The Fascists and Communists joining up is about as likely as The Judean People's Front and The People's front of Judea joining forces.
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Hitlers ally: China vs Japan
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The Fascists and Communists joining up is about as likely as The Judean People's Front and The People's front of Judea joining forces.
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Would the US still have placed an oil embargo on a Japan invading an Axis China? The big reason Japan was the better ally for Germany was that the Japanese could draw more military resources away from the Atlantic/Med than the Chinese could. What this all mean in game though, who knows?
Fascists and communists were basically "birds of feather" in WW2, just different "colors". An alliance of convenience would not be at all implausible. Hitler did not love Japan or Italy. I think he secretly despised every country but Germany. Had he calculated that he could win the war by first allying with the SU, and then attacking them after defeating the Allies, he would not have hesitated. Actually he almost did that with the partition of Poland...
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Depends on who is fighting whom, people can usually justify temporary alliances on basis of "threat that is bigger and exists NOW".
It´s the reason why soviets got Lend Lease, I guess. I don´t think the average american was very happy with CCCP circa the invasion of Finland. That easily changes when you have a common foe.
You say that, but the Soviets tried to join the Axis. And there were members of the German diplomatic corps that thought it might not be the worst idea under the circumstances.
Considering the narrow time frame of the game, it's not that wild of a proposition.
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Agreed. Germany and the United States were waging a de-facto war in the Atlantic before Pearl Harbor even began. The DOW was in a sense merely formalizing the inevitable.
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I think the trick is how to make soviets actually DOW UK. Once the war is out anything it´s possible. What isn´t really nice is having a neutral SU beggining to meddle in your sphere of influence because of war exhaustion
Anyway let´s return to topic which is China or Japan in Axis (my POV was always that Japan had more to offer and is the best ally overall).
OK I chuckled a bit
As far as the OP, going with China is less about them being less useful than Japan as much as Japan being the doom of Germany. So I would go for China to not have Japan have everything go to hell for my game as Germany. Honestly AI Japan has been useless for Germany in all HOI games for me in all games I was allied with them. They just bring the USA in early, they stand no chance against the USSR, which they never DOW on anyways. The USA will grind them down, well, until they just sit there on Truk Island with 50 tank divisions and stop advancing
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Well I am all for the Chinese joining the Axis if they do declare war on the SU, I don't care if the terrian is terrible and they are weak, heck I am happy for the Soviets to send huge amounts of troops into China, anything that stops them coming at me.
As I am going to do in a peaceful game, I will bring China, Poland and the Blakans into the Axis. Maybe France? Then wait for the soviets to invade and let my allies waste their lives draining the life from the bear and then counter attack and "liberate" my defeated allies.
As I am going to do in a peaceful game, I will bring China, Poland and the Blakans into the Axis. Maybe France? Then wait for the soviets to invade and let my allies waste their lives draining the life from the bear and then counter attack and "liberate" my defeated allies.
It is the similarities which make the bitterness more extreme. Hitler and Stalin could co-operate for long enough to carve up Poland, but not to take out The British and French empires, and the USA.
It would only ever have been a time winning exercise for Stalin. He wouldn't have got into a world war on the German side, knowing that a war against them was inevitable immediately after.
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If Germany lets the Soviet Union post troops in German or German occupied territory...
(And if they don't, then the Soviets won't be that useful of an ally.) Leaving aside the value of sneak attacks, whether joining the Axis was a time winning move, Soviet diplomats did ask to join the Axis. Had the Germans accepted their offer, then the Soviets would have been legally obligated to go to war with the USA if the USA declared war against any of the members of the Axis (per terms of the various treaties; it's complicated) and would have been entitled to the spoils of the war.
Now, I suppose Stalin could renege on the deal, but I also don't suppose the Soviets would join the Axis without some kind of consideration in either Eastern Europe, India, or Asia. (My memory is foggy, but I seem to recall discussions between German and Soviet diplomats suggesting the Soviets head into India.) Stalin may be a bit paranoid, but he's not an idiot. If the Soviet Union is getting something from the deal, and if time is on the side of the Soviet Union anyway, fighting alongside Germany isn't that bad of an idea.
After all, with no invasion of its home territory, what kind of military industry do you think would be in place by, say, 1945, with the Soviets building up the whole time? I wager it would be enough to make even Hitler reconsider the viability of Barbarossa.
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It really isn't complicated. He would have reneged before the ink was dry on any Allied declaration. Stalin might have been a bit nutty at times, but he wasn't stupid enough to think an invasion of India was practicable. The numbers of troops needed would have required him to leave the European borders unprotected which he was far too paranoid for, and he would have been pushing them into hideous territory against numerous opposition. All the while knowing that a war was coming against his German "allies" at the end of it. As for industrial build up, the germans would have had the same, with the added advantage of the soviets being bled white in India.
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Well that was the issue the Germans wanted the Russians to go after India and the Russians wanted to go after Turkey and the Middle East. Turkey was either to join the Axis willingly after Russia joined or the Germans would join in an invasion of Turkey.
I am not sure Hitler was really ever considering this option, but there was certainly a portion of the regime that thought this would be the best idea. Romania and Bulgaria were another sticking point.
Considering the majority of German and Russian losses occurred on this front if you free up those troops you really change the war, having access through Turkey to the Middle East and into Africa changes the war completely.
I am not sure Hitler was really ever considering this option, but there was certainly a portion of the regime that thought this would be the best idea. Romania and Bulgaria were another sticking point.
Considering the majority of German and Russian losses occurred on this front if you free up those troops you really change the war, having access through Turkey to the Middle East and into Africa changes the war completely.
Well yes, and if you give the Polish lasers, mass drivers and jet planes it would probably change the war as well.
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Well regardless whether you think it likely the German ambassador to Moscow pushed for a 4 party Axis and Ribbentrop went to Moscow to meet with Stalin a number of times.
November 1940 Halder noted that Hitler thought it possible to bring the Russians in.
November 1940 Halder noted that Hitler thought it possible to bring the Russians in.
Halder was thinking wishfully then. Any agreements Stalin might have entered into would have been scrapped when it came to actually going to war with the allies.
To get back on topic a bit: How about Germany attempting to keep both Japan and Italy out of the Axis (and keep them peacefull for a while) in-game?
This would mean a possible alliance with China stil, France will fall anyway, and now there is a whole southern front missing to waste troops/naval power on. This would mean war with US could also be avoided longer (and their early lend-lease decreased). Now almost all German forces could be focused on the East, with China providing a good distraction in Asia.
There are of course a lot of IF's, but what do you guys think?
The Dev Eu4 stream yesterday reminded me how little a navy and British naval landings mean if you control all the land
This would mean a possible alliance with China stil, France will fall anyway, and now there is a whole southern front missing to waste troops/naval power on. This would mean war with US could also be avoided longer (and their early lend-lease decreased). Now almost all German forces could be focused on the East, with China providing a good distraction in Asia.
There are of course a lot of IF's, but what do you guys think?
The Dev Eu4 stream yesterday reminded me how little a navy and British naval landings mean if you control all the land
If Germany lets the Soviet Union post troops in German or German occupied territory...
Leaving aside the value of sneak attacks, whether joining the Axis was a time winning move, Soviet diplomats did ask to join the Axis. Had the Germans accepted their offer, then the Soviets would have been legally obligated to go to war with the USA if the USA declared war against any of the members of the Axis (per terms of the various treaties; it's complicated) and would have been entitled to the spoils of the war.
Now, I suppose Stalin could renege on the deal, but I also don't suppose the Soviets would join the Axis without some kind of consideration in either Eastern Europe, India, or Asia. (My memory is foggy, but I seem to recall discussions between German and Soviet diplomats suggesting the Soviets head into India.) Stalin may be a bit paranoid, but he's not an idiot. If the Soviet Union is getting something from the deal, and if time is on the side of the Soviet Union anyway, fighting alongside Germany isn't that bad of an idea.
After all, with no invasion of its home territory, what kind of military industry do you think would be in place by, say, 1945, with the Soviets building up the whole time? I wager it would be enough to make even Hitler reconsider the viability of Barbarossa.
The vastly different ideas about the Soviet Union share of the Axis partition of the world was actually what derailed those negotations. The Germans for very obvious reasons wanted to direct Soviet attentions towards India, as it would have brought them into war with the United Kingdom. Stalin, not being an idiot, didn't fall for that. He was interested in expanding Soviet influence in the Balkans, Bulgaria in particular.
Let me quote the mintues of a meeting between Molotov and Ribbentrop on November 14th 1940 to illustrate that point:
"The questions which interested the Soviet Union in the Near East concerned not only Turkey, but Bulgaria ... the fate of Rumania and Hungary was also of interest to the Soviet Union and could not be immaterial to her und any circumstances. It would further interest the Soviet Government to learn what the Axis contemplated with regard to Yugoslavia ... Greece ... and Poland ... (Molotov)
He could only repeat again and again that the deceisive question was wether the Soviet Union was prepared and in position to co-operate with us in the great liquidation of the British Empire. On all other questions we would easily reach an understanding if we could succed in extending our relations and in defining the spheres of influence. Where the spheres of influence lay had been repeatedly stated. (Ribbentrop)
Quoted from Roberts, Geofrey: Stalin's Wars - From World War to Cold War 1939-1953, p.51.
In essence the Soviet Union was asking for a buffer of neutral or Soviet controlled/alligend states in eastern Europe as a security against potential future German agression. Since Hitler wanted the Balakans (and Rumania's oil in particular) under his firm controle and he would not bargain away potential allies in a coming war with the Soviets there was no real chance of reaching an agreement.
Where the China and Japan example is concerned, I'd like to note that a lot of people seem to assume that it was Japan's fate to allign with the Axis. In fact Hirohito and and a sizeable amount of the court establishment and civilian government where very wary of being drawn into an alliance with Hitler. For a long time the hope was that Japan might somehow bring the Chinese War to a succesful conclusion and (having presented them with a fait acompli) resestablish some form of working relations with the US and Britain. So as mentioned by others already, it would be very interesting to see Japans national tree to see if there is an option to try and remain unaligned.