Hit formula for weapons?

[f98alda]

And in regards to mass drivers - consider that their accuracy is much lower than lasers, so every point of evasion is a bigger loss in overall damage dealt.

True, but (at least according to my calculations), you have to get to about 80% evasion (at 0 armour) to have equal DPS, making the mass driver always better in the early game, as you don't get that much evasion until much later (if at all).

You choose the weapon depending on what you are planning to fight.

Sure, except in the early game, I have been unable to conjure up an even remotely probable situation where you would choose red lasers over mass driver 1.
So, regardless of what I plan to fight in the early game, I always choose mass driver since it is always better.
If you can provide an early game scenario (that is, before destroyers) where lasers are better than mass drivers, I would very much like to see it.

Your argument holds for the late game when you have access to all types of weapons, but currently, there doesn't seem to be any reason to pick laser above mass driver as a starting weapon, except as a handicap.
To make matters even worse, the first mass driver is better in most real cases than the blue laser, which means that if you want to run lasers, you have to get to UV lasers to have a fighting chance against the starting mass drivers.

 

[Shoobs]

Logging in to say that in practice... tier 3 massdrivers were eaten alive by tier 1 lasers, most other things remaining equal except the enemy had a mixed destroyer/corvette fleet instead of my pure corvette fleet.

And they didn't have shields, I did.

 

[Risa]

True, but (at least according to my calculations), you have to get to about 80% evasion (at 0 armour) to have equal DPS, making the mass driver always better in the early game, as you don't get that much evasion until much later (if at all).


Sure, except in the early game, I have been unable to conjure up an even remotely probable situation where you would choose red lasers over mass driver 1.
So, regardless of what I plan to fight in the early game, I always choose mass driver since it is always better.
If you can provide an early game scenario (that is, before destroyers) where lasers are better than mass drivers, I would very much like to see it.

Your argument holds for the late game when you have access to all types of weapons, but currently, there doesn't seem to be any reason to pick laser above mass driver as a starting weapon, except as a handicap.
To make matters even worse, the first mass driver is better in most real cases than the blue laser, which means that if you want to run lasers, you have to get to UV lasers to have a fighting chance against the starting mass drivers.

Simply put, mass driver's damage is bugged in 1.3. They erroneously put (max_dam + min_dam) into column of max_dam.

 

[f98alda]

Logging in to say that in practice... tier 3 massdrivers were eaten alive by tier 1 lasers, most other things remaining equal except the enemy had a mixed destroyer/corvette fleet instead of my pure corvette fleet.
And they didn't have shields, I did.

If they had equal fleet power, but with destroyers mixed in, then they are supposed to win (destroyers are supposed to be corvette killers, after all, and they had to have more ships if they had equal fleet power, offsetting the weapon tech).

 

[DarkFenX]

The way I'd put it, evasion counters accuracy, and tracking counters evasion. The difference is pretty subtle, but the max() in formula makes accuracy and tracking different. Namely, accuracy is always useful, but tracking is only useful up to the point where it fully counters evasion. So accuracy helps you hit battleships, but tracking doesn't play much role there. On the other hand, even 100% accuracy by itself is going to have a low hit rate against high-evasion corvettes, so you need tracking there.

Do evasion and accuracy have upper cap of 100?

 

[f98alda]

Simply put, mass driver's damage is bugged in 1.3. They erroneously put (max_dam + min_dam) into column of max_dam.

Bringing the max damage down by the min damage amount would probably bring the mass drivers down to about the same level as lasers. I will check this later tonight.

 

[jju_57]

Do evasion and accuracy have upper cap of 100?

No. Whirlwind missile have 200% evasion. Some Unbidden ships have 110% evasion. Highest weapon is 100% but you can increase that via combat computers.

 

[Knightroglycerine]

But doesn't all of this mean that accuracy is a redundant stat? Couldn't you just make the formula

DPS = base damage x rate of fire x max(1, tracking - evasion)

where you multiply the base damage with the now removed accuracy stat?

Edit: the proposed formula makes no sense, but the idea still stands, see below.

Rate of fire is important because of overkill, where a high rate of fire is better against larger numbers of small ships. You still have a reduced chance of hitting a high evasion target with a low tracking weapon. So I feel that this formula accomplishes exactly the same things, but without the confusing accuracy stat.

 

[Risa]

For example, consider two weapons of the same rate of fire:
A: damage per shot = 6, acc = 90%, tracking = 30%
B: damage per shot = 9, acc = 60%, tracking = 30%.
Against a battleship (evasion = 5%), their performances are the same. Against a corvette (evasion = 60%), A will out-perform B.
If you merge acc and tracking, you can't get such result.

 

[Knightroglycerine]

For example, consider two weapons of the same rate of fire:
A: damage per shot = 6, acc = 90%, tracking = 30%
B: damage per shot = 9, acc = 60%, tracking = 30%.
Against a battleship (evasion = 5%), their performances are the same. Against a corvette (evasion = 60%), A will out-perform B.
If you merge acc and tracking, you can't get such result.

You can, though I did it wrong. The correct way to do it is:

DPS: base damage modified by (100% + tracking - evasion, max 100%)

A: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 30%
B: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 10%

A 6 vs battleship, 4.2 vs corvette
B: 6 vs battleship, 3 vs corvette

A and B have the same dmg output vs battleship, A is superior vs corvette. There is no accuracy stat.

 

[Risa]

You can, though I did it wrong. The correct way to do it is:

DPS: base damage modified by (100% + tracking - evasion, max 100%)

A: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 30%
B: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 10%

A 6 vs battleship, 4.2 vs corvette
B: 6 vs battleship, 3 vs corvette

A and B have the same dmg output vs battleship, A is superior vs corvette. There is no accuracy stat.

Then what about destroyer (evasion = 25%)?

 

[Knightroglycerine]

Then what about destroyer (evasion = 25%)?

A deals 6 vs destroyer, B deals 5.1. So A is more effective vs destroyers.

If it is a problem that A deals the same damage vs destroyers and battleships, then the numbers have to be tweaked to change that.

 

[DarkFenX]

You cannot achieve the same behavior as with accuracy no matter what you do. It has two branches (no idea what's correct term for that in englsh). You can make it work for just one of them.

cth = acc - max(0, eva - trk)
branch 1, eva > trk: cth = acc - eva + trk
branch 2, trk > eva: cth = acc

Your formula doesn't conform to branch 2. It doesn't limit chance to hit vs ships with low evasion.

 

[f98alda]

Bringing the max damage down by the min damage amount would probably bring the mass drivers down to about the same level as lasers. I will check this later tonight.

This turned out to be a little too much (then lasers became the dominant choice). However, bringing the max damage down from 17 to 15 seems to be about right. Then mass drivers are just slightly better right at the start, with lasers becoming better once you get a bit of armour (15% or so). Mass drivers would still be better if the opponent started using shields.
You would have to have a lot of evasion before the lasers are better at 0 armour.

To me, this seems to be where it should be.

Numbers, DPS, with mass drivers updated as per above (15 max damage):

at armour 0, evasion <60:
mass driver: 0,2
red laser: 0,18

at armour 15%, evasion <60:
mass driver: 0,175
red laser: 0,18

at armour 0, evasion 70%:
mass driver: 0,179
red laser: 0,16

 

[Risa]

This turned out to be a little too much (then lasers became the dominant choice). However, bringing the max damage down from 17 to 15 seems to be about right. Then mass drivers are just slightly better right at the start, with lasers becoming better once you get a bit of armour (15% or so). Mass drivers would still be better if the opponent started using shields.
You would have to have a lot of evasion before the lasers are better at 0 armour.

To me, this seems to be where it should be.

Numbers, DPS, with mass drivers updated as per above (15 max damage):

at armour 0, evasion <60:
mass driver: 0,2
red laser: 0,18

at armour 15%, evasion <60:
mass driver: 0,175
red laser: 0,18

at armour 0, evasion 70%:
mass driver: 0,179
red laser: 0,16

Have you tested it? Because in lower tier, it should be rather close to laser. Higher tier L size does fall behind a little bit, but not too far. If you are interested in a strict equal performance, try this: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...apon-types-out-of-wrack.979735/#post-22043270

 

[f98alda]

No, I haven't tested. This is purely theoretical calculations. I also don't think they need to be absolutely equal, but there should at least be reasonable situations where each is the better choice.

 

[jju_57]

You can, though I did it wrong. The correct way to do it is:

DPS: base damage modified by (100% + tracking - evasion, max 100%)

A: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 30%
B: damage per shot = 6, tracking = 10%

A 6 vs battleship, 4.2 vs corvette
B: 6 vs battleship, 3 vs corvette

A and B have the same dmg output vs battleship, A is superior vs corvette. There is no accuracy stat.

I can get a BB's evasion to 15 so this then blows the formula away. You would need to prohit evasion stats from changing.

 

[Risa]

I also don't think they need to be absolutely equal, but there should at least be reasonable situations where each is the better choice.

Indeed. Though if I were to design weapons, I would assign them equal basic values first, then balance their special bonuses, just like paradox did in 1.2. Only when it's difficult to balance their special bonuses (like missiles currently), I would consider adjusting basic values. That's another topic, of course.

 

[Brawler]

If you have opportunity to research each weapon type (Fanatic Militarist) what would be the preferred weapon type for each slot so you can maximise hit chance and dps?

My preferences are:

Small = Plasma (good hit chance, melts armor)
Medium = Auto-Cannon (good hit chance for size due to rate of fire)
Large = Missiles (good at hitting corvettes etc. I find large weapons not very useful due to hit chance other than missiles)
XL = Undecided yet usually whichever I have unlocked first.
PD = I use Flak on destroyers when I get it but generally I don't bother with normal PD slots.
Torpedo = Not sure when to use these really since other weapons seem to outshine them...

Usually my setup will look like this:
[Corvettes] S=Plasma
[Destroyers] M=Auto-Cannon, S=Plasma (1M slot for Flak later in the game)
[Cruisers] L=Missiles,M=Swarmer/Whirlwind (due to rate of fire boost from computer, fire ze missilez!)
[Battleship] Usually all slots missiles or kinetics until i have some form of L artillery or XL weapon. Experimenting with carrier type setup. Really can't decide what to do with these guys.

I find the above combination works well for me in the early/mid game however it probably isn't optimal and I haven't really put it to the test against any end game crisis or fallen empire battles so maybe it's no good late game. Feel free to share any criticism of the above or what works best for you.

 

[jju_57]

All depends on what you are facing. But for Unbidden or anyone with high evasion I always will now go with DD's - 2xS - Autocannon, 2xM - Whirlwind Missiles, BB's - 1xXL -Giga cannon, 3xL - Kinetic Artillery, 1xL - Marauder Missile. I then build evasion corvettes with cheapest stuff possible. Build in 1 BB, 2 DD, 4 Corvette ratios. Guaranteed easy wins.