a deal since it mean you can go on an early conquer spree with very little diplomatic consequences. You also get a ton of food by doing it or I you are lucky a compatible planets or if you are even more lucky a lots of free pops from an other hivemind. I went after primitives in my hivemind game just for the food and did not have to build a single extra farm for the first 50 years saving a lots of minerals in the process that went to feed my war machine.

Overall, I find hiveminds interesting as they are even if they do not fit my typical play-style.

Edit: If we exclude the traits issues that will surely get fix in one of the upcoming hotfix, hiveminds are in a relatively good spot. Of course, they could have had more flavor like specific traits or edicts, but it's not enough to make them boring to play. Hiveminds might just not fit your play-style and it's ok, not all playstyle have to in order to make you enjoy the game.

 

[heliostellar]

Being able to turn any regular pop into a member of the hive would create a balance issue since hivemind do not get unhappiness. A hivemind would therefore be able to quickly conquer it's neighbor without any consequence regarding it's internal stability. Also, hiveminds automatically accept pop from other hiveminds without any penalty making them very tempting rush target.

You already can turn any regular pop into a member of the hive. That's my point. It's easy to do, just make it more visible.

As for your point about Diplomacy being meaningless for Fanatical Purifiers... yes, that is true, but you can reform out of Fanatical Purifier. Also, I find it a little bizarre that out of all of the tradition trees the Harmony one has no use for a hive. Thematically, you would think it be the most compatible.

 

[Nirmara]

You already can turn any regular pop into a member of the hive. That's my point. It's easy to do, just make it more visible.

As for your point about Diplomacy being meaningless for Fanatical Purifiers... yes, that is true, but you can reform out of Fanatical Purifier. Also, I find it a little bizarre that out of all of the tradition trees the Harmony one has no use for a hive. Thematically, you would think it be the most compatible.

Genemodding does not require much more efforts (or clicks) to achieve than changing policy so I'm not sure it would be worth the codding efforts.

As for Harmony, a hiveminds is always harmonious since it can not have any dissent and therefore can not become more harmonious. Of course, it would be nice to have a tradition replacing harmony for hiveminds, but since you have six others traditions to fill, it's not that big of an issue until late into the game.

 

[Vincenzo_667]

I love the HiveMind mechanics, but as they stand right now they are way too OP. The pro's heavily outweight the con's in almost every aspect of the game.

 

[Doomsong]

Genemodding does not require much more efforts (or clicks) to achieve than changing policy so I'm not sure it would be worth the codding efforts.

As for Harmony, a hiveminds is always harmonious since it can not have any dissent and therefore can not become more harmonious. Of course, it would be nice to have a tradition replacing harmony for hiveminds, but since you have six others traditions to fill, it's not that big of an issue until late into the game.

Something like this if hive mind. I think it could be moded.

Adopting tree reduces resettlement cost by x%

Greater good: Happines generated by buildings is convered in to overall production bonus equal to half of happines effect generated by said building.
Paradise dome: Unchanged

Kinship: Enables breeding ground edict
Breeding ground enables species on a planet to bypass goverment level population control setings. Reduces growth time.

Other option: Give hive mind breeding ground edict. Enable breeding ground only population control option.