You're forgetting that synth leaders are immortal
Then it's been quite heavily reworked.
In 1.4.x they have an average lifespan of about 150 years.
Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique
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Then it's been quite heavily reworked.
In 1.4.x they have an average lifespan of about 150 years.
Synthetic might mean you spend less influence moving wrong pop (miner specialist on a science oriented planet) over to where they would been more useful. We will have to wait and see on this I suppose.
Not sure if PSI has any advantages over biological ascension. But with the major reworked PSI system it is safe to say it will not be quite same as it is now.
But I think it is safe to say that in ideal world all 3 would be balanced with drawbacks and advantages.
Not sure if PSI has any advantages over biological ascension. But with the major reworked PSI system it is safe to say it will not be quite same as it is now.
But I think it is safe to say that in ideal world all 3 would be balanced with drawbacks and advantages.
Look like there is only one week left until the patch note is posted going by this DD.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...diary-66-graphics-interface-in-banks.1007122/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...diary-66-graphics-interface-in-banks.1007122/
There has been very little revealed of how Hive Mind plays/works thus far. That could easily change with the teasers between now and release time.
I will say this. I sincerely hope I turn out to be wrong about Hive Mind being the least worked on out of all features in Utopia. Heck I believe it was originally nothing planned to add a Hive Mind until after a few DD.
For instance, this screenshot of ethic rework from December 6, 2016. Notice there is nothing in middle.
Then later in February 23, 2017. All of sudden there was this Hive Mind ethic pick. I believe it was teased bit earlier than that. I can't be brother to go find the very first screenshot that has the Hive Mind ethic.
This shows that they may had very little time to iterative between Dec and Feb up to now.
Best case? They were working on it before they announced Bank 1.5. Maybe even before Dec 2016?
Worst case? They only had at most two months to work on it. Feb 2 to April 6th.
Out of all issues that may come out on release. I am most worried about differential between multiplies of Hive Mind. The only option you have to from what I seen so far for making your Hive Mind unique is thus far limited to civic choices and Ascension peak. Integrating non-Hive Mind into your empire using gene modifying doesn't count since you can add/remove traits at will.
For example, if you a tile with mine. You want trait to boost mineral productively. There isn't much room for making your empire pop unique so that to me doesn't count.
You can't have AI population because AI is forced to outlawed anyway.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...diary-66-graphics-interface-in-banks.1007122/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...diary-66-graphics-interface-in-banks.1007122/
There has been very little revealed of how Hive Mind plays/works thus far. That could easily change with the teasers between now and release time.
I will say this. I sincerely hope I turn out to be wrong about Hive Mind being the least worked on out of all features in Utopia. Heck I believe it was originally nothing planned to add a Hive Mind until after a few DD.
For instance, this screenshot of ethic rework from December 6, 2016. Notice there is nothing in middle.
Then later in February 23, 2017. All of sudden there was this Hive Mind ethic pick. I believe it was teased bit earlier than that. I can't be brother to go find the very first screenshot that has the Hive Mind ethic.
This shows that they may had very little time to iterative between Dec and Feb up to now.
Best case? They were working on it before they announced Bank 1.5. Maybe even before Dec 2016?
Worst case? They only had at most two months to work on it. Feb 2 to April 6th.
Out of all issues that may come out on release. I am most worried about differential between multiplies of Hive Mind. The only option you have to from what I seen so far for making your Hive Mind unique is thus far limited to civic choices and Ascension peak. Integrating non-Hive Mind into your empire using gene modifying doesn't count since you can add/remove traits at will.
For example, if you a tile with mine. You want trait to boost mineral productively. There isn't much room for making your empire pop unique so that to me doesn't count.
You can't have AI population because AI is forced to outlawed anyway.
don't know if it was said before (have't read all the comments, sorry)
but though i'd like to have a psionic or synth hiveminds...i think the reason they're restricted to those ascension paths are conflicting mechanics. at least it looks as a reasonable excuse to prohibit such interesting ideas.
but though i'd like to have a psionic or synth hiveminds...i think the reason they're restricted to those ascension paths are conflicting mechanics. at least it looks as a reasonable excuse to prohibit such interesting ideas.
Except there are not any existing 1.4.1 mechanics that I am aware of that would conflict with Hive mind mechanics.
PSI just add different possible traits your leaders can get for the most part.
Synthetics just lets you uplift your entire civilization to be purely synthetics. It doesn't invalid anything mechanics-wise to Hive Mind trait population. Perhaps they don't have a good framework for allowing Hive Mind and synthetic at the same time? Seem somewhat pathetic if you ask me.
More likely that they just ran out of time to do more for either PSI or Synthetic Hive mind stuff.
judging by the description there may be in 1.5
like ability for psi pops to awaken their potential (may conflict cuz all hivemind's pops are mindless drones) or interraction with a shroud. or synthetic problems with self-awareness(events and etc). in case of synthetics (if there are no problemsat all) it may be too OP. gaining synth's boosts without any downsides)
anyway..it was just a hypothesis.
I will reference back to this screenshot of a psi leader. As far I am aware Hive Mind leader doesn't have any other trait other than normal ones you would expected. So they don't conflict as far I know.
Sure maybe "The shroud" event chain might get broke somewhere and somehow.
Another example of the first "The Flesh is weak" ascension peak bonus traits.
You are forgetting that Hive Mind are LOCKED to only biological ascension if they want any end-game ascension peaks.
Ideally all 3 should be equal balance-wise. So it shouldn't matter if one of them have "OP bonus" because they all comes with drawbacks. For example if you go full synthetic, one of the Fallen Empire will automatic go to war with you in additional to spiritualist diplomacy penalties.
I think PSI's drawback is that they can attract unbidden to the galaxy. Either directly or indirectly by using PSI jump FTL tech.
Biological ascension lets you modify your own population to fit your needs. I am not sure if they have any drawbacks of their own. Perhaps chance to attract the Prethoryn Swarm to the galaxy?
or it's just a generic and boring ascension path.
first one is ok. bet the second one... probably not.
we knoe that hiveminds will have separate set of..hm.. ethics? maybe there is something more. we don't know yet.
It shouldn't be since you can take away negative traits and add whatsoever trait you want. If you had repungent trait with biological ascension you can erase it. Put in bonus to science instead.
The thing is that we already went over this. Hive Mind can communicate their thoughts over network like computer do. The only reason they have said so far is that Hive Mind communicate on a "pseudo PSI but not same as other PSI" innate ability. Which is already flimsy when you think of civilization that may have gotten more progress through cybernetic means.
In fact there is a civic pick that allow you to start with cybernetic exosuit. So why not Hive Mind too?
No different sets of ethics. If you pick Hive Mind it cost 3 ethic points and prohibit you from picking another ethic.
The only thing we do know for sure is that Hive Mind has their own separate list of civics, of which we know precious little about beside their names. I am afraid it may end up not making enough of a difference between Hive Mind Govts.
Trying to form an opinion about this... nope. Didn't happen sorry.
Either they made the restriction strictly for flavor reasons, in which case I agree with you. Or they made the restriction for mechanical reasons that I don't yet know about, in which case I very likely disagree with you. Until I have a better grasp of the mechanics in Utopia and how they interact, I just can't form a worthwhile opinion.
Either they made the restriction strictly for flavor reasons, in which case I agree with you. Or they made the restriction for mechanical reasons that I don't yet know about, in which case I very likely disagree with you. Until I have a better grasp of the mechanics in Utopia and how they interact, I just can't form a worthwhile opinion.
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that's logic.
not game mechanics
then it's the wrong word. i were talking about the thing on the right (where you also pick purifiers)
Which is why I was disappointed when they didn't even show a single moment of Hive Mind in today Dev Game (mostly more of the same starfish dictatorship vs republic from last week).
The only thing I have seen so far shows that it was made for flavor reason. From the original dev that introduced Hive Mind Govt. There seem to be no apparent mechanic-wise restriction if we are going by their word that they didn't want Hive Mind to be able to pick non-biological ascension paths. Hence the reason for my posting this very same thread.
Again going by the wiz post I quote above. It seem that they are going for "more flavor" over "mechanics" reason. More variety and more choices doesn't destroy flavor at all. On the other coin limiting choices do destroy flavor up to a degree.
IE where is my Borg wanna-be Hive Mind? Nope only biological allowed. Ditto for PSI Hive Mind.
Yes that is called civics.
The flavor text they gave us indicated it couldn't be done for flavor reasons. But they're not going to give us a look under the hood of an, at the time, incomplete expansion. So that hivemind comes with unique mechanics does need to be taken into possible consideration.
Just as an example, the habitability minimum for colonizing is 40%. Now any other empire will hesitate to plant a colony on a 40% habitability world because the happiness penalties will create problems but a hive has no happiness penalties and so would have no reason not to plant that colony. Off climate worlds have a base habitability of 20% and "The Flesh is Weak" grants a habitability bonus of 20%. So by unlocking the first tier of Synthetic Ascension, you can place content, ethos uniform colonies on every planet in the galaxy.
Is that over powered? I don't know yet. Is that the only problem? I don't know yet.
Consider another possible example. We already know synthetic ascension will not be immediate, that it will require a project. It's not unheard of for long, significant, game changing projects in a Paradox game to come with twists and turns that require the player to play. What if such a thing exists for Synthetic Ascension in the form of a delightful civil war. What if quelling your naturalists and forcing their conversion, coming to terms with them and carving out a place in your society, or forcefully expelling them turns out to be an important part of the Synthetic Ascension?
If so, it would make no sense for a hivemind at all, and if the diplomatic malus of plan A and C, or the efficiency loss of plan B and C are calculated into the balance of Synthetic Ascension, bypassing those negative effects may very well be overpowered.
I am already aware of the 40% colonization everywhere Hive Mind has going on for a while. But you seem to forget a few things.
On the flip side. Biological ascension Hive Mind can already do this. How? If you start out as an Ocean/wet planet. To raise the 20% or lower habitat floor. All they have to do is "hijack or seize by force or lure" citizen that like dry/ice climate and modified them to have Hive Mind.
All of sudden everything is at a minimum 60% to you. Ice/Wet/Dry means nothing to a such expansion-oriented Hive Mind. I think you can also biological modified your own population to like different climate already if I recall right.
If you don't believe me. Take a quick look at this picture in spoiler tag and look at the planet preference. Notice how it has yellow outline just like something you could click to change.
Is having a flat 40% habitat under synthetic Hive Mind still powerful? I think not when you look at biological ascension as a whole.
I am not sure if PSI Hive Mind can do the same. Perhaps yes perhaps not.
Do you want to still call synthetic Hive Mind OP on paper? Sure feel free to. I still think biological ascension is much more stronger than you believe it is. Definitely way better than 1.4.1 currently is.
Do note that this is not unique restrictions for hive minds, everyone who is not a spiritualist can't use the psionic ascencion so you are arguing that they should be the exception to the rule.
You do realize they already have PSI right? The "PSI to communicate between drones but not quite true PSI" thingy.
Furthermore you are wrong. PSI is not limited to spiritualist either.
IE if I start out game as materialist and shift my ethic over to spiritualist through faction and other actions. You will unlock PSI despite starting without spiritualist.
On the flip side you can start as a spiritualist and unlock PSI then basically shift your entire ethic over to Xenophobe and fanatic materialist while still having PSI unlocked.
Here is an example of a mid-game Human with 10% of everything. The three points you get at game start doesn't allow you to have 10% of every ethics.
Give the below link another read.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/
I quoted my response in advance, I hope you appreciate the thoughtfulness.
Seizing an alien population by force has certain requirements. Getting an alien population to move in willingly has certain requirements. Converting that alien population to the habitability you require has requirements. Are these requirements steep enough or compelling enough as gameplay to justify not simply allowing them to be sidestepped? I don't know yet.
On the flip side of the coin, even assuming the Hivemind gets the short end of that stick, Hivemind's come with their own advantages and civics. Are those advantages and unique civics significant enough to allow them to fall behind in mass colonizing while still being competitive. Again, I don't know yet.
Now, I get it, you want to have an argument about how Hivemind should be allowed any ascension perk, and you want to have that argument right now while we're still waiting on information. But I'm not going to have an opinion on this and my only contributions here will be to explain that while it may appear, on partial information, that this decision was made exclusively for flavor purposes. We really don't know yet why the developers made this decision and so arguing for its overturn based on it being exclusively for flavor is not likely to be productive.
someone said that they became hive-mind-synthetics. so probably it's better suited for synth ascension path. not hivemind start
You do realize they already have PSI right? The "PSI to communicate between drones but not quite true PSI" thingy.
Furthermore you are wrong. PSI is not limited to spiritualist either.
IE if I start out game as materialist and shift my ethic over to spiritualist through faction and other actions. You will unlock PSI despite starting without spiritualist.
On the flip side you can start as a spiritualist and unlock PSI then basically shift your entire ethic over to Xenophobe and fanatic materialist while still having PSI unlocked.
Here is an example of a mid-game Human with 10% of everything. The three points you get at game start doesn't allow you to have 10% of every ethics.
Give the below link another read.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/
But even if you don't START with spiritualist, you still have to BECOME spiritualist to go for Psionics. The point still stands, as Hive Minds can't become spiritualist, since they do not use ethics.
You do realize they already have PSI right? The "PSI to communicate between drones but not quite true PSI" thingy.
Furthermore you are wrong. PSI is not limited to spiritualist either.
IE if I start out game as materialist and shift my ethic over to spiritualist through faction and other actions. You will unlock PSI despite starting without spiritualist.
On the flip side you can start as a spiritualist and unlock PSI then basically shift your entire ethic over to Xenophobe and fanatic materialist while still having PSI unlocked.
Here is an example of a mid-game Human with 10% of everything. The three points you get at game start doesn't allow you to have 10% of every ethics.
Give the below link another read.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/
I never said that it was because of biological reasons that spiritualists alone can get the psionic ascencion, so I don't see how the fact that you can change your ethos is "proof" that I am wrong, you do need to be spiritualistic, which the hive minds are not.