Hitler Portrait

[GsusNSV]

Wait, I know about the law in Germany regarding Nazi material, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing pictures of Hitler in Newspaper articles, books, and other media. Why would it be banned specifically from games.

Games are entertainment. The other things you listed are either education or art. (Which is totaly fine for this law.)

I think Paradox goes with a very safe approach here. To black out the picture, was a work of 5 minutes to an hour. (I would think.) That against the slight risk of a lawsuite, (which would delay the relase in germany and other USK areas by much) is very easy decision for a company.

 

[Korashy]

Games are entertainment. The other things you listed are either education or art. (Which is totaly fine for this law.)

I think Paradox goes with a very safe approach here. To black out the picture, was a work of 5 minutes to an hour. (I would think.) That against the slight risk of a lawsuite, (which would delay the relase in germany and other USK areas by much) is very easy decision for a company.

HOI didn't have the right flag either, it's odd to consider games as toys when they can be rated 18. But I definitely understand the reason for it as a whole.

 

[Maizel]

HOI didn't have the right flag either, it's odd to consider games as toys when they can be rated 18. But I definitely understand the reason for it as a whole.

I don't understand it much, to be honest. I understand that Paradox does it, so as to be able to sell their game in a major European market. I just don't understand the reasons behind why an animated portrait of Hitler should be censored.

What do they think would happen? World War III? A big resurgence in Neo-Nazism, Or millions of people being offended to their very core? I am sure people who lean towards Neo-Nazism, know what Hitler looks like. I am sure that those people who somehow get offended by an animated portrait of Hitler, knows what he looks like, too. And what is the point of censoring something, when it is clear to everyone what the censored thing is or is meant to represent?
I really don't see the point. And not doing, or saying something which is true or factual, just because it might offend people is the worst possible reason not to say or do these things.

Now, it's just just a game, and I'm not gonna run off to create #freeHoI4, but this kind of reasoning and mindset kills many initiatives and discussions about important issues right out of the gate, and it is quite annoying.

Censoring this in a World War II game just seems utterly pointless to me.

 

[potski]

Paradox have to submit their game in Germany and many other countries for a rating on the content of whether it is suitable for different age groups. Germany also has specific anti-Nazi laws that would be taken into account in judging the content. You may not understand them, but they were implemented for a damn good reason after the war to prevent any resurgence of Nazism. It's a shame that you never got taught any history in school to understand why Germany did this.

 

[Korashy]

I don't understand it much, to be honest. I understand that Paradox does it, so as to be able to sell their game in a major European market. I just don't understand the reasons behind why an animated portrait of Hitler should be censored.

What do they think would happen? World War III? A big resurgence in Neo-Nazism, Or millions of people being offended to their very core? I am sure people who lean towards Neo-Nazism, know what Hitler looks like. I am sure that those people who somehow get offended by an animated portrait of Hitler, knows what he looks like, too. And what is the point of censoring something, when it is clear to everyone what the censored thing is or is meant to represent?
I really don't see the point. And not doing, or saying something which is true or factual, just because it might offend people is the worst possible reason not to say or do these things.

Now, it's just just a game, and I'm not gonna run off to create #freeHoI4, but this kind of reasoning and mindset kills many initiatives and discussions about important issues right out of the gate, and it is quite annoying.

Censoring this in a World War II game just seems utterly pointless to me.

I grew up in Germany and moved to the US when I was 16. I remember my grandmother dating a man her age, who was basically my step grandpa (they never married, but were together for years). He was a pretty wealthy man, and was an all around good natured and kind old man. Generally he was always at my grandma's place, but he also had his own house, and one time I was at his house, and he told me to just play while he went to check on his yacht. So I'm playing around and I find this cupboard, I open it and inside was basically a shrine to Hitler (now as a kid I didn't really know wtf it was). That was in the house of a guy who've I've never seen make racist remarks, who employed foreigners without issue, and who apparently somehow had some fascination with Hitler. I have no idea why he had that, he died a few years later, maybe he was in the Hitler youth and shit just stuck or maybe it was his fathers and he just left it there, idk. But so yeah, I get it, Hitler still holds an odd fascination for people, and while everyone pretty much could easily conjure up a mental image of Hitler in their mind, it doesn't have to be right in front of you in things that give you a positive experience (I.E. having fun conquering with Germany).

 

[AluminumSoldier]

Paradox have to submit their game in Germany and many other countries for a rating on the content of whether it is suitable for different age groups. Germany also has specific anti-Nazi laws that would be taken into account in judging the content. You may not understand them, but they were implemented for a damn good reason after the war to prevent any resurgence of Nazism. It's a shame that you never got taught any history in school to understand why Germany did this.

Banning things doesn't keep them from returning. It only makes them more attractive to those who are interested in being rebellious. Censoring Hitler's face and the swastika has not, does not, and will not prevent more Nazi's from existing, it only gives them a mysteriousness and sense of taboo that make them more attractive. Only by shining the light on Hitler, his ideas, and the symbols of his regime will they ever lose their power to inspire others like him. Recently, Mein Kampf was put up for sale in Germany, and sold out quite quickly. Many were worried this would mean a resurgence in Nazism, but the opposite is true. When people can critically examine the ideas found inside the book and discuss them openly, their idiocy quickly becomes apparent. The mystery fades.

Hitler WAS the leader of Nazi Germany, and the Swastika WAS on their flag. Censoring either only continues to give them both a power that they no longer deserve.

That said, Paradox needs to make money, and so as long as Germany maintains their censorship laws, then Paradox will need to comply with them if they want to sell in Germany. Paradox wants to make games, not political statements, and that is fine with me. But don't suggest that these laws do any actual good in preventing a resurgence of Nazism. Censorship is anathema to a free society.

 

[Korashy]

Banning things doesn't keep them from returning. It only makes them more attractive to those who are interested in being rebellious. Censoring Hitler's face and the swastika has not, does not, and will not prevent more Nazi's from existing, it only gives them a mysteriousness and sense of taboo that make them more attractive. Only by shining the light on Hitler, his ideas, and the symbols of his regime will they ever lose their power to inspire others like him. Recently, Mein Kampf was put up for sale in Germany, and sold out quite quickly. Many were worried this would mean a resurgence in Nazism, but the opposite is true. When people can critically examine the ideas found inside the book and discuss them openly, their idiocy quickly becomes apparent. The mystery fades.

Hitler WAS the leader of Nazi Germany, and the Swastika WAS on their flag. Censoring either only continues to give them both a power that they no longer deserve.

That said, Paradox needs to make money, and so as long as Germany maintains their censorship laws, then Paradox will need to comply with them if they want to sell in Germany. Paradox wants to make games, not political statements, and that is fine with me. But don't suggest that these laws do any actual good in preventing a resurgence of Nazism. Censorship is anathema to a free society.

To be fair, it's not like Mein Kampf wasn't easily available before. It saw a spike in interested because of all the controversy and media around it. Had the copyright quietly expired, I doubt it would have had such a surge in interest.

 

[AluminumSoldier]

To be fair, it's not like Mein Kampf wasn't easily available before. It saw a spike in interested because of all the controversy and media around it. Had the copyright quietly expired, I doubt it would have had such a surge in interest.

You're right, that's my mistake.

 

[SDSkinner]

Because in German law, video games are no works of art or adult hobby, they are defined as childrens toys.

Wait, no Hitler action figures in Germany? Who is Superman supposed to fight?

 

[Reezy]

Wait, no Hitler action figures in Germany? Who is Superman supposed to fight?

Batman, apparently.

 

[GermanPower]

This has been beaten to death. Germany's a safe space country. In order to sell you've gotta be extra super safe! So I totally get the reason for censoring the German copy. I could really careless for the non-sense going on in Germany.

It is rather annoying every paradox game I've gotta replace the flag and I don't understand if they are hiding Hitler in German copies why they wouldn't add in the real flag of Germany during the era for US and UK releases. Don't entirely get it. But it's whatever in the end. I'd like to see it changed because it's silly..but hey it's just replacing a GFX for me. Any point of contention that it shouldn't be done in US and UK releases is hog wash. Yet it seems paradox will stay that way until we are far enough away like the many other horrid regimes emblems shown in PI games but have better PR because of time or being the victor.

 

[OrangeWarbear]

There is no special law in Germany that prevents paradox from showing Hitlers face or that of other german politicians. The only thing which is prohibited by law is the use of so called anticonstitutional symbols. They simply want to be on the save side. Nothing else.

 

[Thiomay]

This isn't about germans being to scared of hitlers face or name as with voldemort in the harry potter universe. It's about german laws not entirly appreciatng videogames yet and PDX not wanting to take any pointless riscs. Laws are often behinde socity plus it's not like videogames are taken seriously in gerneral. Germans are generally more open with confronting the resent past than austirans. Often also in a comic way. (youtube link, profanity warning)

Recently, Mein Kampf was put up for sale in Germany, and sold out quite quickly. Many were worried this would mean a resurgence in Nazism, but the opposite is true. When people can critically examine the ideas found inside the book and discuss them openly, their idiocy quickly becomes apparent. The mystery fades.

It was the critial, commented version that sold out.

 

[kalauer]

Banning things doesn't keep them from returning. It only makes them more attractive to those who are interested in being rebellious. Censoring Hitler's face and the swastika has not, does not, and will not prevent more Nazi's from existing, it only gives them a mysteriousness and sense of taboo that make them more attractive. Only by shining the light on Hitler, his ideas, and the symbols of his regime will they ever lose their power to inspire others like him. Recently, Mein Kampf was put up for sale in Germany, and sold out quite quickly. Many were worried this would mean a resurgence in Nazism, but the opposite is true. When people can critically examine the ideas found inside the book and discuss them openly, their idiocy quickly becomes apparent. The mystery fades.

Hitler WAS the leader of Nazi Germany, and the Swastika WAS on their flag. Censoring either only continues to give them both a power that they no longer deserve.

That said, Paradox needs to make money, and so as long as Germany maintains their censorship laws, then Paradox will need to comply with them if they want to sell in Germany. Paradox wants to make games, not political statements, and that is fine with me. But don't suggest that these laws do any actual good in preventing a resurgence of Nazism. Censorship is anathema to a free society.

Germans do not want extremist people, that of course exist, to go to demonstrations carrying a picture of Hitler or symbols related to Nazi-Germany in front of them. Does this seem unreasonable to you? If it were not for this law, people would be free to use the very liberal right to demonstrate and freedom of speech in Germany to re-enact all of the well known propaganda exploits of the Nazis.

That is not about burying the past. As was mentioned, Mein Kampf is now free to sell, but in a commented Version (althoug hthere always wer and will be uncommented ones of course). In fact, at the "Institut für Zeitgeschichte" [http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/aktuelles/themen/edition-mein-kampf/], several scientists spend years doing so to present a version that deconstructs and analyzes the points Hitler raised in it.

You can do this with a book. But you can't with symbols. The symbols banned in Germany have just one meaning: hate. So why would we want to see them in society?

That HoI4 is influenced by that is just, as stated here, playing it safe from PDS. They may ask official instances in Germany whether the face would be a problem but I guess they just didn't care enough. And rightfully so. It seems, to some people, Hitler's face is much more important than to PDS.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Why would someone who finds the whole concept of Nazi Germany so abhorrent, terrifying and pregnant with malice be playing a WW2 grand strategy game in the first place?

 

[Thiomay]

Why would someone who finds the whole concept of Nazi Germany so abhorrent, terrifying and pregnant with malice be playing a WW2 grand strategy game in the first place?

To stop Nazi Germany for example? What better motivation than an obvious villain? Or with the new politics mechanics people may want to redeem germany by changing it from the inside. As stated before and before this is not about people being unable to confront germany's past it's about a cautious reaction to an outdated law that doesn't take video games into account.

That said I have no problem with a blacked out portrait. It's fitting.

 

[Ted52]

To stop Nazi Germany for example? What better motivation than an obvious villain? Or with the new politics mechanics people may want to redeem germany by changing it from the inside. As stated before and before this is not about people being unable to confront germany's past it's about a cautious reaction to an outdated law that doesn't take video games into account.

That said I have no problem with a blacked out portrait. It's fitting.

I actually agree. I am all against censorship, but the villain feel the portrait has to it is a perfect way to solve the difficult situation Germany has.

 

[potski]

Yes, this is exactly correct.

The video game regulations exist. The German anti-Nazi law exists. Paradox live within them. Discussions about why they exist invites discussion about matters which are not allowed by forum rules. Censorship exists. Who knew?

The game will ship with Hitler's portrait blacked out, and I suspect that is just for financial reasons, so they ship one version of the application on Steam to all parts of the world.

You tick a box if you want to see his face. Nothing more, nothing less. You make the choice.

There is no concern over getting a mod. There are no issues with checksums for MP or ironman achievements. Daniel confirmed in WWW he could do it on the version installed on his PC in Sweden, but that he chose not to. Jake confirmed he could do it, if he travels back to the UK for the holidays, and wants to install it on his laptop.

The only uncertainty is whether people registered with Steam in Germany can do it. I suspect they can't. But someone could put a mod on Steam Workshop that they could download in seconds. Purely graphics mods don't affect the checksum, and also cause no issues with MP/ironman mode.

I would do a mod and make it available for release, but I would give the picture a comedy mustache and evil eyes.

 

[jalapen0]

Meh, I will "correct" my game. And I will be Germany too. Not because I agree with ideology or any of that stuff. Its because its fun to be an asshole. I'm not pink fairy goody two shoes in Skyrim either. I'll be a good boy in RL. I'm gonna be a dick in games.

 

[Ted52]

Meh, I will "correct" my game. And I will be Germany too. Not because I agree with ideology or any of that stuff. Its because its fun to be an asshole. I'm not pink fairy goody two shoes in Skyrim either. I'll be a good boy in RL. I'm gonna be a dick in games.

Ye. I think most people will play Germany. It is by far the most favorite nation of the community.

Shit. We are all literally Hitler. BLACKFACE HITLER!