Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique

[BlackUmbrellas]

Overlord was capable of using psi power to resurrect their cerebrate when the khala protoss tried to kill it. Hence the dark templar had to step in and do it for them despite the distrust between light and dark templar.

The Overmind used its telepathic link to its Cerebrates to "save" their personalities within itself and restore them in newly-grown bodies. That's still just basic Hive Mind telepathy, nothing like what we've seen in the Psionic Ascension Path.

Every example of Zerg psionics you have drawn upon has either been not actually Zerg-related or just some variant on "they can send and recieve and rely upon telepathic signals", which is baseline Hive Mind capability in Stellaris and has no indication of being a higher-level psionic ability such as those shown in the Psionic Ascension Path.

Overlords gave Zerg spaceflight, not telepathy- telepathy was inherent with the creation of the Overmind to unify the Zerg.

 

[Tavior]

The Overmind used its telepathic link to its Cerebrates to "save" their personalities within itself and restore them in newly-grown bodies. That's still just basic Hive Mind telepathy, nothing like what we've seen in the Psionic Ascension Path.

Every example of Zerg psionics you have drawn upon has either been not actually Zerg-related or just some variant on "they can send and recieve and rely upon telepathic signals", which is baseline Hive Mind capability in Stellaris and has no indication of being a higher-level psionic ability such as those shown in the Psionic Ascension Path.

Overlords gave Zerg spaceflight, not telepathy- telepathy was inherent with the creation of the Overmind to unify the Zerg.

Incorrect.

Spoiler

Gargantis proximae were telepathic, semi-intelligent, space faring creatures. They had multiple homeworlds. The first zerg overlords were created centuries before the Great War from assimilated Gargantis. The herbivorous Gargantis were facing starvation; they psionically summoned the Swarm and willingly accepted assimilation to survive.[1] The Swarm uses overlords as sensors and control nexii.[2] Gargantis possessed a thick carapace, which changed little through assimilation, and elongated appendages that hung from their underbellies.[3]

Genetically, overlords are almost identical to the Gargantis—to date, they are the only known core strain to pass through assimilation so unblemished.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantis_proximae

Does zerg have hive mind like quality? Check

Telepathy and latent psi power? Check

Valid psi ascension hive mind if they had not broke free from Amon control.

 

[Tavior]

Also unrelated. Why is a SINGLE person disagree every post I made before reading it? lol.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Also unrelated. Why is a SINGLE person disagree every post I made before reading it? lol.

Just deal with it. On this forum i was respectfully disagreed for asking questions

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Incorrect.

Spoiler

Gargantis proximae were telepathic, semi-intelligent, space faring creatures. They had multiple homeworlds. The first zerg overlords were created centuries before the Great War from assimilated Gargantis. The herbivorous Gargantis were facing starvation; they psionically summoned the Swarm and willingly accepted assimilation to survive.[1] The Swarm uses overlords as sensors and control nexii.[2] Gargantis possessed a thick carapace, which changed little through assimilation, and elongated appendages that hung from their underbellies.[3]

Genetically, overlords are almost identical to the Gargantis—to date, they are the only known core strain to pass through assimilation so unblemished.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantis_proximae

That the ancestors of the Overlords summoned the Zerg is a retcon (and one that really doesn't make much sense, honestly, but okay), but it doesn't really conflict with anything I said- the Zerg were already telepathic by virtue of the Overmind. That was the whole point of it- a single mind linking all Zerg through a psychic connection, allowing them to be puppets of Amon.

Does zerg have hive mind like quality? Check

Telepathy and latent psi power? Check

Valid psi ascension hive mind if they had not broke free from Amon control.

Zerg didn't have a latent hive mind- they were engineered into one by Amon. Said hive mind is the source of their telepathy (and again, all Hive Minds in Stellaris are naturally telepathic but unable to manifest further psionic potential), and they possess no other psi powers.

Try again.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Let me put this another way on the off chance it helps you understand where you're going wrong.

You could argue that the Zerg, by virtue of having telepathy, count as having the first Psionics tech and thus being valid to select the Psionic Ascension as a pre-Ascension species. You would be wrong, because their telepathy isn't from a tech, it's from being a Hive Mind- and also they don't have any non-telepathic psionic abilities. But you could argue it.

There's zero argument for them having done so, however (meaning they're absolutely NOT an example of a Psionic Ascension Hive Mind).

The Zerg have no special access to a "higher realm" like the Shroud. They have no advanced psionic abilities ala Jedi. They lack any specifically psionic technologies. These are all things they should have some equivalent of to be seen as a valid example of something like a Psionic Ascension Hive Mind in fiction- they lack them, however, and thus cannot be used as such an example.

The same way as you can't use the Emperor of Mankind as an example of a Psionic Ascendancy Hive Mind.

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

Incorrect.

Spoiler

Gargantis proximae were telepathic, semi-intelligent, space faring creatures. They had multiple homeworlds. The first zerg overlords were created centuries before the Great War from assimilated Gargantis. The herbivorous Gargantis were facing starvation; they psionically summoned the Swarm and willingly accepted assimilation to survive.[1] The Swarm uses overlords as sensors and control nexii.[2] Gargantis possessed a thick carapace, which changed little through assimilation, and elongated appendages that hung from their underbellies.[3]

Genetically, overlords are almost identical to the Gargantis—to date, they are the only known core strain to pass through assimilation so unblemished.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantis_proximae

Does zerg have hive mind like quality? Check

Telepathy and latent psi power? Check

Valid psi ascension hive mind if they had not broke free from Amon control.

I must point at just because they can use psi doesn't instantly make them able to break through the Shroud because it might require more then one mind and events where a few psi user burn out wouldn't make sense

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I must point at just because they can use psi doesn't instantly make them able to break through the Shroud because it might require more then one mind and events where a few psi user burn out wouldn't make sense

There's sort of... two arguments here that are hard to separate.

1. "Zerg are a valid example of a fictional civilization that can be considered analogous to a Hive Mind which has completed the Psionic Ascension", which I maintain is false.
2. "Hive Minds should have access to the Psionic Ascension Path perks", which is a matter of opinion.

 

[Tavior]

That the ancestors of the Overlords summoned the Zerg is a retcon (and one that really doesn't make much sense, honestly, but okay), but it doesn't really conflict with anything I said- the Zerg were already telepathic by virtue of the Overmind. That was the whole point of it- a single mind linking all Zerg through a psychic connection, allowing them to be puppets of Amon.

Zerg didn't have a latent hive mind- they were engineered into one by Amon. Said hive mind is the source of their telepathy (and again, all Hive Minds in Stellaris are naturally telepathic but unable to manifest further psionic potential), and they possess no other psi powers.

Try again.

You are still blatant wrong due to retcon.

For two reasons, first off Overlord Zerg did not care if kerrigan had PSI power or not but it certainly help that she did. Second Overlord Zerg was still firmly completely under amon control during this time frame so Overlord hijack Kerrigan to free itself from Amon's control and as a consquence (took a while until wing of liberty for that) zerg freed from amon and derail Amon plan to remake the entire universe.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You are still blatant wrong due to retcon.

For two reasons, first off Overlord Zerg did not care if kerrigan had PSI power or not but it certainly help that she did. Second Overlord Zerg was still firmly completely under amon control during this time frame so Overlord hijack Kerrigan to free itself from Amon's control and as a consquence (took a while until wing of liberty for that) zerg freed from amon and derail Amon plan to remake the entire universe.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan

The Overmind wanted Kerrigan to free the Zerg from Amon's influence, yes. Its excuse for assimilating her was that she was a powerful psion that could be weaponized against the Protoss- remember, the Zerg targeted the Terrans in the first place for assimilation because we had latent psionic potential, which the Zerg lacked.

You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Nothing about the retcon of the ancestors of the Overlords summoning the Zerg and not the other way around changes that the Zerg already had a latent telepathic link to each other and that the Overlords provided the Zerg with the ability to survive in space, not their telepathic link.

 

[Tavior]

The Overmind wanted Kerrigan to free the Zerg from Amon's influence, yes. Its excuse for assimilating her was that she was a powerful psion that could be weaponized against the Protoss- remember, the Zerg targeted the Terrans in the first place for assimilation because we had latent psionic potential, which the Zerg lacked.

You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Nothing about the retcon of the ancestors of the Overlords summoning the Zerg and not the other way around changes that the Zerg already had a latent telepathic link to each other and that the Overlords provided the Zerg with the ability to survive in space, not their telepathic link.

You forget jacob installation mission. Raynor was raiding a Confederacy base for technologies. It was there that showed Confederacy was already aware of zerg and experimenting ON them. Zerg wasn't drawn to Mara Sara like you think because if that was indeed the case Mara Sara would have been already overrun like Tarsonis was with the psi emitter.

Try again.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You forget jacob installation mission. Raynor was raiding a Confederacy base for technologies. It was there that showed Confederacy was already aware of zerg and experimenting ON them. Zerg wasn't drawn to Mara Sara like you think because if that was indeed the case Mara Sara would have been already overrun like Tarsonis was with the psi emitter.

Try again.

Are you... are you that unfamiliar with Starcraft lore?

The Zerg detected the Terrans while en-route to Auir. The Zerg knew the Protoss had powerful psionic abilities that the Zerg lacked, and they realized the Terrans had largely-untapped psionic potential that the Zerg lacked. The Zerg sent scouts ahead to Terran space to observe them and begin covertly establishing hives- there was, indeed, a long period where the Zerg were known of by the Confederacy and captured to be experimented on, but that was According To Plan as far as the Overmind was concerned.

Again, nothing you just said actually contradicts what I've been telling you.

Since you're so fond of tossing around wiki links, here:

While it absorbed numerous species on the journey, it feared the protoss' psychic abilities, and sought a species with psionic powers which it could absorb for itself. Around 2440, it discovered this species — humanity.[6]

The terrans were discovered by the zerg approximately sixty years before the Great War[6] although the terrans themselves would not know about them for five decades, and even then kept their findings secret.[9]

Citations:

• [6] Underwood, Peter, Bill Roper, Chris Metzen and Jeffrey Vaughn. StarCraft (Manual). Irvine, Calif.: Blizzard Entertainment, 1998.
• [9] Neilson, Micky (December 18, 2000). StarCraft: Uprising. Simon & Schuster (Pocket Star). ISBN 978-0743-41898-0 (eBook).

I can find more sources to directly back up what I'm saying, if you'd like. Trust me: you're wrong.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Hell, here's what I've been saying all along regarding the Overmind being the source of Zerg telepathy:

The Hive Mind
The zerg were united in their drive to evolve, but were still individuals.[8][9] Amon's xel'naga remembered that personal pride and ego had sundered the protoss' collective consciousness, leading to the Aeon of Strife and their estrangement from the xel'naga. To avoid similar chaos, the xel'naga created the Overmind to regulate the dangers of differing egos. The foundations of the Swarm was set.

The Overmind started as a semi-sentient representation of the zerg's basic instincts and evolutionary drive, but evolved into a sentient intelligence. The Overmind created the cerebrates, giant versions of the zerg larva, to help it control the Swarm. Each cerebrate was given a specific task and control of a brood. As the Swarm expanded with new species, the cerebrates turned to queens to help manage their broods.[2]

Some zerg hid and were strong-minded enough to escape subordination to the Overmind and, ultimately, Amon.[8][9] They became the primal zerg, and continued to live as the zerg had before the formation of the Swarm. The primal zerg regarded the Swarm zerg as "corrupt".[10]

Citations:

• [8] Blizzard Entertainment. StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. (Activision Blizzard). PC. Zurvan (in English). 2013-03-12.
• [9] Blizzard Entertainment. StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. (Activision Blizzard). PC. Conversations after Waking the Ancient. (in English). 2013-03-12.
• [2] Underwood, Peter, Bill Roper, Chris Metzen and Jeffrey Vaughn. StarCraft (Manual). Irvine, Calif.: Blizzard Entertainment, 1998.
• [10] Blizzard Entertainment. StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. (Activision Blizzard). PC. Mission: Heart of the Swarm, Waking the Ancient (in English). 2013-03-12.

 

[Tavior]

Are you... are you that unfamiliar with Starcraft lore?

The Zerg detected the Terrans while en-route to Auir. The Zerg knew the Protoss had powerful psionic abilities that the Zerg lacked, and they realized the Terrans had largely-untapped psionic potential that the Zerg lacked. The Zerg sent scouts ahead to Terran space to observe them and begin covertly establishing hives- there was, indeed, a long period where the Zerg were known of by the Confederacy and captured to be experimented on, but that was According To Plan as far as the Overmind was concerned.

Again, nothing you just said actually contradicts what I've been telling you.

Since you're so fond of tossing around wiki links, here:


Citations:

• [6] Underwood, Peter, Bill Roper, Chris Metzen and Jeffrey Vaughn. StarCraft (Manual). Irvine, Calif.: Blizzard Entertainment, 1998.
• [9] Neilson, Micky (December 18, 2000). StarCraft: Uprising. Simon & Schuster (Pocket Star). ISBN 978-0743-41898-0 (eBook).

I can find more sources to directly back up what I'm saying, if you'd like. Trust me: you're wrong.

I never said Zerg was NOT looking for psi races.

Where did you get that impression?

The Zerg force on Mara Sara was more of a scouting expedition than a "grab everything in sight until you find an easy prey with psi power" army in force.

Case in point: Confederacy base on Mara Sara had zerglings trapped in cage and Zerg was clearly aware of Human at this point. Before the first mission Protoss already had "cleansed" another human planet that was infected with zerg.

So why did they not fully properly invade until Tarsonis psi emitter become active? Especially if they are that desperate for psi races. Perhaps they were at that point unaware of psi power terrain had? No matter.

Furthermore Overlord did NOT know where to go/find Auir until Zazs was killed. So they were searching the korpulu sector both for Auir and a race with PSI ability.

So my point is still valid. You have not really provide a strong argument one way or another.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Let me break this down for you one last time.

I never said Zerg was NOT looking for psi races.

Where did you get that impression?

The Zerg only wanted to find a psionic species to assimilate because they themselves lacked psionics. That's a clear contradiction to your argument that the Zerg would be a Psionic Ascendant Hive Mind in Stellaris.

The Zerg force on Mara Sara was more of a scouting expedition than a "grab everything in sight until you find an easy prey with psi power" army in force.

And?

Case in point: Confederacy base on Mara Sara had zerglings trapped in cage and Zerg was clearly aware of Human at this point. Before the first mission Protoss already had "cleansed" another human planet that was infected with zerg.

Yes, and? That was right around the tipping point- per Starcraft lore, the Zerg had been studying humanity for 50 years before the Confederacy ever captured any Zerg, and it was then another 10 years before the infestation of Chau Sara and the following events on Mar Sara.

So why did they not fully properly invade until Tarsonis psi emitter become active? Especially if they are that desperate for psi races. Perhaps they were at that point unaware of psi power terrain had? No matter.

The Zerg were well aware of Terran psionic potential- they were just trying to be covert in establishing a foothold in the area. I'd hazard a guess that the attack by the Protoss is what instigated the sudden wave of massive infestation outbreaks- the Overmind knew they were out of time and "sprung the trap". Psi Emitter use was tangential.

Furthermore Overlord did NOT know where to go/find Auir until Zazs was killed. So they were searching the korpulu sector both for Auir and a race with PSI ability.

It knew the general area, not the exact location- the Terrans are practically right next to Protoss space.

So my point is still valid. You have not really provide a strong argument one way or another.

Your point has never been valid. The Zerg still continue to have plenty of traits that can be compared to the Genetic Ascension Path perks and none comparable to the Psionic Ascension Path perks.

The Zerg lack access to a higher dimension like the Shroud. The Zerg lack psionic abilities outside of hive-mind telepathy. The Zerg lack special psionic technologies. These are all things they'd need to have to make a case for them being a post-Psionic Ascension species.

Instead they show all kinds of abilities that directly translate into things unlocked or made easier by the Genetic Ascension Path perks.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Look, @Tavior , is this really the hill you want to die on?

Like I said: that a Hive Mind in Stellaris should be able to choose the Psionic Ascendancy path is a matter of opinion, and you're free to yours. If you can pull up examples from fiction that resemble that, all the better.

But arguing that the Zerg are that example is a losing proposition- they're one of the quintessential examples of a biotech-using, assimilating Hive Mind, which is what Stellaris seems intent on replicating to some degree or another. You even admitted that you were reaching for examples because there weren't many, and that that's why you suggested that the Emperor of Mankind counted as a Psionic Ascendancy Hive Mind- which is ludicrous, because while the Imperium of Man is quite arguably a Psionic Ascendancy, it's by no means a Hive Mind.

You can't win this argument, on multiple levels. It should be over just by virtue of adding other species to your Hive Mind being locked behind the Genetic Ascension path, meaning the Zerg can't be anything but an example of a Genetic Ascension path Hive Mind.

 

[Hertzila]

@Tavior , I want to get a clarification:

A) Do you think that Stellaris Hiveminds should be able to go for the Psi-Ascendancy as well as Bio-Ascendancy?

That's just an opinion and there's nothing to really add there. I do admit that I kind of want to see that. However, the devs have noted that they have a specific idea of what Stellaris' Hivemind is supposed to represent and Psi-Ascendancy is incompatible with that. In lore, the Hivemind's telepathy is radically different to ordinary psi powers and makes it impossible for a Hivemind to Psi-Ascent.
I expect that it also had to do with the release date being this April rather than next Christmas.

B) Do you think that the Zerg are more analoguous to a Psi-Ascended Hivemind in Stellaris than a Bio-Ascended one?

That is very much false. To tally up the likeness, likeness to Psi-Ascended or to Bio-Ascended, respectively:

1. They have no psi powers beside their Hivemind telepathy, which all Stellaris Hiveminds have by default. 0 to 0.
2. They have no access to any other mystical reality or another plane of existence or anything of the sort. 0 to 0.
3. They do not communicate with any sort of mystical beings from another plane of existence. 0 to 0.
   
4. They assimilate other species to their Hivemind. 0 to 1.
5. They gain abilities through mutations and directed evolution. 0 to 2.
6. They very deliberately mess with genetics to better themselves and to make the assimilated species more useful. 0 to 3.

The only exception to this that I can think of is Kerrigan, which is directly analoguous to a Bio-Ascendant Stellaris Hivemind capturing a planet from a Psi-Ascended empire and then assimilating their pops. So... 0 to 4.

Nothing to point towards Psi-Ascendancy, many things to point towards Bio-Ascendancy.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Just deal with it. On this forum i was respectfully disagreed for asking questions

Not sure what you're implying, people disagreed with Tavior post because they disagree with their arguments.

 

[Sinister2202]

I would guess the "hive mind" is already a psionically ascended being of its own, and uses biological ascension to improve its drones for better efficiency. Psionics is different from synthetics, so if the hive mind is a psionic, it wouldn't be able to control mechanical drones. The hive mind would have to be some sort of central AI if it wanted to control machines. And since hive mind starts out with organic life forms, if it's not some sort of a "being" of its own and something else entirely, then it would most likely be something that's been developed through biology of the drone species, and it wouldn't even have the know-how for synthetic ascension. If it does, then it wouldn't be in the best interest of the hive. And the drones are "mindless", so drones themselves being capable of psionic is not possible.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

I would guess the "hive mind" is already a psionically ascended being of its own

I don't see any evidence of that, we know that each drone is a part of it and they're all connected psionically but that doesn't mean that it resides in the Shroud (it could of course).

And since hive mind starts out with organic life forms, if it's not some sort of a "being" of its own and something else entirely, then it would most likely be something that's been developed through biology of the drone species, and it wouldn't even have the know-how for synthetic ascension

This seems to be a massive assumption, a while ago Wiz (or someone) posted a tweet showing the starting text for hive minds and it explicitly stated that it started as a hive mind.

If it does, then it wouldn't be in the best interest of the hive. And the drones are "mindless", so drones themselves being capable of psionic is not possible.

I agree.