Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique

[Zavaleta]

I think it makes sense that new hive-mind empires must start only as biological hivemind (Bugs, etc.). But I think that the synth and psi paths should open the possibility to become a hive mind. Maybe even only as a crisis that is spark from mistakes made down these ascension paths. I really want to fight the Borg collective, and not just in the Star Trek mod!

 

[BootOnFace]

Like I said earlier, other fictional species doing things is no argument for Stellaris to do a thing in the same way. In Star Trek, the Federation researched Hyperdrives (transwarp) after starting with Warp drives. Does that mean that we should be able to research the other FTL methods? No. The game is better when you're restricted from doing everything.

Whether the Zerg are psionic or not is irrelevant to the gameplay design of Hive Minds in Stellaris.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Whether the Zerg are psionic or not is irrelevant to the gameplay design of Hive Minds in Stellaris.

I certainly agree in principle, but what I take issue with is Tavior using the Zerg as an example of a "Psionic Ascension Hive Mind" when they're very definitely not and actually quite closely resemble what we've been shown a Genetic Ascension Hive Mind would look like.

 

[Zavaleta]

Ok, I really don't understand the dislikes for my comment. Why do people not want synth or psi hiveminds to become a possibility to appear mid or late game? As an ascension option or crisis threat?

I don't understand how that would upset gameplay or not be fun. It seems like the possibility would only enrich gameplay in a dynamic and interesting way. In my opinion, Hiveminds appear currently too restrictive from a gameplay (not just sci-fi genre) perspective. They are factionless blobs. Playing a Hivemind currently means only blobbing out, with less internal gameplay dynamics than vanilla Stellaris. I think adding some more variety would spice things up. Fight me!

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Ok, I really don't understand the dislikes for my comment. Why do people not want synth or psi hiveminds to become a possibility to appear mid or late game? As an ascension option or crisis threat?

I don't understand how that would upset gameplay or not be fun. It seems like the possibility would only enrich gameplay in a dynamic and interesting way. In my opinion, Hiveminds appear currently too restrictive from a gameplay (not just sci-fi genre) perspective. They are factionless blobs. Playing a Hivemind currently means only blobbing out, with less internal gameplay dynamics than vanilla Stellaris. I think adding some more variety would spice things up. Fight me!

Hive Minds are supposed to be distinct and unique by giving it to Psionic and Synthetic Paths you would just cheapen hive minds as a mechanic.

 

[Xoatl]

To my understanding, it is based on a latent psionic connection between each and every individual of the species, forming a great whole that is only capable of higher reasoning as a single entity.

Not true, in the dev diary they make exception for "autonomous units". Not sure how I feel about it. I'd rather they don't get leaders at all, get a flat bonus for everything based on government leader level. Seems to be more realistic.

 

[Zavaleta]

Hive Minds are supposed to be distinct and unique by giving it to Psionic and Synthetic Paths you would just cheapen hive minds as a mechanic.

Ok. That is a rational. But if synth or psi can only be unlocked or initiated (as a crisis) by ascension picks in mid or late game would that not also add some variety and dynamic gameplay without taking away from the unique start of Hiveminds as biological? That is my logic.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Ok. That is a rational. But if synth or psi can only me unlocked or initiated (as a crisis) by ascension picks in mid or late game would that not also add some variety and dynamic gameplay without taking away from the unique start of Hiveminds as biological? That is my logic.

Possibly, but I still feel there would be a great risk of cheapening the Hive Mind mechanic. But regardless I'm confident that if the devs chose to do that then they could do it well.

 

[Zavaleta]

Possibly, but I still feel there would be a great risk of cheapening the Hive Mind mechanic. But regardless I'm confident that if the devs chose to do that then they could do it well.

I hope they do. I am confident that they would add it in an interesting way. I think it would be fun for instance to go down the Synth ascension tree, turn your pops into cyborgs, and then accidentally initiate a cyborg collective that rebels and threatens you and your neighbors with assimilation. I agree with maintaining the unique start for Hiveminds as biologically evolved hive minds rather than beginning as a cyborg species or a psi mind for the sake of maintaining a diversity of unique gameplay mechanics.

 

[Tavior]

@Tavior , I want to get a clarification:

A) Do you think that Stellaris Hiveminds should be able to go for the Psi-Ascendancy as well as Bio-Ascendancy?

That's just an opinion and there's nothing to really add there. I do admit that I kind of want to see that. However, the devs have noted that they have a specific idea of what Stellaris' Hivemind is supposed to represent and Psi-Ascendancy is incompatible with that. In lore, the Hivemind's telepathy is radically different to ordinary psi powers and makes it impossible for a Hivemind to Psi-Ascent.
I expect that it also had to do with the release date being this April rather than next Christmas.

B) Do you think that the Zerg are more analoguous to a Psi-Ascended Hivemind in Stellaris than a Bio-Ascended one?

That is very much false. To tally up the likeness, likeness to Psi-Ascended or to Bio-Ascended, respectively:

1. They have no psi powers beside their Hivemind telepathy, which all Stellaris Hiveminds have by default. 0 to 0.
2. They have no access to any other mystical reality or another plane of existence or anything of the sort. 0 to 0.
3. They do not communicate with any sort of mystical beings from another plane of existence. 0 to 0.
   
4. They assimilate other species to their Hivemind. 0 to 1.
5. They gain abilities through mutations and directed evolution. 0 to 2.
6. They very deliberately mess with genetics to better themselves and to make the assimilated species more useful. 0 to 3.

The only exception to this that I can think of is Kerrigan, which is directly analoguous to a Bio-Ascendant Stellaris Hivemind capturing a planet from a Psi-Ascended empire and then assimilating their pops. So... 0 to 4.

Nothing to point towards Psi-Ascendancy, many things to point towards Bio-Ascendancy.

A) All I am asking is more choices for Hive Mind to deal with non-Hive Mind pop intergration process in additional to not locked on Biological Ascension path. Otherwise every single game with Hive Mind would always end up with the same endgame which can get boring somewhat.

B) No not quite. If Amon was not stopped at all Zerg, despite being heavy-biological inclined, would have been merged with Protoss and turned into a fully hybrid of Biological and PSI asencsion aka Starcraft 2 Hybrid.

If Zerg were truly incapable of having any potential for PSI power then why did Amon bother picking Zerg to biologically ascended in the first place? Because that was the end-game goal for a race of biological/PSI hybrid under a single conscience which fits the PSI Hive Mind in-game definition. Therefore Zerg has the potential to harness PSI despite that they are incapable of infecting Protoss and acquire it that way.

There is a difference between having the potential and having none. Most people seem to be stuck at that line.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

B) No not quite. If Amon was not stopped at all Zerg, despite being heavy-biological inclined, would have been merged with Protoss and turned into a fully hybrid of Biological and PSI asencsion aka Starcraft 2 Hybrid.

If Zerg were truly incapable of having any potential for PSI power then why did Amon bother picking Zerg to biologically ascended in the first place? Because that was the end-game goal for a race of biological/PSI hybrid under a single conscience which fits the PSI Hive Mind in-game definition. Therefore Zerg has the potential to harness PSI despite that they are incapable of infecting Protoss and acquire it that way.

There is a difference between having the potential and having none. Most people seem to be stuck at that line.

Alright, you do want to die on that hill.

The only psionic ability or potential the Zerg have is the psychic, telepathic hive-mind link itself, centralized in the Overmind and originally given to them by Amon.

The Zerg didn't need to have psionic potential to be useful to Amon- that's what the Protoss were for! The psionic abilities of the Hybrids are a product of the Protoss half of the Hybrids, oh my god how do you not know/understand this?

 

[Tavior]

Look, @Tavior , is this really the hill you want to die on?

Like I said: that a Hive Mind in Stellaris should be able to choose the Psionic Ascendancy path is a matter of opinion, and you're free to yours. If you can pull up examples from fiction that resemble that, all the better.

But arguing that the Zerg are that example is a losing proposition- they're one of the quintessential examples of a biotech-using, assimilating Hive Mind, which is what Stellaris seems intent on replicating to some degree or another. You even admitted that you were reaching for examples because there weren't many, and that that's why you suggested that the Emperor of Mankind counted as a Psionic Ascendancy Hive Mind- which is ludicrous, because while the Imperium of Man is quite arguably a Psionic Ascendancy, it's by no means a Hive Mind.

You can't win this argument, on multiple levels. It should be over just by virtue of adding other species to your Hive Mind being locked behind the Genetic Ascension path, meaning the Zerg can't be anything but an example of a Genetic Ascension path Hive Mind.

You still yet have to present a strong argument in any form that say Zerg are completely incapable of harnessing PSI power in any shape.

There is a huge difference between having potential to go PSI ascension (Amon endgame with Zerg is to make them essentially an "archon between zerg bio and protoss psi") and not having any at all in the first place.

If you really want to convince me. Find something that shows Amon did NOT plan to re-create Zerg into a race that fully embrace both biological ascension and PSI ascension. Then I will be convinced. Until such time I will still consider Zerg having the potential for PSI power.

 

[Tavior]

Alright, you do want to die on that hill.

The only psionic ability or potential the Zerg have is the psychic, telepathic hive-mind link itself, centralized in the Overmind and originally given to them by Amon.

The Zerg didn't need to have psionic potential to be useful to Amon- that's what the Protoss were for! The psionic abilities of the Hybrids are a product of the Protoss half of the Hybrids, oh my god how do you not know/understand this?

You are just beating the dead horse at this point.

I am telling you either Zerg has the potential for PSI power or they don't. There is no middle ground. They were useful because they could be merged with Protoss not the other way around.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You still yet have to present a strong argument in any form that say Zerg are completely incapable of harnessing PSI power in any shape.

There is a huge difference between having potential to go PSI ascension (Amon endgame with Zerg is to make them essentially an "archon between zerg bio and protoss psi") and not having any at all in the first place.

If you really want to convince me. Find something that shows Amon did NOT plan to re-create Zerg into a race that fully embrace both biological ascension and PSI ascension. Then I will be convinced. Until such time I will still consider Zerg having the potential for PSI power.

Your complete ignorance of Starcraft's lore and insistence on ignoring sources and evidence (of which I have both provided) contrary to your erroneous opinion is, frankly, disgusting. You really shouldn't argue things you're so unfamiliar with, because then you wind up looking stupid- like now, and like when you suggested the Emperor of Mankind was an example of a Psionic Hive Mind because holy cow I'm sure not gonna drop that because it sums up your entire familiarity with this subject.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You are just beating the dead horse at this point.

I am telling you either Zerg has the potential for PSI power or they don't. There is no middle ground. They were useful because they could be merged with Protoss not the other way around.

False. You'd know the difference and distinction if you actually knew anything about Starcraft's lore, which you don't.

 

[Tavior]

Your complete ignorance of Starcraft's lore and insistence on ignoring sources and evidence (of which I have both provided) contrary to your erroneous opinion is, frankly, disgusting. You really shouldn't argue things you're so unfamiliar with, because then you wind up looking stupid- like now, and like when you suggested the Emperor of Mankind was an example of a Psionic Hive Mind because holy cow I'm sure not gonna drop that because it sums up your entire familiarity with this subject.

You failed to understand what I said about Imperium. I said the Emperor is capable of creating a network of PSI linked mind not that he is leading a Hive Mind. You got it backward.

 

[Tavior]

False. You'd know the difference and distinction if you actually knew anything about Starcraft's lore, which you don't.

Difference doesn't have any point of similar at all. Like Horse and Bird.

While Distinction have something in common even if still different. Like how crocodile and alligator both have scale and walk/crawl on 4 and live in water but is not the same species.

Don't try to call me an idiot though implying it please.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Suffice to say, @Tavior , that I'm done trying to educate you given you've proven yourself so determined to remain dishonest and ignorant of the topic. Buh-bye.

 

[nyah]

False. You'd know the difference and distinction if you actually knew anything about Starcraft's lore, which you don't.

You do realise that it's not actually real?

 

[Tavior]

Suffice to say, @Tavior , that I'm done trying to educate you given you've proven yourself so determined to remain dishonest and ignorant of the topic. Buh-bye.

Dishonest? Hah. I could said the same of you. At least I didn't implied anything bad like you did by calling someone dishonest.