Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

what features? everything besides few civics, 1 hivemind and psi is a free feature.

Hivemind is a paid feature. As are ascension perks which includes all three of the ascension paths and megastructures. As part of that ascension path, the new "shroud" mechanics for PSI is a paid feature. Most types of purging and slavery are paid features. Native indoctrination is a paid feature. And Of course as you're aware the three advanced civics are paid features.

Actually, a lot of the funnest stuff is behind the expansion pay wall and the free stuff is mostly improvements and refinements of existing systems. For free you get the ethics reworks, and the species rights that comes with the ending of micromanaging slavery.

Not complaining mind you, developers got to get paid too. But the expansion comes with alot of features.

 

[Tavior]

You know what, you're right. Sorta, I mean, you're still making generalizations about future content based on partial information without any real experience about how the mechanics will interact, they're weak arguments that a developer will find easy to reject based simply on what you don't know. But then again so are the people arguing with you so I'm not gonna ask you to hold yourself to a higher standard.

I will point out that keeping yourself focused on what you want and why you want it would be better feedback and more likely to get results. Making counter points in ignorance to refute arguments made in ignorance is likely a waste of time, and focusing on the actual goal of bringing about change would lead to better points.

As an example, Caspoi points out that two of the other three ascension perks are restricted by ethos, which is true but for reasons below not particularly relevant. Your response is to argue that the flavor text of Hivemind already indicates the existence of PSI, and to argue that a materialist can dip his toe into spiritualism long enough to get psionics and then take it right out again. The first argument is not going to be convincing because the developers you are trying to sway already know that and either don't care or like it that way. The second argument is not going to be convincing because it may not even be true, it probably is but we don't actually know that you retain psionics if you cease spiritualism, or if having psionics doesn't lock you into spiritualism but even if it is true, it's not really relevant.

A better argument here would be one that doesn't get mired down in possible mechanics, but instead keeps true to your original point. Other empires, with ethos, have to choose spiritualism to ascend psionically. Hiveminds are locked out of having an ethos, so they can not make that pick. It's an apples and oranges comparison. The hive is sentient, its guiding conscience has beliefs, it can be a spiritualist or materialist in every way except mechanically. The hivemind not selecting ethos in empire creation is because the hive lacks factions, ethics divergence and the possibility of rebellion. The majority of the ethos mechanics don't apply to a hive and that is why the hive are locked out of ethos and that's it.

And on that vein, hiveminds are already locked out of one of the defining traits of an empire. Your hive loses a mass of identity and character when the game refuses to let you decide if your hive is pacifistic, spiritualistic, materialistic, xenophobic or even xenophillic. They let your hive engage in diplomacy, your hive can become a vassal, or keep vassal states, don't try to incorporate them though... that gets messy. Your hive can form defensive pacts and friendships. Your hive can even become president of the "Just Compact" one day. But you're locked out of being able to play your hive as materialistic, all that flavor gone. So why would you use the loss of all that flavor early on to justify the loss of flavor even further on? It's just not satisfying game design.

Which two ascension peaks are restricted by Ethos? Primarily because those two, synthetic and PSI I am guessing, are loosely afflicted with an etho. I wouldn't call that restricted by Etho per se. More like soft check if you can dump the Etho supporting it.

Sure there has been arguments about the mechanic and other nuance that might get overlooked. I haven't seen anything that might make Hive Mind a great choice that normal empires can do better fun-wise that is. I meant if you are playing as Hive Mind and want to push psi jump tech to try to lure "The unbidden" crisis then not much you can do. That is kind of restrictions I don't like. I meant how else are you going to "get their attention"? Ditto about causing AI rebellions by researching AI.

So I rather have more choice later down the road instead of locking completely on biological ascension right now like they are doing both lore/mechanic wise. If it was only mechanic, perhaps that would be easier to back peddle. No point in dwelling in the past.

I am still saying it is better to have more choices as long that restriction make sense with respect to gameplay, balance, and most important fun. Right now Hive Mind don't feel that way in my opinion. Sure they could end up being OP and fun. But I can't make that judgement call until I spent some time with them. So all I can do is figure out how they feel like based on what I know.

 

[Caspoi]

I should probably say that I am not completely against the idea of hive minds being able to follow other paths of ascencion (though I stand by the developers that more player choice and freedom is not necessarily a good thing), I just don't think that this would be fitting of the current hive mind. However if they were to give more varieties such as one that has been created and uphold by cybernetic implants rather than psionic telepathy (which could then take the synthetic ascencion path) or a "looser" hive mind where people still have a fair amount of individuality and free will (who could take the psionic ascencion) I would support it. I just don't think that the current one fit either thematically (fluffwise) or mechanically to the other ascencion paths and I don't think that hive minds are meant to be a "blank slate" with which you can do anything.

 

[jazzglands]

I think they don't want to write entire hive-mind-flavored events for those ascension paths.

And honestly who could blame them?

 

[jazzglands]

I am not approaching this problem with mind set of I "want Borg, MorningLightMountain, Formics, and whatsoever else" in Stellaris.

Good, 'cause all of that would be easy to mod in as hivemind civics, assuming the game doesn't ship with "Start with the Cyborg trait" or "Get the bonuses/restrictions of fanatical purifiers but with a hivemend ethos" or "have some kind of mechanical difference that MorningLightMountain would actually have had."

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I think they don't want to write entire hive-mind-flavored events for those ascension paths.

And honestly who could blame them?

Might could be. We do know that synthetic ascension is not instantaneous, and people have been asking for faction based conflict, from spiritualists getting grumpy all the way up to a civil war brought about by spiritualists and egalitarians trying to stand in the way of your great and glorious progress, to to be a part of it since people have first found out.

 

[Cannes]

@Wiz

Help me understand why Hive Mind are essentially locked only to the biological ascension route?

I know that right now tool tip says Hive Mind can NOT pick endgame synthetic or PSI paths.

I rather take that restriction out and allow more flexible interactive with non-Hive Mind Empires.

After all there are plenty of non-biological ascension sci-fi examples to draw from.


MorningLightMountain, Replicators, Berserker, and Borg for the synthetic route and they both are perfectly capable of having non-native pop integrate into their own empire. None of them were even remotely biological inclined!


Starcraft's if somewhat artifact Zerg, Formics, Tyranid, Vorlon from Babylon 5, and "Imperium of Mankind and chaos god" of 40k warhammer are to various degree of example of PSI inclined Hive Mind even if they don't quite meet the definition of in-game Hive Mind.


The unbidden for all we know could be either biological or psi inclined Hive Mind. It is quite hard to tell.


Since you can augment other non-Hive Mind with both PSI and cybernetic regardless if you are actually Hive Mind yourself. I don't really see any reason why Hive Mind are locked firmly into biological ascension paths to be frank.

The only remote plausible reason I can come up with after thinking on it for a few weeks is that PSI/Cybernetic bonus put together with Hive Mind's bonus are too strong? Only problem?

That is also converse true for biological ascension. So back to square one, Why only biological ascension endgame for Hive Mind?

MorningLightMountain is totally biological. And nowhere near any kind of ascension in the books.

 

[jazzglands]

Might could be. We do know that synthetic ascension is not instantaneous, and people have been asking for faction based conflict, from spiritualists getting grumpy all the way up to a civil war brought about by spiritualists and egalitarians trying to stand in the way of your great and glorious progress, to to be a part of it since people have first found out.

I definitely hope they add stuff like that in. Half the fun of Banks (as described in the DD's) is dealing with whatever your whiny needy pops think of you. Perhaps for all 3 ascension paths, if you only have the first perk you can get thematic events about how your society is having natural growing pains as they approach their next stage of evolution.

It would be awesome, and I hope to add some stuff like that to an event mod, if Banks didn't include it.

 

[Tavior]

MorningLightMountain is totally biological. And nowhere near any kind of ascension in the books.

No I didn't said they were at least not in book. Just that they are an example of a Hive Mind that DOESN'T have nor use PSI to communicate to their drones.

And no they aren't totally biological because they (during the starflyer war era at least) used implants connected to their sensor stalks so they can communicate to trillions of drones far away from HQ in real time. Sorta like GPS/Phone network we have only transmitting thoughts instead of bytes. It is only during the Stone/Farming age to pre-electric age that MorningLightMountain was indeed 100% pure biological until they discovered the joy of rapid blitzing each other with long distance communication wires. Afterward they were far far more likely to use cybernetic augments. In fact there were LOT of morninglightmountain motile that wore force shield exosuit. It wouldn't make sense for the immotile themselves to wander out on the battlefield with their solder to give out orders does it?

Could they have gone full synthetic given enough reason and time? Perhaps. Perhaps not.