Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique

[Tavior]

Now, I get it, you want to have an argument about how Hivemind should be allowed any ascension perk, and you want to have that argument right now while we're still waiting on information. But I'm not going to have an opinion on this and my only contributions here will be to explain that while it may appear, on partial information, that this decision was made exclusively for flavor purposes. We really don't know yet why the developers made this decision and so arguing for its overturn based on it being exclusively for flavor is not likely to be productive.

I am afraid you are missing the whole picture.

Would you rather that I shut up and say nothing about how something might be not fun for me to play? Or have a meaningful conversation about what it should be like? Mostly for dev to see that there is a desire for it to go in a different direction.

Sure I am making conjunctures on little information that may be still up in the air. It doesn't change that I am worried that Hive Mind may end up like a feature that no one want to use. CK 2 Aztec invader anyone?

It might not even end up like that and be a good fun. Who know?

someone said that they became hive-mind-synthetics. so probably it's better suited for synth ascension path. not hivemind start

As far I am aware it may not be possible to switch your government over to Hive Mind. So we will see. Otherwise it might be a little overpower to instant remove a faction about to break off from your empire by convert to Hive Mind.

But even if you don't START with spiritualist, you still have to BECOME spiritualist to go for Psionics. The point still stands, as Hive Minds can't become spiritualist, since they do not use ethics.

Without knowing the exact requirement to research PSI Theory (one of the requirement to unlock PSI ascension path) it is pointless to talk about it anymore. I will instead reference back to this following quote directly from the PSI dev diary.

The only difference is that psionics can now only be researched by Spiritualist empires, though it is entirely possible for an empire that does not start out as Spiritualist to acquire psionics by shifting their empire ethics to Spiritualist over the course of the game, and once you start down the Psionic path it is possible to continue along it even if you stop being Spiritualist. This Spiritualist requirement applies whether or not you own Utopia.

I never said that it was because of biological reasons that spiritualists alone can get the psionic ascencion, so I don't see how the fact that you can change your ethos is "proof" that I am wrong, you do need to be spiritualistic, which the hive minds are not.

I will again reference to Wiz's quote above.

I believe the lack of ethic is instead reflect back to the player's choice as the Hive Mind's "ethic". I meant after all you don't have a "civilization without moral".



If they ever do introduce Cybernetics and PSI ascension paths to Hive Mind, sure they will have to change thing around. Otherwise you can't roleplay a non-biological ascension Hive Mind and that sounds boring to me. Sure they are trying to bring flavor to Hive Mind but I think it destroy the varieties and likely don't have enough content to make up for it.

I meant you can play a tyranny spiritualist dictatorship or pacifist benevolent research republic or whatever you want to. More variety is better than flavor in my opinion.

 

[Azuraal]

Utiopia doesn't add hiveminds, it adds a specific type of hivemind.
It's a natural hivemind with a single concusness, and there is no reason to believe that we won't get artificial hiveminds in later dlc,
for instance synthetic borg-like hivemind or loose psionic hivemind like protoss.

 

[Caspoi]

I will again reference to Wiz's quote above.

I believe the lack of ethic is instead reflect back to the player's choice as the Hive Mind's "ethic". I meant after all you don't have a "civilization without moral".

And with that quote you still miss the mark and do not adress what I said.

 

[Riftwalker]

Starcraft's if somewhat artifact Zerg, Formics, Tyranid, Vorlon from Babylon 5, and "Imperium of Mankind and chaos god" of 40k warhammer are to various degree of example of PSI inclined Hive Mind even if they don't quite meet the definition of in-game Hive Mind.

I just feel like mentioning, Hive minds use psionics to stay connected to each other, the ones you describe are also much more inclined to tear them selves apart to be reformed as something else.

 

[Meathim]

This thread's been a fun read actually.

Personally I don't mind Hive minds being locked like that. The point is to make a different gameplay, and that they shirley are. Will it be fun? Ask again in a month or two.

 

[Slynx]

It doesn't change that I am worried that Hive Mind may end up like a feature that no one want to use.

i will want to use hivemind. i'm going to buy Utopia mainly because of Hivemind... and Shroud. if not these features i'd probably stayed on 1.4 (cuz i don't really like the changes to the collectivists...though some of the changes are good)

 

[Tavior]

Utiopia doesn't add hiveminds, it adds a specific type of hivemind.
It's a natural hivemind with a single concusness, and there is no reason to believe that we won't get artificial hiveminds in later dlc,
for instance synthetic borg-like hivemind or loose psionic hivemind like protoss.

Then why hardcoded it at the beginning of game and give out lore reason that they can't use PSI and don't want to use AI. AI law forced to outlawed in additional to restriction to cybernetic ascension path.

I know I can mod it out maybe but why go to all of that effort if you are going to backpeddle and add in other styles of Hive Mind.

 

[Tavior]

And with that quote you still miss the mark and do not adress what I said.

I took a second look on your comments and I didn't see anything I missed.

Perhaps because you said something about "biological reasons that spiritualists alone". I didn't see the need to address that as I didn't mention anything toward that myself.

All I am saying Hive Mind should have choices of going down either 3 paths, remember they are all mutually exclusive to each other, and comes with pro/con that should made them ideally balanced.

At least to me it shouldn't even be a thing to be locked out of choices. Making choice of which ascension path to go down is one such choices.

 

[Caspoi]

I took a second look on your comments and I didn't see anything I missed.

Perhaps because you said something about "biological reasons that spiritualists alone". I didn't see the need to address that as I didn't mention anything toward that myself.

All I am saying Hive Mind should have choices of going down either 3 paths, remember they are all mutually exclusive to each other, and comes with pro/con that should made them ideally balanced.

At least to me it shouldn't even be a thing to be locked out of choices. Making choice of which ascension path to go down is one such choices.

The point is that whether you start as spiritualist or change to and from it does in no way challange what I said and you know what, hive minds can'r be spiritualists.

 

[Tavior]

I just feel like mentioning, Hive minds use psionics to stay connected to each other, the ones you describe are also much more inclined to tear them selves apart to be reformed as something else.

Let me re-state the steps to start down PSI ascension in case you missed something here.

First requirement is to have ethics, spiritualist, to unlock the only PSI research available in utopia 1.5.

Second requirement is to have that tech finished and unlock enough ascension peak to pick both PSI ascension.

The only thing Hive MInd missing and can't get right now is spiritualist ethic but they DO have the PSI telepathy. So in a sense they already meet the second requirement unofficially by having latent PSI.

Tell me I am wrong here. But it is not a HUGE leap of faith to skip down to third step and unlock that PSI ascension peak.

 

[Tavior]

i will want to use hivemind. i'm going to buy Utopia mainly because of Hivemind... and Shroud. if not these features i'd probably stayed on 1.4 (cuz i don't really like the changes to the collectivists...though some of the changes are good)

There are other features in Utopia I am much looking forward to beside Hive Mind. It is not a "don't buy until they fix it!" or anything like that at least for me.

I am primarily looking forward to ethics reworked, tradition even if somewhat flawed, ascension peaks, and superstructures. Hive Mind? Not so much appealing to me there.

The point is that whether you start as spiritualist or change to and from it does in no way challange what I said and you know what, hive minds can'r be spiritualists.

You still have not addressed the "possession of Telepathy vs true PSI" component. Because how do you measure a species PSI range if having telepathy isn't enough to progress up the scale? Until you do I don't see the point to talking to you.

At this point you are repeating yourself.

 

[Caspoi]

Let me re-state the steps to start down PSI ascension in case you missed something here.

First requirement is to have ethics, spiritualist, to unlock the only PSI research available in utopia 1.5.

Second requirement is to have that tech finished and unlock enough ascension peak to pick both PSI ascension.

The only thing Hive MInd missing and can't get right now is spiritualist ethic but they DO have the PSI telepathy. So in a sense they already meet the second requirement unofficially by having latent PSI.

Tell me I am wrong here. But it is not a HUGE leap of faith to skip down to third step and unlock that PSI ascension peak.

But in theori everyone in Stellaris (at least of the standard biological pops) has latent psi potential that can be unlocked if they go down the spiritualist path and while the hive minds have some telepathy in place that would not be enough to skip the existing reuirements and many pages have already been done debunking the idea that this telepathy is like the psionics of the psionic ascencion path, in fact it is entirely possible that because of the lack of true sentience among the hive mind pops they can't go access those kinds of powers.

 

[Tavior]

But in theori everyone in Stellaris (at least of the standard biological pops) has latent psi potential that can be unlocked if they go down the spiritualist path and while the hive minds have some telepathy in place that would not be enough to skip the existing reuirements and many pages have already been done debunking the idea that this telepathy is like the psionics of the psionic ascencion path, in fact it is entirely possible that because of the lack of true sentience among the hive mind pops they can't go access those kinds of powers.

Lets see.

Hive Mind are biological creature themselves so they already check that box.

Perhaps the spiritualist isn't a true check box more like a better chance to unlock the research itself if you have more spiritualist in your non-Hive Mind empire soft check. The only thing barring Hive Mind from going further down is they lack Ethics on an individualist level. You have to keep in mind that ethics means definite the basic set of principle on how to act in a certain situation. If Hive Mind doesn't have Ethic then what they do have instead?

Third requirement is something Hive Mind already have.

Where is this pages upon pages debunking telepathy vs true PSI. I am only asking because I yet have to see any debate on it myself. Outside of this thread that is.

You are still wrong. It is not lack of drones' conscience that would block a Hive Mind from going down this route. The Hive Mind conscience itself "might" want to PSI ascension to move to a bigger medium for it's conscience to resident in. MUCH bigger than trillions of drones can hold. The drones might stay drones while the conscience goes body-less PSI ascension.

 

[Slynx]

Tell me I am wrong here.

you are wrong here. (you asked)

they DO have the PSI telepathy.

it's not combat telepathy of spiritualists... it's only their way to control drones. so it's again "fluff vs mechanics"

If Hive Mind doesn't have Ethic then what they do have instead?

they have no ethic cuz it's only 1 creature. not few billions like in a case of normal races.

Hive Mind? Not so much appealing to me there.

then don't buy dlc. you'll miss purifiers and a shroud only. not a big deal

 

[Caspoi]

Lets see.

Hive Mind are biological creature themselves so they already check that box.

Perhaps the spiritualist isn't a true check box more like a better chance to unlock the research itself if you have more spiritualist in your non-Hive Mind empire soft check. The only thing barring Hive Mind from going further down is they lack Ethics on an individualist level. You have to keep in mind that ethics means definite the basic set of principle on how to act in a certain situation. If Hive Mind doesn't have Ethic then what they do have instead?

Third requirement is something Hive Mind already have.

Where is this pages upon pages debunking telepathy vs true PSI. I am only asking because I yet have to see any debate on it myself. Outside of this thread that is.

You are still wrong. It is not lack of drones' conscience that would block a Hive Mind from going down this route. The Hive Mind conscience itself "might" want to PSI ascension to move to a bigger medium for it's conscience to resident in. MUCH bigger than trillions of drones can hold. The drones might stay drones while the conscience goes body-less PSI ascension.

And I never denied that they were, just that they start of well adapted to it because of their status of a hive mind.

The hive mind ethos.

What third requirement.

I meant this thread.

You say that I am wrong and then go on with completely baseless speculation about what a hive mind can or can not do, good job. and I find the idea that the collective coniciousness would be able to ascend if the drones that are it's components do not very far fetched, not to mention that it would mean that you have hardly affected the game mechanics.

 

[Tavior]

you are wrong here. (you asked)

Erm nothing to say really. Either they have a PSI talent to build on or don't at all.

Lets take a different example to show what I meant. Synthetics have no biological to work with PSI at all.

Hive Mind is already "one step" in the door further along than Synthetics. The door being PSI ascension.

it's not combat telepathy of spiritualists... it's only their way to control drones. so it's again "fluff vs mechanics"

Again either they have it or don't. It doesn't make sense to be half way there and can't progress upward. One of the first biological talent to comes to fruit after PSI theory is telepathy. So really what is exactly blocking Hive Mind from acquiring it and enhance it's own drones?

they have no ethic cuz it's only 1 creature. not few billions like in a case of normal races.

It is still a biolgoical creature with Telepathy and already meet two requirements somewhat better than other civilization at game start.

then don't buy dlc. you'll miss purifiers and a shroud only. not a big deal

I am excited about other contents beside Hive Mind. So why are you telling me to not buy DLC?

 

[Tavior]

And I never denied that they were, just that they start of well adapted to it because of their status of a hive mind.

The hive mind ethos.

What third requirement.

I meant this thread.

You say that I am wrong and then go on with completely baseless speculation about what a hive mind can or can not do, good job. and I find the idea that the collective coniciousness would be able to ascend if the drones that are it's components do not very far fetched, not to mention that it would mean that you have hardly affected the game mechanics.

Hive Mind ethic does exist. It is an extend of the player's choice. It is a slap in the face if they are limiting your choice as a player. If I as a Hive Mind want to go cybernetic ascension then I should be able to. Not that complicated when it comes to lack of in-game play etho vs actual ethics.

Did you not read? Unlocking ascension slots.

I have yet to see any actual debunking related to Stellaris' Hive Mind Telepathy vs true PSI. Most of what I saw were Starcraft amon's zerg being potential PSI ascension debunking and they never brought a strong argument against it. Primarily because Starcraft uses PSI very very loosely. I meant they have devices that can emit PSI mental image to other creatures. Overmind can feels the PSI, void energy, used by Dark Templar despite having little to no PSI itself etc... Breaking pretty much every convention that Stellaris set on itself with respect to PSI/Synthetics/Bio.

 

[Caspoi]

Hive Mind ethic does exist. It is an extend of the player's choice. It is a slap in the face if they are limiting your choice as a player. If I as a Hive Mind want to go cybernetic ascension then I should be able to. Not that complicated when it comes to lack of in-game play etho vs actual ethics.

Did you not read? Unlocking ascension slots.

I have yet to see any actual debunking related to Stellaris' Hive Mind Telepathy vs true PSI. Most of what I saw were Starcraft amon's zerg being potential PSI ascension debunking and they never brought a strong argument against it. Primarily because Starcraft uses PSI very very loosely. I meant they have devices that can emit PSI mental image to other creatures. Overmind can feels the PSI, void energy, used by Dark Templar despite having little to no PSI itself etc... Breaking pretty much every convention that Stellaris set on itself with respect to PSI/Synthetics/Bio.

Your "slap in the face" is something you will have to accept, paradox don't want you to be able to do anything you like regardless of ethos composition, it is part of their effort to make every ethos unique, and I dispute that you should be able to do as want.

You only mentioned two requirements.

It has been mentioned again and again, even when Wiz first revealed the hive minds, the telepathy that creates the hive mind is not the same as the shroud stuff.

 

[Slynx]

Either they have a PSI talent to build on or don't at all.

they don't. what they have - is fluff description. what they need - certain tech and maybe flag.

So really what is exactly blocking Hive Mind from acquiring it and enhance it's own drones?

lack of thics required to draw it in a pool of technologies.

already meet two requirements

false

I am excited about other contents beside Hive Mind. So why are you telling me to not buy DLC?

what features? everything besides few civics, 1 hivemind and psi is a free feature.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I am afraid you are missing the whole picture.

Would you rather that I shut up and say nothing about how something might be not fun for me to play? Or have a meaningful conversation about what it should be like? Mostly for dev to see that there is a desire for it to go in a different direction.

You know what, you're right. Sorta, I mean, you're still making generalizations about future content based on partial information without any real experience about how the mechanics will interact, they're weak arguments that a developer will find easy to reject based simply on what you don't know. But then again so are the people arguing with you so I'm not gonna ask you to hold yourself to a higher standard.

Of course you should make your voice heard regarding what you want as a fan invested into this game, and it's up to the developers whether they can satisfy you or not. I will point out that keeping yourself focused on what you want and why you want it would be better feedback and more likely to get results. Making counter points in ignorance to refute arguments made in ignorance is likely a waste of time, and focusing on the actual goal of bringing about change would lead to better points.

As an example, Caspoi points out that two of the other three ascension perks are restricted by ethos, which is true but for reasons below not particularly relevant. Your response is to argue that the flavor text of Hivemind already indicates the existence of PSI, and to argue that a materialist can dip his toe into spiritualism long enough to get psionics and then take it right out again. The first argument is not going to be convincing because the developers you are trying to sway already know that and either don't care or like it that way. The second argument is not going to be convincing because it may not even be true, it probably is but we don't actually know that you retain psionics if you cease spiritualism, or if having psionics doesn't lock you into spiritualism but even if it is true, it's not really relevant.

A better argument here would be one that doesn't get mired down in possible mechanics, but instead keeps true to your original point. Other empires, with ethos, have to choose spiritualism to ascend psionically. Hiveminds are locked out of having an ethos, so they can not make that pick. It's an apples and oranges comparison. The hive is sentient, its guiding conscience has beliefs, it can be a spiritualist or materialist in every way except mechanically. The hivemind not selecting ethos in empire creation is because the hive lacks factions, ethics divergence and the possibility of rebellion. The majority of the ethos mechanics don't apply to a hive and that is why the hive are locked out of ethos and that's it.

And on that vein, hiveminds are already locked out of one of the defining traits of an empire. Your hive loses a mass of identity and character when the game refuses to let you decide if your hive is pacifistic, spiritualistic, materialistic, xenophobic or even xenophillic. They let your hive engage in diplomacy, your hive can become a vassal, or keep vassal states, don't try to incorporate them though... that gets messy. Your hive can form defensive pacts and friendships. Your hive can even become president of the "Just Compact" one day. But you're locked out of being able to play your hive as materialistic, all that flavor gone. So why would you use the loss of all that flavor early on to justify the loss of flavor even further on? It's just not satisfying game design.