Hive Mind: Biological Ascension Critique

[Tavior]

@Wiz

Help me understand why Hive Mind are essentially locked only to the biological ascension route?

I know that right now tool tip says Hive Mind can NOT pick endgame synthetic or PSI paths.

I rather take that restriction out and allow more flexible interactive with non-Hive Mind Empires.

After all there are plenty of non-biological ascension sci-fi examples to draw from.


MorningLightMountain, Replicators, Berserker, and Borg for the synthetic route and they both are perfectly capable of having non-native pop integrate into their own empire. None of them were even remotely biological inclined!


Starcraft's if somewhat artifact Zerg, Formics, Tyranid, Vorlon from Babylon 5, and "Imperium of Mankind and chaos god" of 40k warhammer are to various degree of example of PSI inclined Hive Mind even if they don't quite meet the definition of in-game Hive Mind.


The unbidden for all we know could be either biological or psi inclined Hive Mind. It is quite hard to tell.


Since you can augment other non-Hive Mind with both PSI and cybernetic regardless if you are actually Hive Mind yourself. I don't really see any reason why Hive Mind are locked firmly into biological ascension paths to be frank.

The only remote plausible reason I can come up with after thinking on it for a few weeks is that PSI/Cybernetic bonus put together with Hive Mind's bonus are too strong? Only problem?

That is also converse true for biological ascension. So back to square one, Why only biological ascension endgame for Hive Mind?

 

[JulienJaden]

I think the reasoning behind this is that this hive-mind is organic in nature, rather than anything else:
To my understanding, it is based on a latent psionic connection between each and every individual of the species, forming a great whole that is only capable of higher reasoning as a single entity. This means two things:

1) The hive-mind is, as stated in the dev diary, incompatible with the psionic path because, on one hand, it is already connected to the psi dimension (forgot what it was called) and exists in it, but is incapable of true ascension because that seems to be individual ascension of the members of the species, i.e. the mindless drones would have to ascend one by one, which they are incapable of and would also mean that they would be lost to the hive-mind.
-- It could be argued that the hive-mind as a whole might be able to ascend on the psi path, but I think that would either require a critical mass of members (i.e. most sentient life in the galaxy?) or an individual ascension path for hive-minds.

2) The key idea here seems to be that the connection is based on biology. A certain degree of cybernetic improvements should be feasible but an ascension to more or less entirely artificial lifeforms would effectively remove these drones from the hive, thus damaging the hive-mind.


I don't know if that convinces you but I, for one, can understand why it's locked in.
Maybe there should be a hive-mind ascension path or branch, though, allowing a regular species to link their minds together (which is kinda hinted at in the Subconscious Consensus government type) through technology or psionic/biological means.

 

[Ezumiyr]

1 - Stellaris is not an amalgam of everything that has ever be done in science fiction. It's a micture of selected tropes and of its own choices.
You'll find all kinds of things that exist in an other universe but not in Stellaris, for the same reason why there's no Force in Star Trek.
Some of these chocies are made for gameplay reasons. This is one of them. Hiveminds have a specific and unique gameplay, that is not adapted to other Ascension paths. Not that it would be powerful, simply that the gameplay mechanics don't fit in and would need adaptation.

2 - it's said in dev diary 62 that Hiveminds rely on psionics, just in a very different way that blocks them from the Psionic Ascension path. It doesn't mean that they have nothing to do with it, it just means that they can't achieve Ascension through it. Same thing for synths, they seem to remain individuals in Stellaris, but that doesn't mean they don't have some kind of synthetic telepathic link between them, and they all look like each other. They probably feel more similar to each other, more standardized - or at least we are free to imagine so.

3 - You're taking the Ascension paths for what they aren't. They aren't just a playstyle - biological Ascension doesn't just mean that your empire is focused on genetic advancement. It means that you'll achieve some kind of transcendance through it. They aren't a "pick a new end game out of three" either. They're available through Unity, among other Ascension perks. Which means that not every empire will pick them, and also that you need a lot of Unity. The Ascension Paths are likely more accessible for tall empires, and it's very difficult to gather Unity as a Hive Mind since you have no factions. You can totally play a HiveMind and never complete an Ascension Path.

 

[Tavior]

I think the reasoning behind this is that this hive-mind is organic in nature, rather than anything else:
To my understanding, it is based on a latent psionic connection between each and every individual of the species, forming a great whole that is only capable of higher reasoning as a single entity. This means two things:

1) The hive-mind is, as stated in the dev diary, incompatible with the psionic path because, on one hand, it is already connected to the psi dimension (forgot what it was called) and exists in it, but is incapable of true ascension because that seems to be individual ascension of the members of the species, i.e. the mindless drones would have to ascend one by one, which they are incapable of and would also mean that they would be lost to the hive-mind.
-- It could be argued that the hive-mind as a whole might be able to ascend on the psi path, but I think that would either require a critical mass of members (i.e. most sentient life in the galaxy?) or an individual ascension path for hive-minds.

2) The key idea here seems to be that the connection is based on biology. A certain degree of cybernetic improvements should be feasible but an ascension to more or less entirely artificial lifeforms would effectively remove these drones from the hive, thus damaging the hive-mind.


I don't know if that convinces you but I, for one, can understand why it's locked in.
Maybe there should be a hive-mind ascension path or branch, though, allowing a regular species to link their minds together (which is kinda hinted at in the Subconscious Consensus government type) through technology or psionic/biological means.

Except the dev has already said that the current Hive Mind are intrinsic PSI-linked but the problem is there are other way to be ties together like a cybernetic augmented civilization which uses the electric nerve medium. In-game Hive Mind use PSI to communicate so why are they locked from using it to further their agenda?

Sarcasm: Also WHY exactly is a PSI enabled civilization LOCKED out of PSI ascension path? Yeah that totally make sense to me! /end sarcasm!

 

[wthree]

The borg is not a hive-mind gone synthetic. They are a non-hive-mind gone synthetic-hive-mind, so the analogy of the borg is wrong.

I think the logic works twofold (and I actually kind of agree). The idea of upgrading individuals to cyborgs (ala synthetic paths) makes no sense to a single entity hive mind.

As for the psionics, they have already said there is a psionic connection to the shroud which works differently, and again having individuals awaken their psionic ability makes no sense either.

Personally, I think it would have been cool to have a hive-mind unique accession path, with mild variations on each.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Many things are done for balance. Making immortal leaders by bio-eng path is not absurd from lore point of view, however it is surely dropped by Stellaris according to the balance reasons.
Also, hive-mind is really strong synergy with bio path, as you gain immortal leader along with modifications and the possibility of absorbtion of non-hive pops.

 

[Tavior]

2 - it's said in dev diary 62 that Hiveminds rely on psionics, just in a very different way that blocks them from the Psionic Ascension path. It doesn't mean that they have nothing to do with it, it just means that they can't achieve Ascension through it. Same thing for synths, they seem to remain individuals in Stellaris, but that doesn't mean they don't have some kind of synthetic telepathic link between them, and they all look like each other. They probably feel more similar to each other, more standardized - or at least we are free to imagine so.

I am aware of that but it still doesn't meant synthetic civilization are blocked from using their cybernetic implant to implement some form of centralized Hive Mind system.

Don't believe me? You can join an existing software Hive Mind right now using your internet. It is called Folding@home. While it isn't a true sentience centralized control conscience but it might be as well an example of a Hive Mind via cybernetic if the computer were inside you.

 

[Nuukov]

I have one of the developers as a friend on Discord and I chat to him fairly regularly. I asked him this question a few days ago and he said something to the effect of "If we were to do that, we might as well release Stellaris 2." Not his exact words, but that was pretty much what he was getting at. It seems they kinda have limited time to develop all of this, so that is why it is restricted for the moment. But that being said, giving Hive-Minds the ability to go Psionic or Synthetic is something I personally want quite a lot, so hopefully they will be able to include that in a future patch/expansion.

 

[Tavior]

The borg is not a hive-mind gone synthetic. They are a non-hive-mind gone synthetic-hive-mind, so the analogy of the borg is wrong.

I think the logic works twofold (and I actually kind of agree). The idea of upgrading individuals to cyborgs (ala synthetic paths) makes no sense to a single entity hive mind.

As for the psionics, they have already said there is a psionic connection to the shroud which works differently, and again having individuals awaken their psionic ability makes no sense either.

Personally, I think it would have been cool to have a hive-mind unique accession path, with mild variations on each.

How do you figure they aren't Hive Mind?

You do know there is a Borg Queen that control the overall centralized high level decision making process right? Even when the queen died. Another one was born to fill the void.

Erm 11 dislikes? In Voyager episode "Endgame" final episode spoiler warning uphead.

Spoiler

Old Captain Kathryn faced a borg Queen and she threat to kill millions of borg live via self-destruction without those drones input or decision making which is CLEARLY a single conscience control Hive Mind system by Stellaris definition.

 

[SolarGuy]

I'd have hoped that Hive Minds could at least get closer to Synthetic Ascension by turning themselves into cyborgs. Cybernetics body parts won't prevent their psionic connection to eachother.
Well, I guess I'll have to mod a Cyborg species trait that is available freely then. I want a cybernetic hive mind, I really do.

 

[JulienJaden]

How do you figure they aren't Hive Mind?

You do know there is a Borg Queen that control the overall centralized high level decision making process right? Even when the queen died. Another one was born to fill the void.

That, however, seems to be different from how Stellaris approaches the hive-mind idea; it's more akin to how the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K work.
Everybody is part of the hive-mind - their bodies are essentially just the limbs of the whole organism. No single individual is making decisions; instead, the individual members of the species act as singular neurons that make up the vast, species-encompassing brain (represented by the player).
Leaders like scientists, admirals etc. are merely extensions of that will, drones with a limited degree of autonomy and higher reasoning but still very much tethered to the hive-mind and it's decisionmaking, not the other way around.

 

[moglus]

I would be fine with this if the bio ascension was as fleshed out as the psi one. But it really isn't... which makes the restriction somewhat more bittersweet since it's done in the name of "make different kinds of empires play differently, feel unique, have special mechanics"

 

[Ewoks_Must_Die]

The psi path doesn't really work with the mechanics that have been described, because it involves a gradual awakening of psionic abilities. When you're part way down the path some of your pops will have the psionic trait, and others won't.

That can't work with a hive because there is only one mind - it's either psionic, or it's not.

 

[Dementor4]

@Wiz

Help me understand why Hive Mind are essentially locked only to the biological ascension route?

I assume it's to reduce labor in rewriting all three ascension paths to have them make sense with a hive mind. It seems likely that the hivemind requires entirely different text to make sense, and their writers are a limited resource. They had to pick between the hivemind having all three paths or an earlier release date, and they picked the latter.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the two other paths enabled a few weeks after release once they have time to get the alternative text hammered out.

 

[Tavior]

That, however, seems to be different from how Stellaris approaches the hive-mind idea; it's more akin to how the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K work.
Everybody is part of the hive-mind - their bodies are essentially just the limbs of the whole organism. No single individual is making decisions; instead, the individual members of the species act as singular neurons that make up the vast, species-encompassing brain (represented by the player).
Leaders like scientists, admirals etc. are merely extensions of that will, drones with a limited degree of autonomy and higher reasoning but still very much tethered to the hive-mind and it's decisionmaking, not the other way around.

There is an episode called Endgame near the end of Star Trek Voyager where the borg queen threat Captain Kathyarn with death of thousand of drones, via self-destruction without the said drones input nor decision making, if Captain doesn't back down.

If that is NOT any form of Hive Mind then I don't know what Borg isn't.

 

[Lothmar]

I thought borg was basically 'robotic consensus' like the stellaris crisis...

 

[Tavior]

I thought borg was basically 'robotic consensus' like the stellaris crisis...

Which crisis are you referring to?

 

[Arkangilos]

Starcraft's if somewhat artifact Zerg

Tyranid

What? Both of these things fit the in game definition of biological hivemind. The Hive minds have already been said to use psionics to communicate and control the drones. The Zerg and Tyrannids use BIOLOGICAL evolution to create stronger and better creatures. Psionic Ascendency is more like the Vorlon and post ascendency evolution Humans in B5.

Vorlon

Imperium of Mankind and chaos god"

Neither of these are Hive Minds...

As for the Borg, I'm pretty sure I saw a Civics trait for the Hive Mind that was a computer chip control system (don't remember what it's called). So you can still have your Borg.

 

[Diezy]

If I were a hive-mind with some understanding of physics, upgrading into machines would be a highly attractive thing to do as a whole.

It'd make the hive-mind super energy efficient, just thriving off Fusion and solar panels, compared to gathering and absorbing nutrients.

Also it's be super-easy to do, as a hive-mind, to become cyborgs. None would object to being replaced with machines linked in the same way as organic things are to the great collective consciousness that they are.

 

[Lothmar]

Which crisis are you referring to?

Sorry thought it was obvious I was refering to Robot one.